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Thread: North-African admixture in Europe (Dienekes K12b, 2012)

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    White Anglo Saxon Protestant, they were the ruling class in America even today (the Bushes, the Clintons, the Waltons etc), and they traditionally despised populations such as Irish Catholics who posed a threat to their position as ruling class.
    Yes I agree and they might have been involved with the assassination of JFK. JFK was the only Catholic president.

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    Here are images of Moors or Berbers:







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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Here are images of Moors or Berbers:






    Now you are showing your full-blown Afrocentrist/Nordicist agendas, no longer even trying to disguise them.

    Only two of these paintings are from the Middle Ages, from the "Book of Games" and the "Cantigas de Santa Maria" of King Alfonso the Wise (13th century AD), and unfortunately for the fantasies of both Afrocentrist and Nordicist charlatans the vast majority of "Moors" are actually portrayed like this in those books:












    The few sub-Saharan African types shown among them are usually servants or foot-soldiers, like these two among the soldiers escorting Christian prisoners:



    Now from the "Book of Games":













    In conclusion: certainly not the "Negroes" of Afrocentric/Nordicist dreams. Many of them are even portrayed with reddish and blondish beards. Plus almost all of them, even the majority of the few ones portrayed with a darker appearance, have obviously Caucasian features. In fact, the only way of telling most of them apart from the Christians also portrayed in these books is by the Muslim garbs they wear, not by any physical traits. So much for the fantasies and dishonest manipulations of Afrocentrist/Nordicist charlatans. The number of sub-Saharan African types shown in these two books are minimal, and usually shown in subservient roles (servants/slaves & mercenaries) to the Moors & Arabs.

    And Alessandro de' Medici was not really any "Moor" but part black African from his mother's side. In another thread you already tried a similar tactic with Juan de Pareja, another descendant of black slaves.

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Just for to say: original Berbers look much more European than average North African, look at Zidane.
    Anyway the last Emir of Sicily was a Berber (Benavert) and he was describe as a red-bearded.
    Medieval muslims were not black, only americans can believe in such bullshits.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Just for to say: original Berbers look much more European than average North African, look at Zidane.
    Anyway the last Emir of Sicily was a Berber (Benavert) and he was describe as a red-bearded.
    Medieval muslims were not black, only americans can believe in such bullshits.
    Hey! Why don't you pay attention! -- I never said Berbers were black. What I said was that many Berbers were dark-skinned and to Europeans from the north they looked black (probably from the summer heat Berbers turn very dark brown). This is why the myth of the black moor came into existence. If the Berbers had not been dark skinned no myth would have been created. Yes the vast majority of the Spanish Muslims were white but there was a significant minority of Berbers, probably around 20%. All those pictures that you saw from Drac are Spanish Muslims not Berbers or Arabs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    All those pictures that you saw from Drac are Spanish Muslims not Berbers or Arabs.
    That could well be the case for the drawings that represent events taking place in Iberia itself, but unfortunately for your assertion many of those drawings I posted represent events taking place in North Africa. For example, the first drawing I posted portrays a Spanish Christian army joining forces with a Moroccan Muslim army against a common enemy in North Africa itself:

    http://warfare.totalh.net/Cantiga/Ca..._Maria-181.htm

    The medieval Spanish scribes who made these drawings portray the Muslims there with pretty much the same generally light complexions and features as they do the ones in Iberia. It doesn't look at all that they made any significant differentiation between the phenotype of Iberian Muslims and those of the Berber/Arab Muslims from North Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Hey! Why don't you pay attention! -- I never said Berbers were black. What I said was that many Berbers were dark-skinned and to Europeans from the north they looked black (probably from the summer heat Berbers turn very dark brown). This is why the myth of the black moor came into existence. If the Berbers had not been dark skinned no myth would have been created. Yes the vast majority of the Spanish Muslims were white but there was a significant minority of Berbers, probably around 20%. All those pictures that you saw from Drac are Spanish Muslims not Berbers or Arabs.
    That might very well be the case for the drawings portraying things happening in Iberia itself, but unfortunately for your assertion many of these drawings are in fact portraying things that happened in North Africa. For example, the first drawing I posted shows a Spanish Christian army joining forces with a Moroccan Muslim army against a common enemy in North Africa:

    http://warfare.totalh.net/Cantiga/Ca..._Maria-181.htm

    The medieval Spanish scribes who made these drawings portray the Muslims there with pretty much the same generally light complexions and features as the ones from Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    All those pictures that you saw from Drac are Spanish Muslims not Berbers or Arabs.
    That might very well be the case for the drawings portraying things happening in Iberia itself, but unfortunately for your assertion many of these drawings are in fact portraying things that happened in North Africa. For example, the first drawing I posted shows a Spanish Christian army joining forces with a Moroccan Muslim army against a common enemy in North Africa:

    http://warfare.totalh.net/Cantiga/Ca..._Maria-181.htm

    The medieval Spanish scribes who made these drawings portray the Muslims there with pretty much the same generally light complexions and features as the ones from Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    That might very well be the case for the drawings portraying things happening in Iberia itself, but unfortunately for your assertion many of these drawings are in fact portraying things that happened in North Africa. For example, the first drawing I posted shows a Spanish Christian army joining forces with a Moroccan Muslim army against a common enemy in North Africa:

    http://warfare.totalh.net/Cantiga/Ca..._Maria-181.htm

    The medieval Spanish scribes who made these drawings portray the Muslims there with pretty much the same generally light complexions and features as the ones from Iberia.
    What do pictures have to do with reality? Artists could have colored them green or yellow for all we care! If your strange claim that Arabs and Berbers were so light-skinned, then how did the word "moro" or "moreno" come about??? They both mean dark skinned or dark complexioned. In Brazil it means black! Granted the vast majority of the Iberian Muslims were European. However, the majority of the fighters against the Christian Armies in Iberia were either Berber or Black (Arabs had long disappeared from the gene pool by the 11th century). When white Spaniards and other northern Europeans saw these enemies -- especially against the Castilians and Leonese -- they thought they were black or near black. If not so then how does this myth of the "Black Moor" come into existence or the words mentioned above??? Did they pop out of the sky? Is there something that your genius mind has ignored or forgotten?

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    Here are pictures of Berbers from the internet. Granted they have changed somewhat from ancient times due to SSA and European mixtures. But in general they do not look like Europeans.



    I picked the types that represent the majority. there are some extremes of course:

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Medieval muslims were not black, only americans can believe in such bullshits.
    Muslim is not a race, Muslim is a religion. Saying "Muslims are not Black" is like saying "Americans are not Black".

    Well, most of Americans aren't Black, and the majority of Medieval Muslims also weren't Black - but some were.

    This Medieval sculpture shows a Moorish knight, if I am not mistaken:

    http://41.media.tumblr.com/3338cd079...m02o1_1280.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Muslim is not a race, Muslim is a religion. Saying "Muslims are not Black" is like saying "Americans are not Black".

    Well, most of Americans aren't Black, and the majority of Medieval Muslims also weren't Black - but some were.

    This Medieval sculpture shows a Moorish knight, if I am not mistaken:

    http://41.media.tumblr.com/3338cd079...m02o1_1280.jpg

    That's St. Maurice, who was neither "Moorish" nor Muslim. He was a Christian Egyptian who joined the Roman army (Theban legion.) The above statue is from 13th century Germany and it is purely romanticized iconography from a time when the myth of the "blackamoor" was starting to take on some people's imagination, usually people who had actually never seen "Moors" (or Egyptians, for that matter) in their lives. Earlier depictions of him do not show him as a black African, like this IX-X century Latin manuscript:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    That's St. Maurice, who was neither "Moorish" nor Muslim. He was a Christian Egyptian who joined the Roman army (Theban legion.) The above statue is from 13th century Germany and it is purely romanticized iconography from a time when the myth of the "blackamoor" was starting to take on some people's imagination, usually people who had actually never seen "Moors" (or Egyptians, for that matter) in their lives. Earlier depictions of him do not show him as a black African, like this IX-X century Latin manuscript:

    Yes you are right that most northern Europeans have never seen a black person. However, if you bother to read history many English, French, German, and even Scandinavian warriors went to Spain and fought the Moors during the 12th and 13th centuries. They saw first hand what the Muslims looked like. Since most of the Muslim warriors were Berbers and blacks during the Crusades in Iberia (11th - 13th centuries). And since the Almoravides, who during the 11th century conquered parts of what we know as Mauritania, Senegal, Ghana, brought many blacks as slaves to Iberia and were used as soldiers, when the northern Europeans fought them they thought they were all black! When these northern Europeans went back to their homes they brought the myth of the Black Moor, which is false, but never the less it has some truth in that Berbers turn very dark when exposed to sun and they were lumped together with blacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    You are always distorting what I say or don't pay attention. I never said Arabs were all black. I don't know why you keep harping about this. I only said that some Yemenis probably had some people that looked like mulattoes. This is why I showed you the pictures. But you distort everything and then accuse me of saying they were all black. All I know is that in Andalusia or Spain the Arab nobility preferred northern girls with white skin, blue yes, and blond hair. That's is all. I hope you finally get it and stop trying to distort my statements.
    Do not confuse Al-Andalus with the current Andalusia or Spain.

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