K12b North-African admixture in Europe (Dienekes K12b, 2012)

[Drac II]

You are always distorting what I say or don't pay attention. I never said Arabs were all black. I don't know why you keep harping about this. I only said that some Yemenis probably had some people that looked like mulattoes. This is why I showed you the pictures. But you distort everything and then accuse me of saying they were all black. All I know is that in Andalusia or Spain the Arab nobility preferred northern girls with white skin, blue yes, and blond hair. That's is all. I hope you finally get it and stop trying to distort my statements.

Your original statement was that Arabs were either blacks or heavily admixed with them since ancient times. You have been modifying this claim since you have been shown evidence to the contrary.

 

[Degredado]

"Arab" is as much of an umbrella term as "Latin", really. We all know there are black/mulatto Arabs in North Africa, Yemen, Saudi Arabia; there are Arabs from Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq who could easily pass for being European; and you have everything in between, all over the Arab world. We should keep in mind that the intermixing between "original" Arabs and Africans (both North Africans and Sub-Saharans) only really began with the Islamic conquests. The big question is, how promptly were the conquered/enslaved Arabized populations accepted as legitimate Arabs? If this assimilation process began immediately after the conquests and slave trade in the 7th century, then we could assume that "Arabs" already had some African ancestry as early as the Umayadd period. But my guess would be that the Umayadd conquerors of Spain were almost purely Levantine/Semitic, probably looking like modern-day Lebanese, while the Berbers who accompanied them and of course the later Almoravids and Almohads came in all shades, as they carried a strong NW African element (and a little bit of SSA) in addition to their Middle Eastern component.

 

[Drac II]

"Arab" is as much of an umbrella term as "Latin", really. We all know there are black/mulatto Arabs in North Africa, Yemen, Saudi Arabia; there are Arabs from Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq who could easily pass for being European; and you have everything in between, all over the Arab world. We should keep in mind that the intermixing between "original" Arabs and Africans (both North Africans and Sub-Saharans) only really began with the Islamic conquests. The big question is, how promptly were the conquered/enslaved Arabized populations accepted as legitimate Arabs? If this assimilation process began immediately after the conquests and slave trade in the 7th century, then we could assume that "Arabs" already had some African ancestry as early as the Umayadd period. But my guess would be that the Umayadd conquerors of Spain were almost purely Levantine/Semitic, probably looking like modern-day Lebanese, while the Berbers who accompanied them and of course the later Almoravids and Almohads came in all shades, as they carried a strong NW African element (and a little bit of SSA) in addition to their Middle Eastern component.

Judging by the fact that there were even African slave revolts against the Arabs during the early Islamic period I would say that their integration into Muslim society must have been rather low. Arabic literature also has plenty of very offensive and racist remarks about black Africans, even in popular literature like "The Arabian Nights" black Africans are scorned and treated like slaves and idiots. It does not give the impression at all that early Islam was very embracing of black Africans. The islamization of Berbers is a different matter because they were not black.

 

[Degredado]

Judging by the fact that there were even African slave revolts against the Arabs during the early Islamic period I would say that their integration into Muslim society must have been rather low. Arabic literature also has plenty of very offensive and racist remarks about black Africans, even in popular literature like "The Arabian Nights" black Africans are scorned and treated like slaves and idiots. It does not give the impression at all that early Islam was very embracing of black Africans. The islamization of Berbers is a different matter because they were not black.

That's true, but let's not forget that racism has never quite prevented "racists" (especially males) from having plenty of children - legitimate or not - with people of other races.

 

[Johannes]

That's true, but let's not forget that racism has never quite prevented "racists" (especially males) from having plenty of children - legitimate or not - with people of other races.

That's right. After the so-called conquest of southern Iberia the Arabs in Andalusia constantly insulted any Christian who had a light complexion and hair by calling them "sons of white women" or "sons of slaves" or "weak or effeminite" but at the same time would try to buy a northern "slave" girl Iberia or Germany and add her to his harem or marry a Gothic or light skinned woman in order to make themselves look "white." The Arabs were very proud of their race or tribe but it did not stop them from mixing their blood with blonde or light skinned women. By the 10th century the Arab Emirs (later Caliphs) had mixed so much with northern Iberian women that they had to dye their hair and beards black in order to look "Arab."

 

[Johannes]

"Arab" is as much of an umbrella term as "Latin", really. We all know there are black/mulatto Arabs in North Africa, Yemen, Saudi Arabia; there are Arabs from Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq who could easily pass for being European; and you have everything in between, all over the Arab world. We should keep in mind that the intermixing between "original" Arabs and Africans (both North Africans and Sub-Saharans) only really began with the Islamic conquests. The big question is, how promptly were the conquered/enslaved Arabized populations accepted as legitimate Arabs? If this assimilation process began immediately after the conquests and slave trade in the 7th century, then we could assume that "Arabs" already had some African ancestry as early as the Umayadd period. But my guess would be that the Umayadd conquerors of Spain were almost purely Levantine/Semitic, probably looking like modern-day Lebanese, while the Berbers who accompanied them and of course the later Almoravids and Almohads came in all shades, as they carried a strong NW African element (and a little bit of SSA) in addition to their Middle Eastern component.

Wrong: Only the Syrians would have been "Levantine/Semitic" with a strong dose of Greeks and Italians. The Yemenis or southern Arabs would have been mixed to a certain extent. Even if the Arabs came in all kinds colors or phenotypes, there must have been some mixture with SSA. It has been a long time since I read Baxter Wolf, Kenneth (8 May 2014). Christian Martyrs in Muslim Spain. Cambridge University Press. pp. 14–15. ISBN 1107634814, but I remember somewhere he uses an example of an Arabized Gothic writer who complained about how the Arabs in Andalusia during the 8-9th centuries constantly discriminated against the Goths and stated that "the Arabs (or Muslims) have wooly hair while us (Goths) have straight or wavy hair." This is clear proof that Arabs had some SSA DNA already in the early Middle Ages. The writer's name was (I believe) Ibn al-Qutiyya. A MUwallad historian of the Muslim Invasion and a descendant of King Wittiza.

 

[MOESAN]

Please read posts 87 and 90. There it clearly explains that the Yemeni or southern Arabs had mixed with SSA since ancient times. Again I am not saying all looked like mulattoes -- some were but not all -- and many simply looked Semitic or Mediterranean. However, Yemenis have 80% or more J1!!! As the articles state, most of the SSA DNA came from females.

You don't read acutely what I wrote, Johannes:
Bedawins were surely the most genuine Arabs in Yemen, I'm not saying true Arabs were autochtonous to Arabia, even lesser in Yemen!!! other Yemenites, sedented, are not "pure" Arabs on the Bedawin model, they show connexions NOT ONLY with SSA people but in some cases with Veddoid Indians; in towns, some show strong connexions with North Near-Eastern people; even Mongols did some intrusions in arabic lands! But ofr me the Bedawins are a good example of what were the Arabs in the Middle Ages;
some autosomes studies show two sorts of Bedawins, different enough, but they don't precise the geographic or ethnic afiliation;
to conclude, the autosomes of Yemenite Jews show almost NO SSA admixture! And I'm tempted to think these very southern Jews are a remnant of primitive Semites, with only a little bit more of 'west-asian' compared to ordinary Bedawins or Arabs, what is not surprising.
No offense

 

[Johannes]

Somehow you got a wrong impression of reality, like you wanted this to happen. Perhaps, because personally you put blond girls much higher on the pedestal of beauty? However this is not a universal thing. Others perceive beauty differently.

Of course you are right. Beauty is a subjective thing. BUT I am only talking about the Emirs and Caliphs of Andalusia. They prefered blondes, whether from Spain or Northern Europe. However, I am sure they had a variety of different types of beauties on the harem, but blondes were probably the majority. The Arab historians and writers mentioned this and it's in all the books written on Muslim Spain.

 

[Drac II]

Wrong: Only the Syrians would have been "Levantine/Semitic" with a strong dose of Greeks and Italians. The Yemenis or southern Arabs would have been mixed to a certain extent. Even if the Arabs came in all kinds colors or phenotypes, there must have been some mixture with SSA. It has been a long time since I read Baxter Wolf, Kenneth (8 May 2014). Christian Martyrs in Muslim Spain. Cambridge University Press. pp. 14–15. ISBN 1107634814, but I remember somewhere he uses an example of an Arabized Gothic writer who complained about how the Arabs in Andalusia during the 8-9th centuries constantly discriminated against the Goths and stated that "the Arabs (or Muslims) have wooly hair while us (Goths) have straight or wavy hair." This is clear proof that Arabs had some SSA DNA already in the early Middle Ages. The writer's name was (I believe) Ibn al-Qutiyya. A MUwallad historian of the Muslim Invasion and a descendant of King Wittiza.

There is no such statement in that book:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....th,_Christian_Martyrs_in_Muslim_Spain,_EN.pdf

Plus the Arabs characterized black Africans as "wooly haired", not themselves:

https://books.google.com/books?id=g...ture for the lowest forms of bondage.&f=false

The Arabs considered blacks to be suited by nature for the lowest forms of bondage. One tenth-century Arabic account describes them as "malodorous, stinking, wooly-haired, with uneven limbs, deficient minds, and depraved passions". Ibn Khaldun considered black Africans to be the only people who accepted slavery "because of their low degree of humanity and their proximity to the animal stage". The enslavement of blacks was as unproblematic as the domestication of beasts of burden. The Muslims enslaved Christians and Jews as well, but Africans were apparently treated much worse. (page 32)

So this is actually more evidence against your strange claims, not in favor of.

 

[Johannes]

There is no such statement in that book:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....th,_Christian_Martyrs_in_Muslim_Spain,_EN.pdf

Plus the Arabs characterized black Africans as "wooly haired", not themselves:

https://books.google.com/books?id=g...ture for the lowest forms of bondage.&f=false

The Arabs considered blacks to be suited by nature for the lowest forms of bondage. One tenth-century Arabic account describes them as "malodorous, stinking, wooly-haired, with uneven limbs, deficient minds, and depraved passions". Ibn Khaldun considered black Africans to be the only people who accepted slavery "because of their low degree of humanity and their proximity to the animal stage". The enslavement of blacks was as unproblematic as the domestication of beasts of burden. The Muslims enslaved Christians and Jews as well, but Africans were apparently treated much worse. (page 32)

So this is actually more evidence against your strange claims, not in favor of.

Yes yes. I know right now I dont have the luxury of cross checking the facts like you do but I have read much more than you and I know there is a statement that exists but I just need to find it. I know it exist because it I rememeber it.

Arabs were not white, OK? They may be "caucasians" but they were dark-skinned and had mixed with SSA (at least the Yemenis had) and did not look anything like Europeans. Why you argue about them being fair skinned or like Europeans is so ridiculous, it's amazing. Only a stubborn guy like you can do this.

 

[Johannes]

You don't read acutely what I wrote, Johannes: Bedawins were surely the most genuine Arabs in Yemen, I'm not saying true Arabs were autochtonous to Arabia, even lesser in Yemen!!! other Yemenites, sedented, are not "pure" Arabs on the Bedawin model, they show connexions NOT ONLY with SSA people but in some cases with Veddoid Indians; in towns, some show strong connexions with North Near-Eastern people; even Mongols did some intrusions in arabic lands! But ofr me the Bedawins are a good example of what were the Arabs in the Middle Ages; some autosomes studies show two sorts of Bedawins, different enough, but they don't precise the geographic or ethnic afiliation; to conclude, the autosomes of Yemenite Jews show almost NO SSA admixture! And I'm tempted to think these very southern Jews are a remnant of primitive Semites, with only a little bit more of 'west-asian' compared to ordinary Bedawins or Arabs, what is not surprising. No offense

Yes you are right: however even the Bedouins Arabs and Jews have SSA mixture. According to the new Allentoft and Haak Admixture Analysis (2015) Bedouins have two kinds: A and B: Bedouin A has 70-73% Middle Eastern, 16%-19% European, and 9%-11% SSA. Bedouin B have 90%- 92% Middle Eastern, 4%-5% European, and 4%-5% SSA. Yemenis have a very similar amount of SSA as Bedouins: Yemenis have 70%-73% Middle Eastern, 13%-15% European, and 10%-15% SSA. Yemeni Jews have 82%-87% Middle Eastern, 8%-14% European, and 4% SSA. So yes, Bedouin Jews do have a more pure Semitic DNA but they still have some the black DNA. It appears that Bedouin B and Bedouin Jews have almost exact DNA and proves that they were the same people. However, the still had black DNA. It's not significant.

 

[Degredado]

Johannes, why does it seem so inconceivable to you that many Arabs, especially from the Levant, look no different from (southern) Europeans? Not every Arab is brown-skinned, curly-haired and hook-nosed, you know. Consider this: even today, when Syrians, Lebanese and Jordanians have around 5% SSA admixture on average, most of them would still fit in in Greece, Iberia or Italy - now imagine their ancestors 13-14 centuries ago, before the Arabic slave trade.

 

[Johannes]

Johannes, why does it seem so inconceivable to you that many Arabs, especially from the Levant, look no different from (southern) Europeans? Not every Arab is brown-skinned, curly-haired and hook-nosed, you know. Consider this: even today, when Syrians, Lebanese and Jordanians have around 5% SSA admixture on average, most of them would still fit in in Greece, Iberia or Italy - now imagine their ancestors 13-14 centuries ago, before the Arabic slave trade.

Did you read the post 126? In there I stated that, yes, Levantine Arabs did look very similar to southern Italians or Greeks. When they entered Iberia they probably passed for Iberian or Hispano-Romans in Andalusia. But Arabs at that time probably had much more SSA than 5%. Why dont you check out Allentoft and Haak analysis? It shows Yemenis as 10-15% black and Syrians as 6-7% Black. I know wooly hair does not determine "blackness" but most Arabs had curly or wooly hair.

 

[Degredado]

Did you read the post 126? In there I stated that, yes, Levantine Arabs did look very similar to southern Italians or Greeks. When they entered Iberia they probably passed for Iberian or Hispano-Romans in Andalusia. But Arabs at that time probably had much more SSA than 5%. Why dont you check out Allentoft and Haak analysis? It shows Yemenis as 10-15% black and Syrians as 6-7% Black. I know wooly hair does not determine "blackness" but most Arabs had curly or wooly hair.

But what makes you think Arabs had more SSA admixture back then than they do today? What would have caused this "deafricanization" of Arabs in the Middle East? The Crusaders alone? Surely not. All logic and historical evidence indicate that Arabs have a stronger SSA element today, after their thousand-year slave trade, than in the 8th century.

 

[Sile]

Johannes, why does it seem so inconceivable to you that many Arabs, especially from the Levant, look no different from (southern) Europeans? Not every Arab is brown-skinned, curly-haired and hook-nosed, you know. Consider this: even today, when Syrians, Lebanese and Jordanians have around 5% SSA admixture on average, most of them would still fit in in Greece, Iberia or Italy - now imagine their ancestors 13-14 centuries ago, before the Arabic slave trade.

Because the levant was not always Arab.................do you know when Arab went from the southern arabian peninsula and headed into the Levant.?

Some have guessed that only at the demise of the Romans in Egypt was their any Arab migration ( into Egypt ) of any note.

 

[joeyc]

But what makes you think Arabs had more SSA admixture back then than they do today? What would have caused this "deafricanization" of Arabs in the Middle East? The Crusaders alone? Surely not. All logic and historical evidence indicate that Arabs have a stronger SSA element today, after their thousand-year slave trade, than in the 8th century.

Modern Levantines have loads of Anatolian admixture. So do Iraqis who have both Iranians ans Caucasus ancestries.

Ancient Levantines looked no different from modern ones and they were totally different from Southern Europeans. I've met many Palestinians and Syrians IRL, mostly refugees, and they looked no different from lighter North Africans to me. Sure a few could pass but most look "Arab" because they are Arabs.

 

[Drac II]

But what makes you think Arabs had more SSA admixture back then than they do today? What would have caused this "deafricanization" of Arabs in the Middle East? The Crusaders alone? Surely not. All logic and historical evidence indicate that Arabs have a stronger SSA element today, after their thousand-year slave trade, than in the 8th century.

When it comes to historical issues, don't expect much common sense and logic from "Johannes". Your above statement seems self-evident to anyone, but not to him. By his "logic" we should also expect Brazil, USA, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, etc. to be less influenced by sub-Saharan Africans today than 400 years ago.

 

[Drac II]

Yes yes. I know right now I dont have the luxury of cross checking the facts like you do but I have read much more than you and I know there is a statement that exists but I just need to find it. I know it exist because it I rememeber it.

Arabs were not white, OK? They may be "caucasians" but they were dark-skinned and had mixed with SSA (at least the Yemenis had) and did not look anything like Europeans. Why you argue about them being fair skinned or like Europeans is so ridiculous, it's amazing. Only a stubborn guy like you can do this.

Then perhaps you should first find the actual reference you think you remember instead of attributing it to a source where it is not found.

I am still waiting for you to find me even one example of ancient Yemeni artwork showing a human face with sub-Saharan African features.

Curly hair is not exactly the same as "wooly-hair". Curly hair is not uncommon among Caucasians. The historical evidence shows that to the Arabs "wooly-hair" was something foreign and exotic which they mentioned when describing black Africans. Also, the standard of beauty in Arabic literature shows that they favored the lighter skin tones, while it also shows that they were very prejudiced against black Africans. This is what the actual evidence shows, not what you claim.

 

[Johannes]

Johannes, why does it seem so inconceivable to you that many Arabs, especially from the Levant, look no different from (southern) Europeans? Not every Arab is brown-skinned, curly-haired and hook-nosed, you know. Consider this: even today, when Syrians, Lebanese and Jordanians have around 5% SSA admixture on average, most of them would still fit in in Greece, Iberia or Italy - now imagine their ancestors 13-14 centuries ago, before the Arabic slave trade.

I never said ALL Arabs were brown-skinned or had wooly hair. I know there are all kinds of variations among the Arabs. I even showed pictures that showed the differences between them. However, all Arabs are not just Syrians, Jordanians, and Lebanese (of course some Arabs from the Levant pass for Southern Europeans!). I was talking about Yemenis (the ones who entered Spain). Drac has distorted what I was saying by claiming that I said ALL Arabs are black or part black. But that is not what I said. If you read post #87 you will see evidence from journals studying Yemenis and Ethiopians that Arabs from the SW of the Saudi peninsula already had SSA before the 8th century. We dont know how much it was but it was not significant.

 

[Johannes]

But what makes you think Arabs had more SSA admixture back then than they do today? What would have caused this "deafricanization" of Arabs in the Middle East? The Crusaders alone? Surely not. All logic and historical evidence indicate that Arabs have a stronger SSA element today, after their thousand-year slave trade, than in the 8th century.

I never said Arabs had "more SSA mixture back then than they do today." All I have been saying is that the Yemenis and probably some other Saudi Arabs had already mixed with Ethiopians and other blacks before the 8th century. The southern Arabs had less SSA DNA back then than they do today but they had mixed with blacks. How much we will never know. Either way the Arabs who conquered Iberia were dark-skinned and many had curly hair and from them the myth of the Arabs as the "Black-a-Moor" developed. If the Arabs were so fair-skinned as Drac thinks this myth would never have developed.