Meet The Proto-Indo-Europeans

[Yetos]

J1 origin is Caucasus areas around Nakh -Dagestan Azerbaijan to zagros mountains,
J2 is possible to originate from west part, around Georgia to Pontic mountains (modern N Turkey)
J2 is very near with Maykop culture, Halubes (χαλυβες) Hettits origin etc

so might speak that Semitic was also a Caucasian language (relative?) to IE that went far south to Ethiopeia mix with HG E and return as the Semitic we know.
trough is that as we Speak about IE 'invasion' we also have HG J invasion in middle East and Arabian peninsula.

so probably homeland of IE with Semitic was around Caucasus, from Maykop to North Iran,

Summerians
J2 is connected with Both,
J2 is next to Akkadian culture center, but is Semitic ?
It seems that J2 is towards Summerian Hurrian to some, IE to others
but surely pre-Semitic to all, that makes it a non Semitic language carrier

so J2 can explian a IE expand outside Kurgans from France to India leaving outside North of Danube and Caucas.


About Linguistic,
in my mother tongue exist a lot but that is not scientific
try Yehunda's book, he tried to connect Greek with Hebrew, but the result is amazing cause we find vocabulary common among even North IE with Aramaic,
compare Greek Helios Olympos with English Holy and semitic El arabic Al (Elohim Allach)

so the most possible I could find is either both IE and Elamitic came from same region away from the places we know, probably somewhere around caucas among Maykop to North Iran
either both IE and Akkadian were spoken in minor Asia before Hettits,

maybe exist a forth scenario except the impossible i describe above, which i did not imagine.

 

[Taranis]

try Yehunda's book, he tried to connect Greek with Hebrew, but the result is amazing cause we find vocabulary common among even North IE with Aramaic,
compare Greek Helios Olympos with English Holy and semitic El arabic Al (Elohim Allach)

Sorry, but this is completely false:

- Greek "Helios" is derived from Indo-European root for "sun". You have to remember that in Greek PIE *s- became *h-. Cognates of "Helios" include: Latin "Sol", Welsh "haul" (note that just like Greek, Brythonic developed *s- > *h), Latvian "saule", Polish "słońce", Russian "solntse", Hindi "suraja". As you can see, the word is firmly Indo-European.

- English "holy" is a cognate with German "heilig", Icelandic "heilagur", Gothic "hailags".

- the Semitic root is *ʔ-l-, rather than *h-l-.

As you can see these are completely different roots. I'm not denying that there are Semitic borrowings into Indo-European (in particular in Greek, compare "chrysos" and Akkadian "ḫurasu"), but the cognates that you propose are entirely false.

 

[Yetos]

Sorry, but this is completely false:

- Greek "Helios" is derived from Indo-European root for "sun". You have to remember that in Greek PIE *s- became *h-. Cognates of "Helios" include: Latin "Sol", Welsh "haul" (note that just like Greek, Brythonic developed *s- > *h), Latvian "saule", Polish "słońce", Russian "solntse", Hindi "suraja". As you can see, the word is firmly Indo-European.

- English "holy" is a cognate with German "heilig", Icelandic "heilagur", Gothic "hailags".

- the Semitic root is *ʔ-l-, rather than *h-l-.

As you can see these are completely different roots. I'm not denying that there are Semitic borrowings into Indo-European (in particular in Greek, compare "chrysos" and Akkadian "ḫurasu"), but the cognates that you propose are entirely false.

since I know well from the forum I accept that, although semitic sound from IE h-l- is not far,
especially heilig with Allah-Ellah h-l-g -l-h.

so plz guys put wrong in the above example.

 

[Goga]

A study from DNA tribes on the Sumerians: http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-08-01.pdf . According to me the vry first Sumerians belonged mostly to a Y-DNA hg. J2a!


The First Cities of Sumer and the Role of Early Population Strata in the Middle East

"History Begins at Sumer: Thirty Nine Firsts in Man’s Recorded History." Historical Background: Three Phases of Sumerian Civilization.
( 1 ) Founding of urban settlements during the Ubaid period
( 2 ) Dispersion of Sumerian populations to the Caucasus Mountains and Asia during the Uruk period (including related Kura-Araxes migrations, possibly related to the spread of satem IE languages)
( 3 ) Back-migrations to the Fertile Crescent (in response to events at the periphery of the Sumerian world) during the Middle Bronze Age.

( 1 ) Ubaid Period Foundations (6,500 – 3,800 BCE)

The foundations of Sumerian civilization were laid during the Ubaid Period (6,500 – 3,800 BCE). In this period, the first Mesopotamian cities were founded, starting with the world’s first capital, Eridu.


( 2 ) Uruk Period Dispersions in the Caucasus Mountains (4,000 – 3,100 BCE)

In Sumer, the following Uruk period (4,000 – 3,000 BCE see Figure 2) was characterized by large northward dispersions of migrants from the Mesopotamian heartland into the comparatively undeveloped region of the Caucasus Mountains. It is unknown why these populations chose to depart from the sophisticated Mesopotamian city-states for the wilderness areas to the north. However, Sumerian literature (such as the Atra-Hasis) suggests that class conflicts, environmental changes, and other social problems were beginning to degrade the quality of life in Mesopotamia.
In any case, archaeologists have documented several streams of Uruk emigrants that settled in all areas of the Caucasus, where new and innovative forms of culture quickly emerged. This northern cultural synthesis was exemplified by the rich burials of Maykop (in present day Adygea; see Figure 2), which integrated ideas from Central Europe (megalithic related), the Eurasian steppe, and West Asia (Mesopotamian, Eastern Anatolia, and the Southern Levant) to establish a new pattern of life based on cattle raising and symbolized by the golden bull of the Maykop kurgan (tumulus burial).
In Maykop and other centers near the Black Sea, Uruk colonists might have spoken early satem IE languages (see Figure 2), possibly derived from the CBMP related cultures that were transitioning to a more pastoral (animal herding) based economy that would later flourish on the Eurasian steppes during the Bronze Age.


( 3 ) Kura-Araxes Expansions and Secondary States in Asia (3,000 – 1,900 BCE)

Beginning around 3,000 BCE, the northward Uruk dispersions to the Caucasus Mountains came to an end. However, they were replaced by a new tide of Kura-Araxes expansions to the south, east, and west (2,500 – 2,000 BCE; see Figure 3). These Kura-Araxes migrations began among the progressive Caucasus Mountains societies (recently energized by Uruk period migrants) and spread outwards: first to Armenia, the Upper Euphrates, and Levant (Khirbet-Kerak); then to Daghestan and Western Iran; possibly even reaching Southwest Anatolia and Cyprus.9
In the same period (around 3,000 BCE), the Maykop culture moved southeast from the Black Sea toward the Caspian Sea, possibly contributing to the formation of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) of Central Asia (2,300 – 1,700 BCE).10 Although the reasons for these southward migrations are unclear, one related factor might have been the emergent Yamna culture north of the Black Sea.

 

[MOESAN]

Anatolians are Proto İndo-europan and Aryan people. Native Anatolians are still live my father is farmer , our villiage is descend of Mitanni there is lot of villiage descend of hitities,hurrians,lydians,pyrhgians etc.

it 's not a true answer to you but a complement of "information":
maybe the arguments developped in this paper are not completely new: it 's just the thought of some scholar: it's not too long to read and give some points
link:


INDOEU - freuindo.pdf

http://antiquitatis-notae.univ-paris1.fr/freuindo.pdf

Article de Jacques Freu
(à paraître dans le Bulletin de Res Antiquae)
LES INDO-EUROPEENS ET L’INDO-EUROPEEN :
ESSAI DE MISE AU POINT

 

[MOESAN]

in some parts (concerning the agricultrual skills of first I-E), it contradicts some of my thoughts: but he is more qualified than me!

 

[martiko]

in some parts (concerning the agricultrual skills of first I-E), it contradicts some of my thoughts: but he is more qualified than me!

the 'IE is not a people but a set of diverse and dissimilar languages, to begin no one can prove that there was a race IE and no one can prove that there is a language protIE and IE languages diversity ​​could be the interbreeding of different languages ​​in an area named the area augment. It would be needed to speak of language proto IE, find a language of auncienne bill whose languages every element would be predominant in various. And not a language of general agreement among different languages.

 

[MOESAN]

race (ligneage) and language are 2 different things, even if they can overlap in some way -
no first proto-I-Ean??? not very sure - too much common words, the more basic concerning basic life/family/body/... the more common, I think - I agree this proto-I-Ean and its first "sons" or "daughters" could very soon have been learned by populations speaking previously different languages and could have loaned a lot of foreign words, but the core of the language seems an unique population one... and the clear semantic filiation of words but their remote meanings results (significations drifts) seem proving they existed a long time ago and were passed long ago too?
if a creole language at first, it ought to be very ancient and had time to develop a very sophisticated grammar, ought it not?
a different languages platform giving birth to a kind of 'koine'??? too much ressemblances between old celtic and sanskritic by instance, for me...

 

[Aberdeen]

the 'IE is not a people but a set of diverse and dissimilar languages, to begin no one can prove that there was a race IE and no one can prove that there is a language protIE and IE languages diversity ​​could be the interbreeding of different languages ​​in an area named the area augment. It would be needed to speak of language proto IE, find a language of auncienne bill whose languages every element would be predominant in various. And not a language of general agreement among different languages.

Race and language are not the same thing. Nevertheless, if you ask any linguist, they'll tell you that there must have once been an Proto-Indo-European language that developed in a fairly compact area before spreading out to create the modern body of Indo-European languages in Europe and Asia. If you look at a map that shows where IE languages are, it becomes obvious that the most likely point of origin is somewhere in the vicinity of the Black Sea. There's a lot of evidence that the IE folk expanded from the Russian steppes to spread their language and the Bronze Age over a large area - read what Maciamo has written about that.

 

[Taranis]

if a creole language at first, it ought to be very ancient and had time to develop a very sophisticated grammar, ought it not?
a different languages platform giving birth to a kind of 'koine'??? too much ressemblances between old celtic and sanskritic by instance, for me...

This. The problem with the whole "Creolization" idea for the origin of the Indo-European languages is that it all points to a common - rather complex - grammar. Pidgin and creole languages tend to have a very simple grammar. So if Proto-Indo-European originated as a Creole, it would mean that it was simplified from something else, even more complex. And that just doesn't make sense to assume.

It makes much more sense to assume that there was a common proto-language that was, as Aberdeen said, spoken originally in a rather compact area, from where it spread out. Of course, the most probable homeland is the Pontic-Caspian steppe, but if you have adherents of other theories, they will point you to a different location.

 

[Vinnie]

North of Black Sea, steppe model at least for certain Indo-European tribes.