Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Normans, Gallo-Italics and Lombards DNA in Sicily

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-03-12
    Posts
    37
    Points
    6,288
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,288, Level: 23
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 262
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Brazil



    Normans, Gallo-Italics and Lombards DNA in Sicily

    Hello everyone!
    Is there a genetic study about Gallo-Italics of Sicily?
    They were colonizers and soldiers brought to Sicily by Norman invaders in the eleventh century from their homeland in North Italy (and France?). Their descendants are still there.


    Gallo-Italics of Sicily, also called Lombards of Sicily, are a linguistic minority living in Sicily, southern Italy, speaking an isolated variety of Gallo-Italic dialects (Western Lombard varieties in Sicily).

    Lombards of Sicily settled the central and eastern part of Sicily about 900 years ago, coming from the Northern Italy, during the Norman conquest of Sicily. Because of linguistic differences among the Gallo-Italics dialects of Sicily, it is supposed that there were independent immigration routes. From Piedmont, Liguria, Emilia, Lombardy they began to spread south, between the 11th and 14th centuries.

    The major centres where these dialects can still be heard today include Piazza Armerina, Aidone, Sperlinga, San Fratello, Nicosia, and Novara di Sicilia. Northern Italian dialects did not survive in some towns in the province of Catania that developed large Lombard communities during this period, namely Randazzo, Paternò and Bronte. However, the Northern Italian influence in the local varieties of Sicilian are marked.

    In the case of San Fratello, some linguists have suggested that the gallic-italic dialect present today has Provençal as its basis, having been a fort manned by Provençal mercenaries in the early decades of the Norman conquest (bearing in mind that it took the Normans 30 years to conquer the whole of the island).
    Last edited by alais; 16-03-12 at 21:51. Reason: fix

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Catchabus's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-06-09
    Posts
    39
    Points
    3,757
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,757, Level: 17
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 93
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2b1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Sicilian
    Country: United States



    There is a thread on this forum that discusses the genetic history of Sicily, with links to a couple papers (which at this point are dated): http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...ans-and-others

    Be warned, however, that the underlying data in the Di Gaetano paper may not be accurate. I ran all of the STRs from my ancestral town, Caccamo, through a haplogroup predictor and the I1s (M253) came back as I2a2a (old I21b, M223). There’s no doubt though that there was a strong Norman and Lombard influence, and not just in the places you mentioned. The Normans built the mother church in my town in 1090. Also, I speak the standard Sicilian dialect (as depicted in Cinima Paradiso, for example) and there are a number of examples where it is closer to French and Catalan than Italian.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-03-12
    Posts
    37
    Points
    6,288
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,288, Level: 23
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 262
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Catchabus View Post
    There is a thread on this forum that discusses the genetic history of Sicily, with links to a couple papers (which at this point are dated): http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...ans-and-others

    Be warned, however, that the underlying data in the Di Gaetano paper may not be accurate. I ran all of the STRs from my ancestral town, Caccamo, through a haplogroup predictor and the I1s (M253) came back as I2a2a (old I21b, M223). There’s no doubt though that there was a strong Norman and Lombard influence, and not just in the places you mentioned. The Normans built the mother church in my town in 1090. Also, I speak the standard Sicilian dialect (as depicted in Cinima Paradiso, for example) and there are a number of examples where it is closer to French and Catalan than Italian.
    Thank you! I'm talking about Lombard colonies in Sicily. They are still there and they still speak their own language. I guess they are a mix of Lombards (mostly Northern Italians, than plus French people from Provence and Brittany, and Normans).
    Last edited by alais; 12-06-12 at 11:47.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-03-12
    Posts
    37
    Points
    6,288
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,288, Level: 23
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 262
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Brazil



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm talking about these ones: "Oppida Lombardorum and U152".

    These are the Oppida Lombardorum in Sicily, their Lombard cities in Sicily:




    The Norman conquest of Sicily opened the door to a steady influx of ‘Latin Christian’ settlers and the creation of a string of new towns referred to as 'Oppida Lombardorum'. While the new immigrants were called ‘Lombards’, they were primarily made up of people from both Lombardia (Lombardy) and Piemonte (Piedmont). Given the high frequency of U152 in those sub-Alpine regions, it might help explain some but not all of U152 in Sicily. The centers – including Agira, Aidone, Butera, Caltagirone, Capizzi, Castrogiovanni (Enna), Maniace, Mazzarino, Nicosia, Piazza Armerina, Pietraperzia, Randazzo, San Fratello, Sperlinga, Vicari – grew rapidly into flourishing communities as a result of the ‘Lombard’ immigration. The bulk of the Lombards arrived between 1090 and 1120 and were responsible, together with the Norman/Swabian ruling class, in transforming Sicily from a Greek Christian/Muslim island into a Latin Kingdom. To this day, a dialect known as 'Siculo-Gallic' is spoken in some of these towns. The 'Castello di Lombardia' (Castle of Lombards) in Enna, named after the people who built/inhabited the castle during the Norman/Swabian period.


    http://u152.org/index.php?option=com...id=1&Itemid=61

    Is R1b U-152 their own Haplogroup? Can someone confirm this? Is there any kind of genetic study about them?
    Last edited by alais; 12-06-12 at 11:46.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-11
    Posts
    80
    Points
    2,627
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,627, Level: 14
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 123
    Overall activity: 16.0%


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by alais View Post
    I'm talking about these ones: "Oppida Lombardorum and U152".

    These are the Oppida Lombardorum in Sicily, their Lombard city in Sicily:




    The Norman conquest of Sicily opened the door to a steady influx of ‘Latin Christian’ settlers and the creation of a string of new towns referred to as 'Oppida Lombardorum'. While the new immigrants were called ‘Lombards’, they were primarily made up of people from both Lombardia (Lombardy) and Piemonte (Piedmont). Given the high frequency of U152 in those sub-Alpine regions, it might help explain some but not all of U152 in Sicily. The centers – including Agira, Aidone, Butera, Caltagirone, Capizzi, Castrogiovanni (Enna), Maniace, Mazzarino, Nicosia, Piazza Armerina, Pietraperzia, Randazzo, San Fratello, Sperlinga, Vicari – grew rapidly into flourishing communities as a result of the ‘Lombard’ immigration. The bulk of the Lombards arrived between 1090 and 1120 and were responsible, together with the Norman/Swabian ruling class, in transforming Sicily from a Greek Christian/Muslim island into a Latin Kingdom. To this day, a dialect known as 'Siculo-Gallic' is spoken in some of these towns. The 'Castello di Lombardia' (Castle of Lombards) in Enna, named after the people who built/inhabited the castle during the Norman/Swabian period.


    http://u152.org/index.php?option=com...id=1&Itemid=61

    Is R1b U-152 their own Haplogroup? Can someone confirm this? Is there any kind of genetic study about them?
    I know only a cluster of z326 that might be connected to the Lombards . In this case the blue pinpoints http://goo.gl/maps/VXxq

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-03-12
    Posts
    37
    Points
    6,288
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,288, Level: 23
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 262
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    I know only a cluster of z326 that might be connected to the Lombards . In this case the blue pinpoints http://goo.gl/maps/VXxq
    Is it connected to Lombards of Italy? The Langobards? Thanks.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-11
    Posts
    80
    Points
    2,627
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,627, Level: 14
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 123
    Overall activity: 16.0%


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by alais View Post
    Is it connected to Lombards of Italy? The Langobards? Thanks.
    Well, that is the theory since L48 is far more common north of the Alps.
    http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/gro...1/message/3573

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    26-01-09
    Posts
    624
    Points
    10,933
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,933, Level: 31
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 317
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: UK - Scotland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Some "Lombards" in Sicily were actually from what we now call Lombardy (Lombardia) like the Brescian Ghibellines settled at Corleone under the Emperor Frederick "Stupor Mundi" in the mid-13th century.

    However most North Italians ("Lombards") arrived in the late 11th and early 12th centuries to replace Muslim settlers in central and eastern Sicily.

    Most were from Liguria and south-east Piedmont, the modern provinces of Genoa, Savona and Alessandria.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-03-12
    Posts
    37
    Points
    6,288
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,288, Level: 23
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 262
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Some "Lombards" in Sicily were actually from what we now call Lombardy (Lombardia) like the Brescian Ghibellines settled at Corleone under the Emperor Frederick "Stupor Mundi" in the mid-13th century.

    However most North Italians ("Lombards") arrived in the late 11th and early 12th centuries to replace Muslim settlers in central and eastern Sicily.

    Most were from Liguria and south-east Piedmont, the modern provinces of Genoa, Savona and Alessandria.
    Thank you. Is there any genetic study about Piedmont and Liguria?

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    26-01-09
    Posts
    624
    Points
    10,933
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,933, Level: 31
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 317
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: UK - Scotland



    Quote Originally Posted by alais View Post
    Thank you. Is there any genetic study about Piedmont and Liguria?
    There is very little that I know of.

    Can anybody else help out here?

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-13
    Posts
    15
    Points
    4,762
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,762, Level: 20
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Italy



    On Family Tree DNA there is a person from San Fratello, one of the most important Lombard community in Sicily. He is R1b1a2a1a1b3c R-L2 (confirmed SNPs L2+, L20-, U106-).

    His ancestors could be from Northern Italy (Piedmont), but They could also come from further North, France.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-13
    Posts
    15
    Points
    4,762
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,762, Level: 20
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Italy



    Always on Family Tree DNA, there is also a person from Novara di Sicilia (another important Lombard community in Sicily) and He is R1a1a1 R-M417 (Confirmed SNPs L176.1-, M157.1-, M198+, M417+, M434-, M458-, M56-, M64.2-, P98-, PK5-).

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-13
    Posts
    15
    Points
    4,762
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,762, Level: 20
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Italy



    I didn't find any other probable Lombard of Sicily in FTDNA. The one from San Fratello is a true "sanfratellano", a true Lombard. I recognize him by the name of his ancestor (a personal name only used between gallo-italics people from San Fratello).

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-13
    Posts
    15
    Points
    4,762
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,762, Level: 20
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Italy



    An Overview of the Genetic Structure within the Italian Population from Genome-Wide Data

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0043759

  15. #15
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-02-14
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    1
    Points
    103
    Level
    1
    Points: 103, Level: 1
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 47
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-DF21
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5d

    Country: Italy



    Sicily

    Hello to everybody !

    I was reading the very interesting subjects treated within your forum and with true interest: the advent of the Normans, Lombards, etc. in the beautiful, highly, deeply historical and fascinating Island of Sicily;

    I am interested to knowing more about this; my paternal line haplogroup is R / DF21+, a confirmed direct 'grandson' of the R / L 21 Haplogroup; R / DF21 is considered to be british - celtic (from the british isles, the R / DF21 Haplogroup is about roughly 1900 to 3000 years old, a direct 'son' of the R / DF13 Haplogroup); my direct paternal line stationed in Sicily for many centuries, and specifically within that very same area that you mentioned about, i. e. - the known Gallo - Italic spoken language Area, including Sanfratello, Troina, Randazzo, Agira, Castrogiovanni (Enna), etc. ; I am trying to explore in more detail about the normans and my paternal line, and about the british celts in Sicily, apart the many other very interesting Settlers of those times; I don't know if my paternal line (R / DF21 haplogroup) came through the Piedmont/Lombard/Ligurian etc. Area before coming into Sicily, or directly from the established norman empire of the time (i. e. starting from 1065 circa and from the British Isles, parts of northern France, etc.); I will appreciate if anybody knows about specialized websites that treat about these subjects, and if anybody has any further ideas in this subject matter;

    thanks again, and regards to Everybody

  16. #16
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    824
    Points
    9,640
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,640, Level: 29
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 310
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    My greatgrandmother is from a gallo-italic city of Sicily.
    However lombards (but people from all Italy) settled many areas of Sicily after the norman conquest and the expulsion of the muslims, the actual sicilian-lombard speaking are just a little portion of the original settled, in fact there are a lot of dialectal influences in many cities especially from center and eastern part of the island.
    In my town there are a good number of word who derived from medieval lombard and most of these lombards were not from actual Lombardia but from Piemonte (Monferrato area) and according to some historians also some people from Provenza, Normandy and Brittany moved especially in Enna.
    Unfortunately as far as i know there aren't genetic studies about the gallo-italic speaking of Sicily, the city were this dialect is preserved the best is San Fratello in Messina province.


    In light blue: the cities when the gallo-italic language is spoken today.
    In dark blue: the cities when there is a good influence of the gallo-italic
    In purple: the ancient colonies of some gallo-italic, the influence in these cities is variable, also some districts of Messina were colonized



  17. #17
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    24-01-15
    Posts
    1
    Points
    494
    Level
    5
    Points: 494, Level: 5
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 56
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L21>DF13>DF21>s971
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5d

    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi, I appreciate very much your message, and the interesting chart of Sicily, thank you; my patrilineage resided within the city of Troina for several centuries (Troina, close to Agira); Troina (at the time Traina/Trayna, Tragena) was chosen by Roger I d'Hauteville as his main headquarters/military base during the thirty year military campaign of his in Sicily (for this also, and to this date, Troina is remembered in Sicily as the first capital of the norman empire in Sicily; just recently I came to know that, on 111 Y STR Markers, I have 95 Y STR Markers matching perfectly with a few family lines carrying old english surnames who have their deep roots within the British Isles : our most recent common ancestor lived between 750 and 1000 years ago (going through calculations with the many common novel variants that we share together, and the private novel variants founded for each one of us (we underwent altogether recent Sanger testing with our Y DNA, therefore we picked up many common novel variants with this method of Y DNA testing); all of this gave me a clearer picture and further confirmed my several previous Y DNA tests also related to my Y DNA Haplogroup, Subgroup, and Subtypes (typically british celtic), these ones that I share with the same family lines above mentioned, and all of this related to the history of the norman empire, including Sicily, and also the experience of my patrilineage that therefore migrated at the time from the British Isles through the old territories of France, all the way to Sicily; even the surname and its modest history coincides with all of the information and balances with the haplogroup, etc.; there are many (not in this very nice Forum page though) who still do not believe that in Sicily there are, up to this date, many inhabitants who directly descend from those settlers and colonials who left at the time the far northern territories of continental Europe, the British Isles, etc.; they wrongfully think that the northern people, who also first came into Sicily during the norman invasion, later left to return to where they came from; Sicily is a wonderful gathering of many ancient cultures and populations who truly made positive history, and not only in Sicily;

    I am glad that DNA testing can also contribute to confirming parts of history of Sicily, but this looks like is another little "battle" to be fought, but there are very old documents, apart highly reliable books of history, which all confirm many aspects of the true history of Sicily as well, and of its own people; Sicily has more history to be unfolded and it is all very fascinating;

    best regards to Everybody and thank you

  18. #18
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    15-03-15
    Posts
    1
    Points
    32
    Level
    1
    Points: 32, Level: 1
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 18
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    Hello,

    I luckily stumbled upon this thread when researching the history of dialects in Sicily.

    I've always been wildly fascinated with my family's background. My grandparents hail from Nicosia, in the province of Enna. Interestingly enough, they're fair skinned with blue eyes, and supposedly -- we have some aramaic heritage from way back. I would love to find out exactly where my ancestors came from before settling in Enna.

  19. #19
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    824
    Points
    9,640
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,640, Level: 29
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 310
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by britishceltic View Post
    Hi, I appreciate very much your message, and the interesting chart of Sicily, thank you; my patrilineage resided within the city of Troina for several centuries (Troina, close to Agira); Troina (at the time Traina/Trayna, Tragena) was chosen by Roger I d'Hauteville as his main headquarters/military base during the thirty year military campaign of his in Sicily (for this also, and to this date, Troina is remembered in Sicily as the first capital of the norman empire in Sicily; just recently I came to know that, on 111 Y STR Markers, I have 95 Y STR Markers matching perfectly with a few family lines carrying old english surnames who have their deep roots within the British Isles : our most recent common ancestor lived between 750 and 1000 years ago (going through calculations with the many common novel variants that we share together, and the private novel variants founded for each one of us (we underwent altogether recent Sanger testing with our Y DNA, therefore we picked up many common novel variants with this method of Y DNA testing); all of this gave me a clearer picture and further confirmed my several previous Y DNA tests also related to my Y DNA Haplogroup, Subgroup, and Subtypes (typically british celtic), these ones that I share with the same family lines above mentioned, and all of this related to the history of the norman empire, including Sicily, and also the experience of my patrilineage that therefore migrated at the time from the British Isles through the old territories of France, all the way to Sicily; even the surname and its modest history coincides with all of the information and balances with the haplogroup, etc.; there are many (not in this very nice Forum page though) who still do not believe that in Sicily there are, up to this date, many inhabitants who directly descend from those settlers and colonials who left at the time the far northern territories of continental Europe, the British Isles, etc.; they wrongfully think that the northern people, who also first came into Sicily during the norman invasion, later left to return to where they came from; Sicily is a wonderful gathering of many ancient cultures and populations who truly made positive history, and not only in Sicily;

    I am glad that DNA testing can also contribute to confirming parts of history of Sicily, but this looks like is another little "battle" to be fought, but there are very old documents, apart highly reliable books of history, which all confirm many aspects of the true history of Sicily as well, and of its own people; Sicily has more history to be unfolded and it is all very fascinating;

    best regards to Everybody and thank you
    Some peoples from Norman England moved to Sicily during the County of Sicily of Roger I. (Some British merchants moved to Palermo and Marsala between 1700 and 1800 but it is another story).

    "e favorisce l'immigrazione di francesi, inglesie lombardi, perripopolare le sue terre in seguito alle guerre, alle carestie e all’espatrio dei musulmani."

    "
    and promotes the immigration of French, British and Lombard (northern Italians), to repopulate his lands following the wars, famine and the expatriation of Muslims."

    http://www.stupormundi.it/ruggero_I.htm

  20. #20
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    824
    Points
    9,640
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,640, Level: 29
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 310
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by fray23 View Post
    Hello,

    I luckily stumbled upon this thread when researching the history of dialects in Sicily.

    I've always been wildly fascinated with my family's background. My grandparents hail from Nicosia, in the province of Enna. Interestingly enough, they're fair skinned with blue eyes, and supposedly -- we have some aramaic heritage from way back. I would love to find out exactly where my ancestors came from before settling in Enna.
    Nicosia is one of the Gallo-Italic speaking cities where the dialect is preserved better.
    I don't understand of what Aramaic heritage you speak because there weren't Arameans in Sicily, maybe some Judeoconversos?

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 33
    Last Post: 10-11-19, 23:39
  2. Normans vikings
    By motatalea in forum History & Civilisations
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 27-06-13, 12:18
  3. The Normans
    By Chris in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 30-10-12, 08:05
  4. Why did the Normans invade England ?
    By motatalea in forum History & Civilisations
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 24-04-12, 23:04
  5. North Italian R1b-U106 and the Lombards
    By iodalach_draiodoir in forum R1b
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 01-11-10, 17:59

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •