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Thread: "Northern" elites in Greece and Rome.

  1. #51
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    Albinism has nothing to do with ancestral markers, I see no reason to post about this. The text below the picture is nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Albinism has nothing to do with ancestral markers, I see no reason to post about this. The text below the picture is nonsense.
    Nope it has much to do,

    The myth of a Northern Blond Elite Blue eyes IE maybe even is a myth,

    as you see Albinism which in some villages show big % can also give results simmilar to Blondism,

    now conserning thatin frica thay eat Albinos,
    maybe the born of an albino child was like a messiah to some other cultures,

    what I mean the myth of Blond IE even in North Europe does not fit,
    Blondism is mutation in Baltic and not in Steppe,

    I post the link so some to understand that a IE in steppe might be a black R1b or R1a like in Africa,

    Mutations like blondism enter from Female population to IE populations


    Now in case of Balkanic and Ucraine population we see the red hair much North than the Tracians south,
    Blue eyes Budini are much North than Green eyes Thracians and we see no Mycenean Blond or Red but naibly a Brown from dark to light Brown,
    BROWN HAIR IS LIKE AN ALBINISM,
    BROWN HAIR MEANS LUCK OF COLOUR CHROMOSOME,

    IF IE were an elite from North then why Blond and red hair are even rare to Roman times to today?
    why they did not enter their genes in women that probably had weak hair colour chromosomes?

    kids with brown hair may even born more blond white colour,

    In Greece that phenomenon is strong,
    I was born Blond until 3 years old and now I am brown, Dark brown in winter light brown to almost orange at summer.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Forget about all these nordic fantasies...ancient greek elites where like your modern Greeks...South-East mediterranean in apperance.
    It's not at all obvious that it should be so. Modern Greece has received many populations during the past 2000 years. What's more, different areas were under different occupations. E.g. Crete has had 150 years of Andalusian Muslim occupation followed by 450 years of Venetian occupation and ending with 250 years of Turkish rule. Now none of the other regions in Greece had that. The Ionian islands were never under Turkish rule but most of mainland Greece had nearly 400 years of it. Morea had Frankish rule for centuries (250 years) - again, it's unique in that regard. As far as I know, the Slavs never reached Southern Greece and the Islands but Bulgars held Northern Greece for some time. Arvanites and Vlachs settled in Central (and Northern?) Greece and, according to some sources, Athens had a sizeable Arvanite community for a long time.

    So yeah...It's not at all obvious that A. Greeks and M. Greeks should look identical (not denying there's some kind of continuity) and it's not even obvious that among different regions, Greeks should look similar (as I said I find it surprising that we do).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boss View Post
    It's not at all obvious that it should be so. Modern Greece has received many populations during the past 2000 years. What's more, different areas were under different occupations. E.g. Crete has had 150 years of Andalusian Muslim occupation followed by 450 years of Venetian occupation and ending with 250 years of Turkish rule. Now none of the other regions in Greece had that. The Ionian islands were never under Turkish rule but most of mainland Greece had nearly 400 years of it. Morea had Frankish rule for centuries (250 years) - again, it's unique in that regard. As far as I know, the Slavs never reached Southern Greece and the Islands but Bulgars held Northern Greece for some time. Arvanites and Vlachs settled in Central (and Northern?) Greece and, according to some sources, Athens had a sizeable Arvanite community for a long time.

    So yeah...It's not at all obvious that A. Greeks and M. Greeks should look identical (not denying there's some kind of continuity) and it's not even obvious that among different regions, Greeks should look similar (as I said I find it surprising that we do).
    The difference is that these you call settlements were Elite except of Athens Arbanites estimated to 50-70 000 in Athens and Boiotia,
    in Crete Venicians were forbiden to take their families or to mary,
    only in Lasithi I think it was allowed to settle 10 000 venicians,

    If you are Cretan ask your self,
    what the job of καλημεριδες,
    and why in areas near Goergia Lyra sings.

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    From Wiki:

    Albinism (from Latin albus, "white"; see extended etymology, also called achromia, achromasia, or achromatosis) is a congenital disorder characterized by the complete or partial absence of pigment in the skin, hair and eyes due to absence or defect of tyrosinase, a copper-containing enzyme involved in the production of melanin. Albinism results from inheritance of recessive gene alleles and is known to affect all vertebrates, including humans. While an organism with complete absence of melanin is called an albino ( /ælˈbn/ American English,[1] or /ælˈbn/ British English)[2] an organism with only a diminished amount of melanin is described as albinoid.[3]

    As you can see, it's pretty clear there's no ancestral information to infer from this, so it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    From Wiki:

    Albinism (from Latin albus, "white"; see extended etymology, also called achromia, achromasia, or achromatosis) is a congenital disorder characterized by the complete or partial absence of pigment in the skin, hair and eyes due to absence or defect of tyrosinase, a copper-containing enzyme involved in the production of melanin. Albinism results from inheritance of recessive gene alleles and is known to affect all vertebrates, including humans. While an organism with complete absence of melanin is called an albino ( /ælˈbn/ American English,[1] or /ælˈbn/ British English)[2] an organism with only a diminished amount of melanin is described as albinoid.[3]

    As you can see, it's pretty clear there's no ancestral information to infer from this, so it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.
    ty, you just show me want I want you to see,

    some colours are due to a gene,
    some are due to lack of a gene
    enzymes production is not same to all humans cause sometimes the productivity is connected with the existance or lack of a gene

    Brown hair colour is like Albinism, lack of a gene that gives colour to hair

    brown hair people can change their hair by controling hormones, food, sunlight, mettals, natural
    blonde and red and black very difficult

    Both Tocharian mummies and Otzi have brown hair and black.
    ok Otzi was not IE but Tocharian mummies?
    (or Otzi was since G2a3?)

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    NO, it's not the same. Albinism is a disorder, having brown hair is not. What's your point then? are the most depigmented Finns and Scandinavians Albinos according to you? Sorry, but it makes no sense to talk about this here...I think you're twisting things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    NO, it's not the same. Albinism is a disorder, having brown hair is not. What's your point then? are the most depigmented Finns and Scandinavians Albinos according to you? Sorry, but it makes no sense to talk about this here...I think you're twisting things.
    ok,
    lets see, the photos of tocharian mumies is not a disorder,

    you are talking about the photo with the pakistani's right?

    and I ask you,
    if in a village we find no albinism for centuries,
    and in another we find very common,
    is n't that strange?

    now have you ever wonder why Albinism gives blonde and red hair?

    I don't say that Scans are albinos, I believe that the genes of Blonde and Red are founder mutattions of local populations or from a disosrter while brown or the lack of the colour gene might be an early protection against the disorder.

    IT IS COMMON PHENOMENA A BLOND SCAND OR RUS WHEN COMES TO GREECE TO HAVE SKIN BURN IN 1/2 -1 HOUR sun exposion,
    so maybe the order is after the disorter?

    TO END THIS
    I SAY THAT IE EITHER STEPPE, EITHER NEAR EAST WERE NOT BLONDES, NEITHER RED,
    BUT THEY GOT RED AND BLONDE FROM THE AREAS THEY ENTER.... FROM FEMALE POPULATION.

    IF IE WERE BLONDES THEN BALKANS SHOULD BE MORE BLONDES, CAUSE IF A STRONG GENE WITH A WEAK GENE MEET STRONG GIVES ITS ORDERS.

    my point is Brown Blond and red is a nature help to transform Albinism disorter to an order,

    an Albino has better chances in a dark forest of North than in Mediterrenean sea, so the % disorter has better chances to become order in one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    The difference is that these you call settlements were Elite except of Athens Arbanites estimated to 50-70 000 in Athens and Boiotia,
    in Crete Venicians were forbiden to take their families or to mary,
    only in Lasithi I think it was allowed to settle 10 000 venicians,

    If you are Cretan ask your self,
    what the job of καλημεριδες,
    and why in areas near Goergia Lyra sings.
    Arbanites:

    I've seen figures ranging from tens of thousands to half a million. Where do you get that figure from?

    As for Venice:

    "The application of Venetian law to the colony made it possible for the colonial power to create and maintain a fiction of ethnic distinctness. The Greeks were subordinate to the Latins economically, politically, and juridically, yet within a century of Venetian colonization, the ethnic differences between Latin and Greek Cretans in daily material life were significantly blurred. Members of the groups intermarried, many of them learned each other's language, and some even chose to worship by the rites of the other's church. "

    So what you say was true for the first 100 years but not true for the following 350+. Read McKee's book, there's much more to be said about it (I don't have it with me atm but I can quote many more of her passages if I need to).

    And yes I am Lasithiote Cretan (as in, actually born and raised there, not being Canadian or whatever of Cretan origin) and I know Cretan society really well. I know my neighbours' last names, I know what our accent sounds like and I know a great deal of the words our great grandparents used which are not used anymore. The words of Turkish and Venetian origin in particular used to be so numerous that I couldn't even understand what my great grandparents were talking about (some of them not having a formal education at all).

    The best counter-argument is that after their defeat by the Turks, many 'Latinised' Cretans probably migrated to Venice and so did the Muslims following the Cretan revolution (the entire community migrated to Turkey even though most of them were Cretan Greeks who had converted to Islam for taxation purposes and didn't even speak Turkish). But ofc, the Orthodox community remained.

    Oh also, let's not forget that when Fokas pwned the Arabs (Andalusians), he repopulated the Island with Byzantines (Romans!) from the rest of the Empire. So maybe many of us today don't have anything to do with the pre-Byzantine Crete as far as genetics are concerned...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boss View Post
    Arbanites:

    I've seen figures ranging from tens of thousands to half a million. Where do you get that figure from?

    As for Venice:

    "The application of Venetian law to the colony made it possible for the colonial power to create and maintain a fiction of ethnic distinctness. The Greeks were subordinate to the Latins economically, politically, and juridically, yet within a century of Venetian colonization, the ethnic differences between Latin and Greek Cretans in daily material life were significantly blurred. Members of the groups intermarried, many of them learned each other's language, and some even chose to worship by the rites of the other's church. "

    So what you say was true for the first 100 years but not true for the following 350+. Read McKee's book, there's much more to be said about it (I don't have it with me atm but I can quote many more of her passages if I need to).

    And yes I am Lasithiote Cretan (as in, actually born and raised there, not being Canadian or whatever of Cretan origin) and I know Cretan society really well. I know my neighbours' last names, I know what our accent sounds like and I know a great deal of the words our great grandparents used which are not used anymore. The words of Turkish and Venetian origin in particular used to be so numerous that I couldn't even understand what my great grandparents were talking about (some of them not having a formal education at all).

    The best counter-argument is that after their defeat by the Turks, many 'Latinised' Cretans probably migrated to Venice and so did the Muslims following the Cretan revolution (the entire community migrated to Turkey even though most of them were Cretan Greeks who had converted to Islam for taxation purposes and didn't even speak Turkish). But ofc, the Orthodox community remained.

    Oh also, let's not forget that when Fokas pwned the Arabs (Andalusians), he repopulated the Island with Byzantines (Romans!) from the rest of the Empire. So maybe many of us today don't have anything to do with the pre-Byzantine Crete as far as genetics are concerned...

    The story of Handakas is another story,
    repopulation was not done by the whole empire but mainly Ionia, and there are areas in Crete that almost from Minoan times are the same,
    Σητεια kai Γορτυνα are considered teritories with low mix.
    The case of Minoans from ancient times to today the major problem is the repopulation of the Island after Thera Volcano.and not Venice or Arabs,
    In whole Greece little are the considered Venice population areas, although many were under control.
    in case of Ottomans you know that Turks never settled Island that was property of Hamid's mother
    2 kind of Cretans are mentioned as Muslims, Hamindje in Syria, and a Village in Turkey,
    Back to geneticks,
    Sometimes isolated group of villages give more correct result,
    remember that in Greece even in small islands we avoid to mary closer than 2nd cousins,
    sometimes we bring the bride, sometimes the γαμπρος. there were villages that a foreigner if was good worker marry him with violence, remember that,

    Now about Numbers,
    once I was at Chania I lloked the Catholic church numbers, and they are almost the same with what they were before 150 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boss View Post
    It's not at all obvious that it should be so. Modern Greece has received many populations during the past 2000 years. What's more, different areas were under different occupations.
    No one denies that the Greeks have absorbed other people who have settled in Greek populated lands during the last 2000 years. But based on historical, genetical and antrhopological data we can definately take the position of a considerable genetic continuty among the Greek peoples.

    In short, Ancient Greeks are a mix of mostly pre-Greeks and IE Greeks. Modern Greeks are mostly pre-Greeks, IE Greeks and Hellenized people.
    Last edited by Dianatomia; 06-09-12 at 22:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Let's not mix up everything. I wrote that I expected the original Romans to be light-skinned, and of a more northern (read Central-West European, as opposed to East Mediterranean).

    As for the Greeks, I only said that the Mycenaeans (c. 1900-1100 BCE), especially in early centuries of their rule, were most probably a distinct ethnic group of (fair skinned/eyed) Indo-Europeans from the steppes (belonging to Y-haplogroup R1a and/or R1b). I specifically explained that the Greek classes almost certainly got mixed during the ensuing Dark Ages, so that Classical Greeks were already heavily hybridised, though with different admixtures depending on the regions. This hypothesis of regional genetic variations within ancient Greece is strongly supported by the present-day distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups (my example of Thessaly vs Crete).

    So I didn't said that the aristocracy of Classical Greek (C. 510-323 BCE) was fair-skinned/eyed. They were probably as mixed as modern Greeks in this regard, though probably lighter in average because Classical Greek imported a lot of Egyptian slaves that only blended with the rest of population from the late Antiquity and Middle Ages.

    Alexander the Great, who was blond with one blue eye (the other was brown), appears to have been an exception within Greek society in having a fair complexion. I merely hypothesised earlier in this thread that this could be because he had more Mycenaean (do Indo-European) blood in him, perhaps because Macedonian nobility didn't mix as much with the rest of the population during the Dark Ages.

    The Romans started intermarrying with the (dark-skinned/haired/eyed) Etruscans from the 3rd century BCE, and increasingly over the next centuries. The Romans also mixed with the Greeks from southern Italy around that time. By the 1st century CE, many Romans had also become hybridised, resembling more the Greeks (slaves excluded) than they had ever before.

    In the heydays of both Rome and Classical Greece, it appears to me that the elite of both countries were already considerably hybridised between Bronze Age Indo-Europeans and the earlier Neolithic population. Many great civilisations in history have actually arisen from an initial hybridisation between two populations. It was the case, for instance, of the Japanese (Yayoi + Jomon), the Persians (Indo-Europeans + Elamites), the Indians (Indo-Europeans + Dravidians), the Celts (Indo-Europeans + Megalithic people), the Greeks (Indo-Europeans + Neolithic population), the Romans (Indo-Europeans + Etruscans + Greeks), the British (ancient Britons + Anglo-Saxons + Normans), etc. In most of these cases, the arrival of new migrants/conquerors brought an unprecedented vitality and brought about the flourishing of a unique new culture (and often language too). Ethnic blending between very different peoples, perhaps because it enriches the local gene pool, is generally positive for the development of a population (at least for a few centuries, until the "boost" generated by the genetic mix settles down).



    I wrote that I thought of ancient Romans (not Greeks though) as more Central European in looks. I do no think at all that they looked Scandinavian/Nordic, but neither do I think that they look "Mediterranean", for the simple reason that there isn't a "Mediterranean" look. Spaniards look completely different from Greeks who look completely different from Palestinians, who completely different from Sardinians, who look completely different from Moroccans. Even Italian look quite different depending on the region. Some types are found exclusively in Sicily, others in Sardinia, and others still in Northern Italy. You won't find anybody who looks like Al Pacino in Lombardy (I mean among "pure" Lombards, not Sicilians who moved to Lombardy). There may still be Italian people who look like the ancient Romans I mentioned, but they are more common in northern Italy, and even more common in some parts of France or southern Germany.




    I never wrote anything about beards being related or unrelated to aristocracy. Why would you think that ? Many Roman emperors had beards, but many were clean-shaven too. It has more to do with fashion. Many medieval European kings had beards, but few of them did from the 17th century onwards.

    What I did write is that ancient Etruscans and Greeks, as depicted in arts, were often bearded (including Greco-Roman gods). They also always had curly hair (while Roman aristocrats of the 1st century BCE and CE usually had slightly wavy hair).
    I don't think haplogroups has anything to do with looks. And noble people intermarried with other noble people from neighboring countries to establish a stronger relationship.

    And I think you're forgetting Alexander the greats mother was Epirotan. And some sources doubt that his father was Philip.

    And If I remember right, some historians aruge that the ancient macedonians were Thracians/Illyrians but were eventually hellenized in culture.

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    Helots of Sparta. was a different case.Mostly were Messinians under Spartan rule who had to pay certain tax, and have a population control but could produce more agricultural goods for themselves.They were protected by the Spartan state.because they were considered state property.Even a Spartan citizen wasnt allowed to harm a Helot.(The CRYPTIA case is a different story)
    I m new to the forum and i noticed a high intellectual level.Good job.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The ancient Roman Republican elite in Latium had a strong Adriatic or Dinaric phenotypical element judging by busts and coin portraits of the Late Republic and Early Empire.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think overall, we agree that originally there was an Indo-European elite in both ancient Rome and Greece (and in many other places such as Persia and India), but over time due to admixture and socio-political changes it became less prominent. The Indo-European elite wasn't "Nordic" which is an 19th delusion, but they did have very light skin, eyes, and hair, compared to the native populations. I think this is confirmed by this one study (I can't remember where I found it) that measured skull width of Greeks, and they noticed that the lighter-haired ones usually had wider faces than the dark-haired ones. I think this supports the theory that Indo-Europeans had cold-adapted slightly "Mongoloid" traits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    I think overall, we agree that originally there was an Indo-European elite in both ancient Rome and Greece (and in many other places such as Persia and India), but over time due to admixture and socio-political changes it became less prominent. The Indo-European elite wasn't "Nordic" which is an 19th delusion, but they did have very light skin, eyes, and hair, compared to the native populations. I think this is confirmed by this one study (I can't remember where I found it) that measured skull width of Greeks, and they noticed that the lighter-haired ones usually had wider faces than the dark-haired ones. I think this supports the theory that Indo-Europeans had cold-adapted slightly "Mongoloid" traits.
    first of all with IEans we mean what?
    the baltics?
    the blondes?
    the steppe people?
    the anatolians?
    or the IE speakers?

    2nd do you know certain where IE was protospoken?
    steppe? baltic? midlle East, Zagros? Balkans(Varna)? outside India?Armenia?Georgia-Laz?

    3 are you sure that alpine anthropometrical race is connected with IE?

    4 have you ever thought that aryan nose or aquiline (eagle) nose might characteristic of IE?
    how many 'wide face' 'kighter skin' have that nose?
    how many wider face have wavy hair and not straw-straight?

    5 searching summerian language we see except Nostradic another propability also the Ur-Urartian,
    and the Akkadian vocabulary that exist in modern IE languages even in North IE or India,

    6 have you ever thought Otzi could speak IE?

    7 have you compare Varna-Balkanic culture with Kurgans, Egypt, Georgia, midlle East?

    8 a good question is why Balkanic and Ucraine IE burry their dead, and Indo-Iranians didn't

    9 with lighter skin you mean what? meditereneans are light or dark skin? where you put brown people?

    10 Inuit and Mongols are wide face, are they lighter skin? Nordic are lighter skin, are they wide face?
    I mean was the language of mongols or Inuit an IE language?

    11 try to connect tocharians with Dionysos campaign as Ptolemy say, why from Tocharians and west we have tombs, and why from Tocharians and East or south we don't?
    Tocharians were R1a, but they went to central Asia from minor Asia - middle East,
    why half R1a from Tocharians to west has kurgans, and the rest half that enters India does not?
    Prove, search biography of Alexander by Ptolemy and Arianos
    prove the later Zaratustran religion dead-places and the kallasha wich follow half Indian-Half European burial system
    If Kurgans was an IE custom, why they did not transmited it to India?.

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    Modern Ukrainians with wide jaws are probable to be more phenotypically alike the proto-IE peoples?

    I read it in a study that the proto-IE peoples we're wide jawed for some (unknown for me) reason.

    If you google ukrainian women you will see what I mean.. Wider cheekbones etc.

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