"Northern" elites in Greece and Rome.

It's not at all obvious that it should be so. Modern Greece has received many populations during the past 2000 years. What's more, different areas were under different occupations.

No one denies that the Greeks have absorbed other people who have settled in Greek populated lands during the last 2000 years. But based on historical, genetical and antrhopological data we can definately take the position of a considerable genetic continuty among the Greek peoples.

In short, Ancient Greeks are a mix of mostly pre-Greeks and IE Greeks. Modern Greeks are mostly pre-Greeks, IE Greeks and Hellenized people.
 
Last edited:
Let's not mix up everything. I wrote that I expected the original Romans to be light-skinned, and of a more northern (read Central-West European, as opposed to East Mediterranean).

As for the Greeks, I only said that the Mycenaeans (c. 1900-1100 BCE), especially in early centuries of their rule, were most probably a distinct ethnic group of (fair skinned/eyed) Indo-Europeans from the steppes (belonging to Y-haplogroup R1a and/or R1b). I specifically explained that the Greek classes almost certainly got mixed during the ensuing Dark Ages, so that Classical Greeks were already heavily hybridised, though with different admixtures depending on the regions. This hypothesis of regional genetic variations within ancient Greece is strongly supported by the present-day distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups (my example of Thessaly vs Crete).

So I didn't said that the aristocracy of Classical Greek (C. 510-323 BCE) was fair-skinned/eyed. They were probably as mixed as modern Greeks in this regard, though probably lighter in average because Classical Greek imported a lot of Egyptian slaves that only blended with the rest of population from the late Antiquity and Middle Ages.

Alexander the Great, who was blond with one blue eye (the other was brown), appears to have been an exception within Greek society in having a fair complexion. I merely hypothesised earlier in this thread that this could be because he had more Mycenaean (do Indo-European) blood in him, perhaps because Macedonian nobility didn't mix as much with the rest of the population during the Dark Ages.

The Romans started intermarrying with the (dark-skinned/haired/eyed) Etruscans from the 3rd century BCE, and increasingly over the next centuries. The Romans also mixed with the Greeks from southern Italy around that time. By the 1st century CE, many Romans had also become hybridised, resembling more the Greeks (slaves excluded) than they had ever before.

In the heydays of both Rome and Classical Greece, it appears to me that the elite of both countries were already considerably hybridised between Bronze Age Indo-Europeans and the earlier Neolithic population. Many great civilisations in history have actually arisen from an initial hybridisation between two populations. It was the case, for instance, of the Japanese (Yayoi + Jomon), the Persians (Indo-Europeans + Elamites), the Indians (Indo-Europeans + Dravidians), the Celts (Indo-Europeans + Megalithic people), the Greeks (Indo-Europeans + Neolithic population), the Romans (Indo-Europeans + Etruscans + Greeks), the British (ancient Britons + Anglo-Saxons + Normans), etc. In most of these cases, the arrival of new migrants/conquerors brought an unprecedented vitality and brought about the flourishing of a unique new culture (and often language too). Ethnic blending between very different peoples, perhaps because it enriches the local gene pool, is generally positive for the development of a population (at least for a few centuries, until the "boost" generated by the genetic mix settles down).



I wrote that I thought of ancient Romans (not Greeks though) as more Central European in looks. I do no think at all that they looked Scandinavian/Nordic, but neither do I think that they look "Mediterranean", for the simple reason that there isn't a "Mediterranean" look. Spaniards look completely different from Greeks who look completely different from Palestinians, who completely different from Sardinians, who look completely different from Moroccans. Even Italian look quite different depending on the region. Some types are found exclusively in Sicily, others in Sardinia, and others still in Northern Italy. You won't find anybody who looks like Al Pacino in Lombardy (I mean among "pure" Lombards, not Sicilians who moved to Lombardy). There may still be Italian people who look like the ancient Romans I mentioned, but they are more common in northern Italy, and even more common in some parts of France or southern Germany.




I never wrote anything about beards being related or unrelated to aristocracy. Why would you think that ? Many Roman emperors had beards, but many were clean-shaven too. It has more to do with fashion. Many medieval European kings had beards, but few of them did from the 17th century onwards.

What I did write is that ancient Etruscans and Greeks, as depicted in arts, were often bearded (including Greco-Roman gods). They also always had curly hair (while Roman aristocrats of the 1st century BCE and CE usually had slightly wavy hair).

I don't think haplogroups has anything to do with looks. And noble people intermarried with other noble people from neighboring countries to establish a stronger relationship.

And I think you're forgetting Alexander the greats mother was Epirotan. And some sources doubt that his father was Philip.

And If I remember right, some historians aruge that the ancient macedonians were Thracians/Illyrians but were eventually hellenized in culture.
 
Helots of Sparta. was a different case.Mostly were Messinians under Spartan rule who had to pay certain tax, and have a population control but could produce more agricultural goods for themselves.They were protected by the Spartan state.because they were considered state property.Even a Spartan citizen wasnt allowed to harm a Helot.(The CRYPTIA case is a different story)
I m new to the forum and i noticed a high intellectual level.Good job.
 
The ancient Roman Republican elite in Latium had a strong Adriatic or Dinaric phenotypical element judging by busts and coin portraits of the Late Republic and Early Empire.
 
I think overall, we agree that originally there was an Indo-European elite in both ancient Rome and Greece (and in many other places such as Persia and India), but over time due to admixture and socio-political changes it became less prominent. The Indo-European elite wasn't "Nordic" which is an 19th delusion, but they did have very light skin, eyes, and hair, compared to the native populations. I think this is confirmed by this one study (I can't remember where I found it) that measured skull width of Greeks, and they noticed that the lighter-haired ones usually had wider faces than the dark-haired ones. I think this supports the theory that Indo-Europeans had cold-adapted slightly "Mongoloid" traits.
 
I think overall, we agree that originally there was an Indo-European elite in both ancient Rome and Greece (and in many other places such as Persia and India), but over time due to admixture and socio-political changes it became less prominent. The Indo-European elite wasn't "Nordic" which is an 19th delusion, but they did have very light skin, eyes, and hair, compared to the native populations. I think this is confirmed by this one study (I can't remember where I found it) that measured skull width of Greeks, and they noticed that the lighter-haired ones usually had wider faces than the dark-haired ones. I think this supports the theory that Indo-Europeans had cold-adapted slightly "Mongoloid" traits.

first of all with IEans we mean what?
the baltics?
the blondes?
the steppe people?
the anatolians?
or the IE speakers?

2nd do you know certain where IE was protospoken?
steppe? baltic? midlle East, Zagros? Balkans(Varna)? outside India?Armenia?Georgia-Laz?

3 are you sure that alpine anthropometrical race is connected with IE?

4 have you ever thought that aryan nose or aquiline (eagle) nose might characteristic of IE?
how many 'wide face' 'kighter skin' have that nose?
how many wider face have wavy hair and not straw-straight?

5 searching summerian language we see except Nostradic another propability also the Ur-Urartian,
and the Akkadian vocabulary that exist in modern IE languages even in North IE or India,

6 have you ever thought Otzi could speak IE?

7 have you compare Varna-Balkanic culture with Kurgans, Egypt, Georgia, midlle East?

8 a good question is why Balkanic and Ucraine IE burry their dead, and Indo-Iranians didn't

9 with lighter skin you mean what? meditereneans are light or dark skin? where you put brown people?

10 Inuit and Mongols are wide face, are they lighter skin? Nordic are lighter skin, are they wide face?
I mean was the language of mongols or Inuit an IE language?

11 try to connect tocharians with Dionysos campaign as Ptolemy say, why from Tocharians and west we have tombs, and why from Tocharians and East or south we don't?
Tocharians were R1a, but they went to central Asia from minor Asia - middle East,
why half R1a from Tocharians to west has kurgans, and the rest half that enters India does not?
Prove, search biography of Alexander by Ptolemy and Arianos
prove the later Zaratustran religion dead-places and the kallasha wich follow half Indian-Half European burial system
If Kurgans was an IE custom, why they did not transmited it to India?.
 
Modern Ukrainians with wide jaws are probable to be more phenotypically alike the proto-IE peoples?

I read it in a study that the proto-IE peoples we're wide jawed for some (unknown for me) reason.

If you google ukrainian women you will see what I mean.. Wider cheekbones etc.
 

This thread has been viewed 62324 times.

Back
Top