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Having had a look over the Haplogroup maps I thought it was strange to note the 1-5% occurance of R1b-L21 in what appears to be Slovenia. Anyone know why this could be? Also, what about the reasonable occurance in Sicily?
http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...up-R1b-L21.gif
no clue about Sicily, but regarding Slovenia it could be about previous settlers being Celtic Taurisci...Originally Posted by Blau
The Taurisci were a federation of Celtic tribes who dwelt in today's northern Slovenia (Carniola) before the coming of theRomans (c. 200 BC)[1] According to Pliny the Elder, they are the same people known as the Norici.[2][3] The denotation probably stems from Celtictaur meaning "mountain", like in Tauern, and therefore may also refer to highlanders in general.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ok=7:chapter=5The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction. The city Segestica, belonging to the Pannonii, is situated at the confluence of several rivers, all of which are navigable. It is in a convenient situation for carrying on war against the Daci, for it lies at the foot of the Alps, which extend to the Iapodes,10 a mixed Keltic and Illyrian tribe. Thence also flow the rivers by which is conveyed to Segestica a great quantity of merchandise, and among the rest, commodities from Italy. The distance from Aquileia to Nauportus,11 a settlement of the Taurisci, across the mountain Ocra,12 is 350, or, according to some writers, 500 stadia. Merchandise is transported to Nauportus in waggons. The Ocra is the lowest part of the Alps, which extend from Rhætica to the Iapodes, where the mountains rise again, and are called Albii. From Tergeste,13 a village of the Carni,14 there is a pass across and through the Ocra to a marsh called Lugeum.15 A river, the Corcoras, flows near Nauportus, and conveys the merchandise from that place. It discharges itself into the Save, and this latter river into the Drave; the Drave again into the Noarus at Segestica. Here the Noarus, having received the Colapis16 as it descends in its full stream from the mountain Albius through the Iapodes, enters the Danube among the Scordisci. The navigation on the rivers is in general towards the north. The journey from Tergeste to the Danube is about 1200 stadia. Near Segestica is Siscia, a strong-hold, and Sirmium, both situated on the road to Italy. [3]
The Breuci, Andizetii, Ditiones, Peirustæ, Mazæi, Daisitiatæ, whose chief was Baton, and other small obscure communities, which extend to Dalmatia, and almost to the Ardiæi to the south, are Pannonians.
9 At the confluence of the Kalpa and the Save, afterwards Siscia, now Sizsek.
10 Occupied the coast of Morlacca from the Gulf of Quarnero to Zara.
11 According to Pliny, the name of this place is derived from the fable of the ship Argo, which was brought up the Danube and the Save, and thence carried on men's shoulders to the Adriatic. Now Porto Quieto.
12 To the north of Trieste.
13 Trieste.
14 Carniola.
15 The Czirknitz-See.
16 The Kuipa.
Nauportus, settlement of Taurisci, is on the road between Aquilea (area of Trieste) and Emona (modern Ljubljana)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauportus
these numbers could be all purely modern from the mussolini times, as he forced 225000 sicilians into the then italian area of slovenia and croatia, after WWII , these areas where given to yugoslavia and then in the 90s the "italian" populace preferred the more liberated slovenians than the croats ( as well as some returning to italy to migrate OS)
In regards to taurisci and carni, they are both gaulish tribes moving via switzerland through austria. If they are taurisci then there fellow tribal people in Piedmont ( Taurini) would have the same/similar Hg numbers
Father's Mtdna H95a1
Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
Mother's YDna R1a-Z282
i think that most people who have settled during ww2 were pushed out after liberation. In fact, also many people (Germans and Italians) who lived in areas before ww2 and were of German and italian origin and were collaborating with occupation troops. So I do not think this is imprint of ww2 settlers.
Taurini lived in north most Italy which is very close to L21 zone if not in it... note that Maciamo's map is approximation and not extremely precise and that Taurini were probably pushed to north and west in initial process of spreading Roman empire..also we do not know whether Taurini were of same genetic origin as Taurisci...they might have just belonged to the same culture.. not to mention that genetic structure of north italy was also heavily changed in times of fall of Roman empire when many germanic tribes pushed out many previous inhabitants and settled there
and if you look other branch of R1b that some people here also consider Celtic (S28) - it spans much much more south than any known position of Celtic people...it matches more with east Germanic settlements..
note that Boii didnot stay in Italy they moved out
so Celtic genetic in Italy can be expected only in north most area (if they didnot move more north and west as they probably did during initial expansion of Roman empire) which matches L21 spread... so L21 matches all last Celt settled area fairly well, while S-28 doesnot
as for north Sicily it could have been settled during Roman empire...Roman empire would typically have army that origin from one part of empire in far distant parts of it... in that way soldiers were not able to rebel locally based on nationality, and would also prevent that army has compassion for local rebels....... and since Sicily is relatively small area, this could have left imprint of around 5%...
or e.g. it could have been moved there to make Sicily stronger against invasions of Vandals and Alans from north Africa... or might (though that is much less likely) have come with Alans and Vandals... in fact pay attention to R-s28 in north Africa - R-S28 thast i propose to be east germanic and many here consider Celtic can in north Africa easily be imprint of east Germanic Vandals...although there is also a historical mention of Celts also in Africa in much earlier times...
Last edited by how yes no 3; 22-04-12 at 23:29.
It would be necessary to "import" very more Sicilians to bring so a % of R-L21 from Sicilia to N-E-Italy/SLovenia, would it not? and as answers How Yes No to Zanipolo, much of the people moved at the WW2 was sweaped away after
swept, sorry
forget gaulish tribes, ... L21 is celto-germanic, which means Tacitus germanic tribe, L21 in Slovenia is compatible with Pannonia settlement of the Lombards (526-568), in western Sicily it is Lombard/Norman
Y-DNA R1b L-21 is higher in eastern Sicily than in the western part according to Sarno et al.
In the study of Sarno et al. who studied well Sicily and mainland south Italy (excluding Campania) the R1b L21 was founded in these cities with these percentages:
Trapani 0%
Agrigento 1,22%
Enna 2,5%
Ragusa and Siracusa 2,22%
Catania 3,85%
Cosenza 0%
Matera 0%
Lecce 2,5%
Some historians have spoken of some english families who moved to south Italy during the norman period, also England was in this period ruled by normans, maybe R1b L-21 arrived in south Italy in that era.
R1b-L21 is common not only in Britain but also in northern France (Normandy, Brittany, etc), so many of the Normans themselves were R1b-L21. The English were (and still are, but at the time they were more) mostly R1b-U106 (Germanic/Anglo-Saxon) while R1b-L21 is most common in native Britons/Celts (such as the Welsh, Scots and Cornish).
Both the Vikings and Normans were in Sicily. Despite the fact that R1b-L21 is asscoiated with the Insular Celts, it was taken to Norway via migrations from Scotland and Ireland (mostly slaves). It was sometimes possible for a former slave to join Viking expeditions and Celtic DNA markers have been found in Viking graves. So its occurance in Sicily was probably due to Viking incursions.
L21 was also found at the Roman auxiliary border fort at Klosterneuburg, Austria (iirc dated ~100-400CE; along with U106 and DF19 in samples dated to a bit earlier).
The Roman army often employed Gauls or Germani. So that should explain its occurence in that particular location.
Yes, R1b-U106 does indeed represent the main AngloSaxon DNA marker, but the English people are a lot more diverse than being ' mostly R1b-U106'.
Exactly. The DF19 and U106 burials match up to the period where Batavi auxiliaries were known to be stationed there. The L21 (and a G2 burial) are dated as a bit younger and may be from when the Cohors [prima] Aelia Gaesatorum milliaria [peditata] sagittaria ("[1st infantry 1000 strong] archer Aelian cohort of Gaesati") was stationed there.
If the L21 is literally a Gaesati warrior descendant, and it's not just an old unit name:
I was going to post the wiki link for the above quote but I don't have enough posts to use links (stupid rule).The Gaesatae or Gaesati (Greek Γαισάται) were a group of Gallic mercenary warriors who lived in the Alps near the river Rhône and fought against the Roman Republic at the Battle of Telamon in 225 BC.[1][2][3]
According to some scholars, the Gaesatae may be identified with the Allobroges, who first appeared in the same region only a few years later in connection with Hannibal's crossing of the Alps in 218 BC.[4]
There is a single community of the Ladin (Rhaetian) people who are predominately L21. Gardena, I think it's called. There's another community of them that are predominately U152.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0081704
Most specific Ydna: R-Z44>CTS8949*
I would agree
L21 also stretched into the border area of austria and slovenia .........around the ancient Noric steel mines ...........they where mined by the japodes ( illyrians ) since 1900BC.
They traded these steel south and north through the Port of Vienna
The Port of Vienna has seen many historic eras. Archeologists have found evidence of human occupation at the site of today's Port of Vienna that dates back to the Old Stone Age. In ancient times, the Illyrians lived there. Today's Vienna was founded as a Celtic settlement called Vindobona in about 500 BC.
port of Vienna and Vienna have nothing in common on who founded them
Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155
"Fear profits man, nothing"
Also, some of the Celtic tribes who settled in the Po Valley were apparently from Northeastern Gaul, so a significant minority of L21 may have been brought over by them.
i only recall one tribe from there...the senones , who the romans wiped out in 100BC.....they arrived on the adriatic coast , south of rimini
the cenomani ( who where in verona area ) seemed to have survived into AD times
The Senoni seem having had there origin in North-Central Gaul, just a bit north the Loire river, not North-East.
The Cenomani seem the same thing as the Aulerci Cenomani, settled around Le Mans town, in Northeastern Maine Province, so, in a region where Y-R1b-L21 is still strong enough todate. I wondered for a time if they should have acquired this input from Britton legions of the 5th century (if I don't mistake, around 435/460, debated), when the Britto-Roman Ambrosius Aurelianus 'Riothamus' withdrawed in N-W Gaul after setbacks against Angles and Saxons in Brittain (famous "Brittons of the Liger", who occupied a large territory from the Channel to the Loire) but why not a more ancient condition among Northwestern Gauls?
I doubt the Senoni would be L21
Based on what? I have no opinion here. But we don't know today what was the genetic composition of every Gaulish tribe in those times.
Recent Genetic analysis of Gallic samples seem to suggest higher proportions of L21 and especially DF27 among Gauls than previously thought. Also maybe haplogroup G.
This recent thread on Anthrogenica was illuminating somewhat
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....vealed-through
This seems to suggest that R1b-U152 predominance is restricted mainly to Alpine and Belgic Celts. In the North, as one moves further West away from the Belgae, one could plausibly imagine an increased proportion of L21. Likewise towards the center and South, moving West further away from the Rhine and Alps, one could expect to find higher proportions of DF27 among the ancient Gauls.
Last edited by Robotnick; 10-05-23 at 00:27.
I see no very deep downstream subclades of Y-R1b-post L51 in ancient Gauls studied todate so we areobliged to do guesses.But it would be sensible that L21, oldest than DF27 and U152/L28, would have colonized West before the others. Even in Northern Iberia L21 is not so weak. But the nearest ancestors of L21 bearers, even if not already strictly L21, were surely come from eastern France. Now, Celtic tribes seem haveing travelled so easily and so far...
Concerning R1b-U152 I'm even wondering if it was so Celtic... It could have been the most frequent among Belgae and some of the Belgae seem having spoken a cousin dialect of Italo-Celtic origin, but closer to well formed Italic dialects than to Celtic ones. Belgae are supposed by some old scholars to be of E-Bavaria/Bohemia geographical origin. I don't know if this is very reliable but I have no recent clues? So more eastern La Tène descendants? Could it be possible that Celtic first arose rather among L21 bearers or L21 bearers ancestors? One of the languages identified (based on few and little it's true) in Rhaetia seems also of the same nature (Italo-Celtic towards Italic). I' don't speak of the Etruscanlike dialect here. A new thesis (not at hand, just other fora rumors)"says" Celtic was born in Central-Eastern France, not on the Atlantic shores, not in Southern Germany/Bohemia; La Tène archeological culture wouldn't be a critarium for language. According to it, Celtic dialects gained ground later eastwards and westards. Wait and see, so numerous new thesis arise these times.
Central- eastern france ...I presume you mean around Alsace .....................I have also heard and read this
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