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Thread: Austria's Y-haplo-groups.

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    surely there is no absolute proof that Celts are only Y-R1b dominant - nevertheless, we can see that everywhere were Celts are supposed to have lived or ruled a long time over other people, Y-R1b is overwhelmingly dominent (but perhaps a lot of this Y-R1b are from the ruled people) and what is more evident (for me) is that Y-R1a is almost absolutly absent in "old celtic lands" - when it is to be found, it is in regions that knew other peoples intrusions: Germanics in Eastern France and Central Southeastern France, Vikings in Brittain, Greeks in more southern regions, Slavs in central Europe etc... and I remind what said HUBERT (even if this man was not MOSES) that Hallstatt culture area was not a pure celtic area - that some scarce Y-R1a was among previous Celts is possible, but just a little taste of it - Sure, everyone can keep with his believings without more elements to judge...

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    read chapter 2 on the bronze age "austrian lands"

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...oricum&f=false
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    read chapter 2 on the bronze age "austrian lands" http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...oricum&f=false
    OK I red a part of this text - no surprise - what is your own conclusions ??? to go further on, I 'm reading "Les Indo-Europénes" by Bernard SERGENT - in this kind of compilation of other scholars he seams saying that against Henri HUBERT thoughts, all the Hallstatt Culture area would have been celtic culturally - posssible (it doesn 't focuse on the demic aspect) - apparently there should have been a true link between proto-Celts and proto-Italics - we know that Celts (coming from where previously? Eastern Europe?) re-expanded from Western-Central Europe (La Tène) to other lands: but are all the new celtic areas colonized by them very last entirely celtized from a demic aspect (genetical) aspect? in the same book he explains that the ancestors of Italic people and close people (apenniniques dont les Apuléans, kind of proto-itlaics) seam having had moved form East UNDER (southernly) the celtic area coming from Pannonia and surrounding regions, from an Eastern Europe origin too): these movements CAN (it 's not porved but...) have produced mixings and crossings with other populations of Neolithic stock (Danubian etc...) or North Balkan paleo-mesolithic stock: Austria is a crossroads - hard to prove more, easier to do bets (what I do as others here) - maybe Celts AND Italics, from a previous celtic-italic stock) could have beared a lot of Y-R1b-U152 in these regions, when other people send Y-J2, Y-E1b and diverse Y-I2a ...???

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    SERGENT say about 2000 BC concerning the Italic peoples in Italy,

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    OK I red a part of this text - no surprise - what is your own conclusions ??? to go further on, I 'm reading "Les Indo-Europénes" by Bernard SERGENT - in this kind of compilation of other scholars he seams saying that against Henri HUBERT thoughts, all the Hallstatt Culture area would have been celtic culturally - posssible (it doesn 't focuse on the demic aspect) - apparently there should have been a true link between proto-Celts and proto-Italics - we know that Celts (coming from where previously? Eastern Europe?) re-expanded from Western-Central Europe (La Tène) to other lands: but are all the new celtic areas colonized by them very last entirely celtized from a demic aspect (genetical) aspect? in the same book he explains that the ancestors of Italic people and close people (apenniniques dont les Apuléans, kind of proto-itlaics) seam having had moved form East UNDER (southernly) the celtic area coming from Pannonia and surrounding regions, from an Eastern Europe origin too): these movements CAN (it 's not porved but...) have produced mixings and crossings with other populations of Neolithic stock (Danubian etc...) or North Balkan paleo-mesolithic stock: Austria is a crossroads - hard to prove more, easier to do bets (what I do as others here) - maybe Celts AND Italics, from a previous celtic-italic stock) could have beared a lot of Y-R1b-U152 in these regions, when other people send Y-J2, Y-E1b and diverse Y-I2a ...???
    First of all , this is the 2007 studies which includes other illyrians
    http://www.anthroinsula.org/resource...xt version.pdf

    My conclusions are
    1- There where no germanic people in Noricum until 600AD ...the Bavarians
    2- The austrians first appeared in 998AD in noricum
    3 - The Venetic where in between the raeti and illyrians in present area of Innsbruck with archelogical "road signs" down to the danube, there is even the same naming of the River of Innsbruck...Sill River on this stones and in the Veneto plains through Treviso to the Venetian lagoon its called Sile , but SIL in venetian.
    4 - the majority of Noricum was infested with illyrians from 1000BC
    5 - As per the book I linked on the other post, it states the Celtic homeland was the modern border of france and germany "alsace and east of there"

    What we need to realise is that the Hallstatt culture came after into Noricum by the celts who where not germanic. With this I present a theory on U106.
    Why would't U106 be Illyrian from Noricum that once these men where incorporated into the Roman armies, where based ( as history knows) in the netherlands building barges and boats to transport these Roman troops to English soil.

    Then again- a mix of celtic and illyrian in Noricum could have "formed" U106 and also be sent to Netherlands

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    First of all , this is the 2007 studies which includes other illyrians
    http://www.anthroinsula.org/resource...xt version.pdf

    My conclusions are
    1- There where no germanic people in Noricum until 600AD ...the Bavarians
    2- The austrians first appeared in 998AD in noricum
    3 - The Venetic where in between the raeti and illyrians in present area of Innsbruck with archelogical "road signs" down to the danube, there is even the same naming of the River of Innsbruck...Sill River on this stones and in the Veneto plains through Treviso to the Venetian lagoon its called Sile , but SIL in venetian.
    4 - the majority of Noricum was infested with illyrians from 1000BC
    5 - As per the book I linked on the other post, it states the Celtic homeland was the modern border of france and germany "alsace and east of there"

    What we need to realise is that the Hallstatt culture came after into Noricum by the celts who where not germanic. With this I present a theory on U106.
    Why would't U106 be Illyrian from Noricum that once these men where incorporated into the Roman armies, where based ( as history knows) in the netherlands building barges and boats to transport these Roman troops to English soil.

    Then again- a mix of celtic and illyrian in Noricum could have "formed" U106 and also be sent to Netherlands
    - As said by others, the austrian sample is very small and I shouldn't be astonished if the internal distribution of Y-R1b was changed (its SNPs) -
    - History do'nt stop after Roman Empire so some Y-R1b-U106, perhaps the majority of it could have come or been reinforced by germanic invasions -
    - I don't think that occupation troops of an Empire could very often take the strong side over previous autochtonous populations -
    - Y-R1b U-106 (like Y-R1a) is very seldom in previous celtic countries where Germanics didn't poot their feet
    - so, presently, I think that not only Y-R1b was the dominent HG among Celts or EARLY celtized people, but even his specific U106 SNP was very rare (not so rare among Belgae, maybe)
    - the today austrian country is far being from celtic demic origin and it was the case yet at the time of the celtic eastwards expansion - and surely the different regions of Austria will show very different distributions of genes when more data will be gathered -
    - I confess i' haven't too well understood your concept of a celtic-illyrian amalgame forming a "U106" population: I would signifiy that the two different folks have this SNP in common???

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    - As said by others, the austrian sample is very small and I shouldn't be astonished if the internal distribution of Y-R1b was changed (its SNPs) -
    - History do'nt stop after Roman Empire so some Y-R1b-U106, perhaps the majority of it could have come or been reinforced by germanic invasions -
    - I don't think that occupation troops of an Empire could very often take the strong side over previous autochtonous populations -
    - Y-R1b U-106 (like Y-R1a) is very seldom in previous celtic countries where Germanics didn't poot their feet
    - so, presently, I think that not only Y-R1b was the dominent HG among Celts or EARLY celtized people, but even his specific U106 SNP was very rare (not so rare among Belgae, maybe)
    - the today austrian country is far being from celtic demic origin and it was the case yet at the time of the celtic eastwards expansion - and surely the different regions of Austria will show very different distributions of genes when more data will be gathered -
    - I confess i' haven't too well understood your concept of a celtic-illyrian amalgame forming a "U106" population: I would signifiy that the two different folks have this SNP in common???
    What I am leading to is that since the noricum area had illyrians from around 1000BC and the celtic Halstatt period began no earlier than 800BC
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture
    then it makes logical sense that the celtic merged with the illyrians in this noricum area and could have formed a new dna strain.

    So, since we know the celts where R1b where the Noricum illyrians also R1b or ???

    I do not think the celts wiped out completly all illyrians there because they where still noted in history by writers.

    The next issue is that the Gallic Taurisic tribe march into and settled in Noricum around 500BC , basically the Halstatt and east of there. So were they a third different R1b people or ??
    What happened to the celts ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Not the kilt, no. You're equating kilts with tartans, which, as Taranis has pointed out, aren't to be equated.
    I come lately on this problem of clothes and kilts
    for the modern kilt I don't know, but someones think that the 'bracae' and other breeches of the contiental Celts was a recent enough loan to Scythes (the larger ones was the ones of the Belgae) - the modern kilt is a 'relooked' form of a more ancient kind that was common to old scots and old irishmen
    I confess I'm not a specialist for clothes


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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    What I am leading to is that since the noricum area had illyrians from around 1000BC and the celtic Halstatt period began no earlier than 800BC
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture
    then it makes logical sense that the celtic merged with the illyrians in this noricum area and could have formed a new dna strain.

    So, since we know the celts where R1b where the Noricum illyrians also R1b or ???

    I do not think the celts wiped out completly all illyrians there because they where still noted in history by writers.

    The next issue is that the Gallic Taurisic tribe march into and settled in Noricum around 500BC , basically the Halstatt and east of there. So were they a third different R1b people or ??
    What happened to the celts ?
    I don't know what to add?
    I believed the first problem of this thread was the low % of R1b in Austria, a previous Hallstatt celtic region according to someones - the problem of the overwhelming dominance of U106 among R1b bearers is yet an other one- I tried to answer these questions - I would be glad having more austrian data... based on phenotypes (a partial approach) it seams that it would be some differences in distributions between Tyrol region (more neolithic and rhaetian) and by instance, the Salzburg region (more germanic: the ratio R1b-U106/-/I1 is not so different from the ratio among Flemings in whole Austria, for I know : I believe these HGs could be stronger in Salzburg region)- I don't see how the possible illyrian-celtic mixture can lighten the problem or only by saying that The weakened presence of Celts by other ethnies could explain the weak % of R1b ?...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I don't know what to add?
    I believed the first problem of this thread was the low % of R1b in Austria, a previous Hallstatt celtic region according to someones - the problem of the overwhelming dominance of U106 among R1b bearers is yet an other one- I tried to answer these questions - I would be glad having more austrian data... based on phenotypes (a partial approach) it seams that it would be some differences in distributions between Tyrol region (more neolithic and rhaetian) and by instance, the Salzburg region (more germanic: the ratio R1b-U106/-/I1 is not so different from the ratio among Flemings in whole Austria, for I know : I believe these HGs could be stronger in Salzburg region)- I don't see how the possible illyrian-celtic mixture can lighten the problem or only by saying that The weakened presence of Celts by other ethnies could explain the weak % of R1b ?...
    I add to myself:
    -I would very glad if the ethnic deep origin of the Austrians studied in these ridiculously small samples was told us (keep in mind thant between 20% and 30% of PRESENT DAY Austrian have SLAVIC (czech & yougoslav) AND HUNGARIAN FAMILY NAMES (males transmitted) -

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    i wrote this down a while ago from a tyrolese site. they in majority are G2a3b1a2 or was it Ray Banks G project ?
    G2a is important in Tyrol, but not dominant AFAIK

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Back on the topic of Austria, the pre-Roman inhabitants (the Celtic Norici) were absorbed into the Roman Empire by the late 1st century BC, and the population presumably was eventually latinized (like the Romansh in Switzerland).
    It's pretty clear that some major demographic shifts must have happened in Noricum during the wake of the Migration Period, otherwise the Austrians today would be speaking some form of Romance language, and not a Germanic one (again, compare with the situation in Switzerland).
    The Norici are a key to understand DNA development in Austria. It is not clear if they descended mainly from western Celts.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Lets take what we know of Austrian lands, - in the west Raeti , central and east was illyrian, venetic and gallic in the years of 600BC. what happened in around 550BC , the taurisci and the carni tribes ( gallic) invaded via switzerland , the taurisci settled in eastern austria ( noricum and where sometimes called Norici) and the carni went down the julian alps to split the venetic that where in italy and slovenia.
    The carni became the friuli of Italy today ( a high % of R1a) and the Slovenians of the carnithia provinces ( again R1a) .

    Who is to say that these Gallic Celtic tribes from Switzerland where not R1a. Who is not to say that the vindelici of southern germany where not R1a.

    Romansch is a language associated with the Raeti, Ladin and Friuli - Was this also a gallic linguistic group?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulan_language
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhaeto-Romance_languages
    It is not clear what kind of language Raeti (later romanized into Romansh, Ladin, Friuli) was. It had certainly (by writings) relations to the Etrusci. Taurisci and Carni maybe where only a warrior class and not the main genetic pool of later Raeti and/or Norici.

    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Please take into account the migration of serbs to Austria,which happened few hundreds of years ago (around the year 1700).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Serb_Migrations
    Think this influenced also the Y DNA from Austria.
    According to the Link the migrations went mainly to territories outside of german speaking areas (modern Austria). Mind that at the time the Habsburgian Austro-Hungarian Empire was much greater.

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    ... apparently there should have been a true link between proto-Celts and proto-Italics - we know that Celts (coming from where previously? Eastern Europe?) re-expanded from Western-Central Europe (La Tène) to other lands: but are all the new celtic areas colonized by them very last entirely celtized from a demic aspect (genetical) aspect? in the same book he explains that the ancestors of Italic people and close people (apenniniques dont les Apuléans, kind of proto-itlaics) seam having had moved form East UNDER (southernly) the celtic area coming from Pannonia and surrounding regions, from an Eastern Europe origin too): these movements CAN (it 's not porved but...) have produced mixings and crossings with other populations of Neolithic stock (Danubian etc...) or North Balkan paleo-mesolithic stock: Austria is a crossroads - hard to prove more, easier to do bets (what I do as others here) - maybe Celts AND Italics, from a previous celtic-italic stock) could have beared a lot of Y-R1b-U152 in these regions, when other people send Y-J2, Y-E1b and diverse Y-I2a ...???
    The old myths of Italics coming from east and moving along the southern Alps in to Italy is fascinating and maybe able to describe some of todays mixture in this area.

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I add to myself:
    -I would very glad if the ethnic deep origin of the Austrians studied in these ridiculously small samples was told us (keep in mind thant between 20% and 30% of PRESENT DAY Austrian have SLAVIC (czech & yougoslav) AND HUNGARIAN FAMILY NAMES (males transmitted) -
    Y-DNA exchange in the Habsburgian Empire (over 500 years) was certainly important and mixed mainly the lines in the main towns. Farmers and little villages should behave more stable.


    There is a new big Y-DNA study (over 3.000 samples) in Tyrol: gerichtsmedizin.at/tyrolean_alps.html (in german: tirol-studie.at). The sample collection is finished and the paper in elaboration.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarTyro View Post
    G2a is important in Tyrol, but not dominant AFAIK

    The Norici are a key to understand DNA development in Austria. It is not clear if they descended mainly from western Celts.


    It is not clear what kind of language Raeti (later romanized into Romansh, Ladin, Friuli) was. It had certainly (by writings) relations to the Etrusci. Taurisci and Carni maybe where only a warrior class and not the main genetic pool of later Raeti and/or Norici.


    According to the Link the migrations went mainly to territories outside of german speaking areas (modern Austria). Mind that at the time the Habsburgian Austro-Hungarian Empire was much greater.


    The old myths of Italics coming from east and moving along the southern Alps in to Italy is fascinating and maybe able to describe some of todays mixture in this area.

    Y-DNA exchange in the Habsburgian Empire (over 500 years) was certainly important and mixed mainly the lines in the main towns. Farmers and little villages should behave more stable.


    There is a new big Y-DNA study (over 3.000 samples) in Tyrol: gerichtsmedizin.at/tyrolean_alps.html (in german: tirol-studie.at). The sample collection is finished and the paper in elaboration.

    I agree with with your remarks as a whole
    I 'm longing about the results of this huge study that could change a bit our understanding about Austria History -for Rhaeti, I'm no longer sure that the present day population of there previous homeland is occupied yet by only an ethny - in Highlands it can occur some compartmentation of different little ethnies in different valleys at historical times without too soon mixture, being the result that today this mixture has had the time to take place - phonetically, I find the romance dialects of this zone are close enough to gall-italic dialects and so show some "celtic" or "liguric" links, far from what I believe was the etrusc influence on latinlanguages (hard stops, no lenition, something not to far from the germanic or hungarian phonetic evolution, seen from far, it's true - here I need a linguist advice ... the most of Y-G there could be from a human stock without any link to Neolithic agriculture (Alani: Sarmats with a North-Caucasus demic influence?) - wait and see
    thanks for your links

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I agree with with your remarks as a whole
    I 'm longing about the results of this huge study that could change a bit our understanding about Austria History -for Rhaeti, I'm no longer sure that the present day population of there previous homeland is occupied yet by only an ethny - in Highlands it can occur some compartmentation of different little ethnies in different valleys at historical times without too soon mixture, being the result that today this mixture has had the time to take place - phonetically, I find the romance dialects of this zone are close enough to gall-italic dialects and so show some "celtic" or "liguric" links, far from what I believe was the etrusc influence on latinlanguages (hard stops, no lenition, something not to far from the germanic or hungarian phonetic evolution, seen from far, it's true - here I need a linguist advice ... the most of Y-G there could be from a human stock without any link to Neolithic agriculture (Alani: Sarmats with a North-Caucasus demic influence?) - wait and see
    thanks for your links
    I am also interested , especially the 8 to 9 % of T ydna - in tyrol and ladin lands (not Latin)

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