Is there any difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from Albania?

Of course you was talking about Albania regarding religion. Are this your word:
?
For this reason i asked you:

Now, insist again. Can you elaborate this your theory about the problems between this many Albanians Orthodox of Greek rite and Muslim Albanians, using your words, about this disdain and hate?

BTW, the theory that the war in ex-Yugoslavia was a religious war, is part of serb propaganda. They want to justify their crimes playing the card of religion.


My profile clearly says the United States. Since you viewed my profile already, there was no reason to ask....

I failed to specify, however I was speaking of my encounter with Albanian Americans. Not Albanians in Albania proper.

I know plenty of stories of Albanians disowning their children for marrying albanians of other religions. I have had my own encounters where a girl I was dating could no longer see me because her father wouldnt accept me for being muslim.

Again as I said previously, there are all types of Albanians as there are other Balkan peoples. Stop making it seem otherwise.

Again, I have family who were there during the war. Your claims are irrelevant. Their words confirm the things they saw.

Playing a religion card doesn't justify any bloodshed. Only a fool would think so.
 
My profile clearly says the United States. Since you viewed my profile already, there was no reason to ask....

I failed to specify, however I was speaking of my encounter with Albanian Americans. Not Albanians in Albania proper.

I know plenty of stories of Albanians disowning their children for marrying albanians of other religions. I have had my own encounters where a girl I was dating could no longer see me because her father wouldnt accept me for being muslim.

Again as I said previously, there are all types of Albanians as there are other Balkan peoples. Stop making it seem otherwise.

Again, I have family who were there during the war. Your claims are irrelevant. Their words confirm the things they saw.

Playing a religion card doesn't justify any bloodshed. Only a fool would think so.

It's the first time for me that i heard something like this. I have never been in USA. But i have cousins there and they have never told me that you Albanians in USA have religious problems.
About the situation in Albania, i don't need to make things seem otherwise. I live here and we have not problems here.
About the war in Kosova, maybe you have cousins there, because you personally are from Albania, not Kosova.
 
In ancient times, the Balkans (in places like Greece, Albania, FYROM, Bulgaria) were populated by the same bulk of tribes which arrived there in pre-historical times. The Greek ethnogenesis was only formed much later, in the 2nd and 1st century BC, through invasions of indo-european tribes, myths and political events. What constituted a Greek or non-Greek was primarily based on culture, not race. It is very plausible that beyond the Greek world as we know it, the people were not very different from the Greeks genetically. Not to mention that around the 5th century AD there were many Greek colonies south of the Drin river. Judging by the fact that South Albanians are very close to Greeks genetically, this makes prefect sense. They are A) descendants of paleo-balkanic tribes like the Greeks and b) descendants of Greek colonisers.




Vlachs have been subjects to a horrific policy of assimilation by all the states which gained pieces of the territories inhabited by them. There could easily have been 20% of Vlachs in Albania considering there are still 200.000 Vlachs there today around the region of Vlora, Voskopoja, Moscopole. That's 7% of the total population of Albania today. I wouldn't be the least surprised if these Vlachs are genetically identical to south Albanians and Greeks. Some estimates of Bulgarians in Albania go up to 100.000. Likewise there are up to 30.000 Serbs in Albania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Albania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_in_Albania
http://imbeurope.org/embracepdf/profiles/vlachinalbania.pdf

So by today's accounts we can find a total of more than 500.000 Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians and Serbs in Albania. That's 18% of the total population. While according to the Albanologist that number was up to 40% procent a century ago. Definately not an impossibility considering Albania's history. That said, even if it as overstatement, it is a clear indication that Albania is not a homogenous country.
Yep. It looks like the majority of Albanian and mainland Greece people are paleo-Ballkanic. I think Hellens who imposed their language and culture to other people in the Ballkans should have been in proximity with Armenians since both languages are subsets of ones common language. Illyrians on the other side should have been in proximity with Germanics or Celst or Balto-Slavics for the same language reasons. Had Southern Albanians been Albanized Greek colonists as you are claiming, Albanian language should have had abstracts old Greek borrowings, instead Greek words Albanian language has, are objets like sickle, Bee, house, stone mill which came through culture exchange and trade. The small genetic distance Gegs have from Tosks is Slavic and Gothic invasions. Middle and North Albania do not have slavic Toponims. It appears that around 15% percent of Tosk population is either of Slavic or Gothic heritage. Greece on the other hand had the same invadors
 
It's the first time for me that i heard something like this. I have never been in USA. But i have cousins there and they have never told me that you Albanians in USA have religious problems.
About the situation in Albania, i don't need to make things seem otherwise. I live here and we have not problems here.
About the war in Kosova, maybe you have cousins there, because you personally are from Albania, not Kosova.

Albania definitely has problems. I would not call half the people being impoverished poor without jobs education or opportunities "not a problem". Even my brother in Law who is from Tepelena says as much. Its completely corrupt.

Maybe that is part of the reason Albania is still dragging behind(including the rest of the balkans). They see "no problem" with their state of affairs. I would say its a big problem when family you never met is calling asking you to send money back. This is practically the same for many Albanians I speak to as well.

Considering I actually have family in Kosova, and many from my moms side were killed, I would say I have a better understanding about it. At least in laymen terms. My moms family(though born muslim) dont even practice it. They loosely adhere to Kanun(of all things). So I see no reason they would lie about a religiously motivated Serb forces. I mean every dispute I have had with a Serb has had something to do with me being a Muslim Dog or something or other.

The only nice serbs I have met were American born. Which goes to show, hate is learned not inherent. The Balkans needs to wake up and join the rest of the world. Or get chewed up alive in the process. You cant stop the future. Go with it or perish.
 
Albania definitely has problems. I would not call half the people being impoverished poor without jobs education or opportunities "not a problem". Even my brother in Law who is from Tepelena says as much. Its completely corrupt.

Maybe that is part of the reason Albania is still dragging behind(including the rest of the balkans). They see "no problem" with their state of affairs. I would say its a big problem when family you never met is calling asking you to send money back. This is practically the same for many Albanians I speak to as well.

Considering I actually have family in Kosova, and many from my moms side were killed, I would say I have a better understanding about it. At least in laymen terms. My moms family(though born muslim) dont even practice it. They loosely adhere to Kanun(of all things). So I see no reason they would lie about a religiously motivated Serb forces. I mean every dispute I have had with a Serb has had something to do with me being a Muslim Dog or something or other.

The only nice serbs I have met were American born. Which goes to show, hate is learned not inherent. The Balkans needs to wake up and join the rest of the world. Or get chewed up alive in the process. You cant stop the future. Go with it or perish.

Absolutely we have our problems and we don't ignore (the existence of corruption etc, so again you are not correct), but not this kind of problem, the religious conflict as you described it, this no. And our discussion was about this hypothetical religious conflict between Albanians, not about the poverty or the corruption in Albania. So, your post was incorrect.
 
The only thing keeping Americans civilized is the dollar. If that collapses there would be a bloodbath here unprecedented in human history. The most guns per capita in the world, no one comes close. Serbia is a distant 2nd.
 
Ali pasha-s center was Ioannina which is deep into greece and kind of far from the present day albanian border, so that puts in question as to who was in greece during the 1800-s.
Geography is not everyone's forte, but Ioannina is only 69.1 km from the Albanian border (~11€ fuel cost.) Errors such as this raises questions as to your intent, seriousness, and integrity. :annoyed:

https://www.rome2rio.com/s/Ioannina/Kakavia-border-crossing
 
Albania definitely has problems. I would not call half the people being impoverished poor without jobs education or opportunities "not a problem". Even my brother in Law who is from Tepelena says as much. Its completely corrupt.

Maybe that is part of the reason Albania is still dragging behind(including the rest of the balkans). They see "no problem" with their state of affairs. I would say its a big problem when family you never met is calling asking you to send money back. This is practically the same for many Albanians I speak to as well.

Considering I actually have family in Kosova, and many from my moms side were killed, I would say I have a better understanding about it. At least in laymen terms. My moms family(though born muslim) dont even practice it. They loosely adhere to Kanun(of all things). So I see no reason they would lie about a religiously motivated Serb forces. I mean every dispute I have had with a Serb has had something to do with me being a Muslim Dog or something or other.

The only nice serbs I have met were American born. Which goes to show, hate is learned not inherent. The Balkans needs to wake up and join the rest of the world. Or get chewed up alive in the process. You cant stop the future. Go with it or perish.
Did you take out the garbage? Its garbage day today! Or you have gotten promotion as doorman?
 
Did you take out the garbage? Its garbage day today! Or you have gotten promotion as doorman?


This is exactly what I mean. Denial. And childish responses.
 
Absolutely we have our problems and we don't ignore (the existence of corruption etc, so again you are not correct), but not this kind of problem, the religious conflict as you described it, this no. And our discussion was about this hypothetical religious conflict between Albanians, not about the poverty or the corruption in Albania. So, your post was incorrect.

My post was not incorrect. I mentioned corruption as a whole. And religion as a motivating factor for Greeks and south Slavs(with exception of Bosnians).

You keep jumping back to religion. I understand English may not be your first language. Perhaps it's just misunderstanding on both our parts. However, I was speaking of orthodox Greeks and south Slavs being religiously motivated for half they do. You can't deny most of their identity relies heavily on their orthodox history.

My comments were experiences with Albanians in AMERICA. IF I have to type that again then I'm clearly wasting my time.

Religious problems(at least those of a marital nature) do exist in the United States. Half the Albanian girls I dated weren't even Muslim.

When my cousin got married(her husband is Albanian catholic from Malesi), his family disowned him. Similar case in the reverse for my friend. He was catholic. Girl was Muslim. Her father disapproved.


You may not have these problems since you all fell out of Communism with the likes of that tyrant Hoxha. However those who left before the borders closed do in fact carry some religious disputes with them.
 
This is what wikipedia says about the plague, it does not seem to have much to do with battlefields:
"The Black Death is thought to have started in China or central Asia, before spreading west. The plague then travelled along the Silk Road and reached the Crimea by 1346. ....."

and in 1346 the slavs were already in the balkans.
But there were earlier European plagues than the 14th century one. There was the 'Justinian plague' that Tom Holland (in his book, In the Shadow of the Sword) attributes as weakening the Roman East and Persia enough that the Arabs, and Islam, had a far easier time in their rise than would have been the case a few hundred years either way. The Celts were in Greece in the 6th century BCE, I believe, but the 6th century CE period dovetails with +oriental's thesis at #88. I'm not saying that I agree with all +oriental said in #88. Just sayin' that you are mistaken again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Shadow_of_the_Sword_(book)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam:_The_Untold_Story
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Eastern_Europe
 
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Absolutely we have our problems and we don't ignore (the existence of corruption etc, so again you are not correct), but not this kind of problem, the religious conflict as you described it, this no. And our discussion was about this hypothetical religious conflict between Albanians, not about the poverty or the corruption in Albania. So, your post was incorrect.
There are more conflicts in poverty. When people don't have money for basic life or food, they blame everybody for their misery, usually people of different religion, and they are more tempted to corruption or other crimes.
 
As Bulgarian-Macedonian, Serb-Montenegrian

Is there any chance of division between Albanian and Albanian in Kosovo (Kosovian?) ?
 
There are more conflicts in poverty. When people don't have money for basic life or food, they blame everybody for their misery, usually people of different religion, and they are more tempted to corruption or other crimes.

Le Brok, we have so many problems here in Albania. The fact that from the ex-communist countries, only few of them in Balkan region are not part of EU, explain many things. But the religion, has never been a problem between Albanians. Some people have a distorted view of reality. I want to add also that if we have this excellent coexistence between different religions here in Albania, this is not thanks to the imposed atheism of communism. This is an old tradition in Albania. In one thousand years of existence of more than two religions between Albanians, there were problems? Of course yes, one thousand years is a long period, the invaders used this existence of more than two religions between Albanians in order to divide us. But the very fact that we are today a nation with different religions, is the prove that our ethnic identity always prevail over religions or other divisions among us.
 
As Bulgarian-Macedonian, Serb-Montenegrian

Is there any chance of division between Albanian and Albanian in Kosovo (Kosovian?) ?

The creation of a single state for all Albanians is not allowed from Great Powers. So, we will continue to live in different states, but always we will continue to be one nation.
 
As Bulgarian-Macedonian, Serb-Montenegrian

Is there any chance of division between Albanian and Albanian in Kosovo (Kosovian?) ?


I guess it all depends on who you speak to? and your encounters in general. Personally(most of my Albanian friends are from Kosova) and they have been the LEAST bigoted(to my personal experience). Yet when I ask my cousin, based on his encounter, he seems to think Kosovar Albanians are delusional. Because most he has met claim they are Kosovan not Albanian. Keeping them separately has caused some divergent aspects of culture and association I am sure. Though this seems to be the case for some there, as opposed to those born here.
 
Le Brok, we have so many problems here in Albania. The fact that from the ex-communist countries, only few of them in Balkan region are not part of EU, explain many things. But the religion, has never been a problem between Albanians. Some people have a distorted view of reality. I want to add also that if we have this excellent coexistence between different religions here in Albania, this is not thanks to the imposed atheism of communism. This is an old tradition in Albania. In one thousand years of existence of more than two religions between Albanians, there were problems? Of course yes, one thousand years is a long period, the invaders used this existence of more than two religions between Albanians in order to divide us. But the very fact that we are today a nation with different religions, is the prove that our ethnic identity always prevail over religions or other divisions among us.

Well that is why you have a one sided view of things. Speak to Albanians that left before the border closed, and most(not all)care more about religious associations than they do "Albanianism". The Communist regime of Enver Hoxha oppressed many peoples in Albania. Forced names, no religious institutions or places of worship. Its the whole reason my family came to the United States in the first place. My grandfather helped Albanians of all faiths escape into Macedonia, and was pursued by Hoxhas forces for it, so they fled to Macedonia, then to Italy, then to the United States.

All you need to do is look at most of Albanias history before communism. There was in fact religious disputes. Especially between Albanians. You can even look to Edith Durhams book where she mentions some muslim and catholic Albanian tribes attacking each other over religious disputes. It is due to communism that Albanians adopted a sort of ethno-religious consciousness as opposed to actual religious consciousness. I mean when you have Albanians saying "my religion is Albanianism", than it is quite clear. This correlated to the result of the communist regime.

This is evident in the fact that some Albanians I meet from Albania proper are in fact either still fans of Hoxha, or still cling to aspects of the propaganda he enforced. Whereas in Kosova, its obvious religion still holds sway. Though not enough to cause division. Look to Albanians in Greece. Specifically Orthodox Arvanites. They call Albanian Muslims Turks. This is a result of their upbringing, and the fact they belong to a Greek speaking orthodox church. Religion is definitely more problematic with our neighbors. What plagues Albania the most is the corruption at state and government levels. No jobs, relatively little education(aside from Tirana). Those who did get an education actually left. When you have to conserve electricity and turn it off in some parts of the country throughout the day, you have nothing but problem. Why is this something only Albanians who emigrated from Albania seem to recognize?

There is no reason we cant move forward as a people and nation. its a beautiful country, with beautiful history. The ignorance our people take pride in is a detriment to our advancement, not an aid.
 
But the very fact that we are today a nation with different religions, is the prove that our ethnic identity always prevail over religions or other divisions among us.
That's a good sign.
 
Well that is why you have a one sided view of things.
It's not one side view. It's the story of the last millenia, from the division of the church. And the line that divide the two churches also divide Albania in two parts. Later arrived Islam. If religion was important for the Albanians, hard to find any Albanian today.

Speak to Albanians that left before the border closed, and most(not all)care more about religious associations than they do "Albanianism".
I told you that i have cousins in USA. Their parents left Albania in November 1944 because they were nationalists, supporters of King Zog. But i had the possibility to ask my grandfathers and grandmothers, it's the same. From what they told me, there were no religious problems.
The Communist regime of Enver Hoxha oppressed many peoples in Albania. Forced names, no religious institutions or places of worship.
Well, it was a dictatorial system. What have to do with our discussion.

Its the whole reason my family came to the United States in the first place. My grandfather helped Albanians of all faiths escape into Macedonia, and was pursued by Hoxhas forces for it, so they fled to Macedonia, then to Italy, then to the United States. [
Again, what have to do all this with our discussion. The only interesting thing is that your grandfather had no problems with the religions.
All you need to do is look at most of Albanias history before communism. There was in fact religious disputes. Especially between Albanians. You can even look to Edith Durhams book where she mentions some muslim and catholic Albanian tribes attacking each other over religious disputes.
Disputes among Albanians has always been something very common. For example, two regions who were bastions of Scanderbeg, Mati and Dibra, both mostly converted in Islam, had a bloodfeud for centuries. This blood feud ended few years after that Albania was liberated from Ottomans. Nothing to do with religions. But with all the respect, because my grandfather from mother side was from your region, Dibra e vogël, what i have to see are not some quarrels between some villagers. What you have to see is the fact that Albanians of all religions partecipated in the National Renaissance, in the Independence of Albania. The first real Albanian state was created in the Kongres of Lushnje, where was created the High Council, composed from four members of different religions. What i have to see is the coexistence of the religions during the Kingdom of Albania, under the King Zog.
It is due to communism that Albanians adopted a sort of ethno-religious consciousness as opposed to actual religious consciousness. I mean when you have Albanians saying "my religion is Albanianism", than it is quite clear. This correlated to the result of the communist regime.
No, you are totally wrong. Were the forefathers of Albania who decided for Albanianism. And this mean that everyone is free to follow his religion, but above all is Albania. Meanwhile during the communism above all was the Party. Communism, intentionally misused Albanianism.
This is evident in the fact that some Albanians I meet from Albania proper are in fact either still fans of Hoxha, or still cling to aspects of the propaganda he enforced.
Whereas in Kosova, its obvious religion still holds sway.
This people are called nostalgics, nothing to do with religion but with their sympathy for communism as a system.
With the Albanians outside our borders, the story is different. The religion was used by the invaders, the serbs, as a tool for the elimination of the Albanians. Their plan was the islamisation of the Albanians and later their conversion in Bosniaks. The perfect example Novi Pasar. There are no more Albanians in Novi Pasar or Sandjak.

Though not enough to cause division. Look to Albanians in Greece. Specifically Orthodox Arvanites. They call Albanian Muslims Turks. This is a result of their upbringing, and the fact they belong to a Greek speaking orthodox church.
Yes, but the same can not be said for the Arbëreshë in Italy. Why?
 

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