Is there any difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from Albania?

[kamani]

No,

most sources agree that came maritime,
archaiological evidences place it around 2000 Bc Konya minor Asia,

it has almost zero variances means that is new,
if was >8000 old how many diversities could give?

to understand E-V13 in Balkans,
1) no archaiological found before +- 2000 BC
2) almost Zero diversities in high peaks,
3) most variances are in south Greece, except one that is Bosna, while Albania and Kossovo show no diversity,

well.. no, it's older than 2000 bc,
however this has been discussed extensively in this and other threads, if you want to be convinced.

[Dianatomia]

dienekes is a personal blog operated by a greek guy, so it might be just a little bias when it comes to talking about greece. Most sources agree that E - v13 has been in the balkans since the neolithic, but nobody is sure where it came from and where was the higher density. Current diversity is also disputable where is the highest, some sources say it is bosnia-montenegro area (read above in this thread). Needless to say both Illyrians and Mychaneans/Dorians found it there when they came, so it is neither albanian nor greek but ancestral to both.

When I claim that there is more variety of E-V13 in Greece, it is because the 'sources' Dienekes publishes (and which are credible) point out to that. Not because Dienekes says so. Now, Dienekes can draw conclusions from that, but it is not his conclusions I am referring to.

I never said that E-V13 is Greek. It is neither Greek nor Illyrian, but it was there for a long time and the Ancient Greeks had it.

[albanopolis]

I believe this has been mentioned before, but more variety of haplogroup E-V13 is Greece than in Albania, which means that E-V13 could not have come from Albanians to Greece, but the way around. Second, some regions in Greece, like Thessaly, have higher amounts of haplogroup E-V13 than is found among Albanians. Also, E-V13 seems to be much older in Greece than in other parts of the Balkans.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/07/...explained.html

Lastly, just recently a burial of Ancient Athens was discovered and many ancient Greek remains have been excavated. It turns out that the variety of cranial morphology of the types in Ancient Athens is very similar to the current inhabitants of Greece. The same research also found that many Ancient Athenians died of typhoid fever. The face of a twelve year old girl called Myrtis has been reconstructed.

This is for Greek speakers only.


Now, to what extent the Albanians got the J2a from the Greeks, I can not tell. Neither can I confirm weather J2 people are more artistic than E-V13 people. But E-V13 was most certainly present in ancient Greece.

Of course E-v13 has been present always in Greece all the times. They were a componenet of the Pellasgians who inhabited the region at the earliest times. So the earliest inhabitants of Greece,Albania,Turkey were the same, But taking into account the high development of Greece at antique times, its reasonable to think that these people were not E-v13. Had they been E-v13 then the Illyrians would have been at least equally developed. What seperates today's Albanians from Greeks is J2a of Greeeks from J2b of Albanians. So reasonably enough J2a were the advanced people of antiquity that are responsable for present day greek language and culture,

[Malsori]

Of course E-v13 has been present always in Greece all the times. They were a componenet of the Pellasgians who inhabited the region at the earliest times. So the earliest inhabitants of Greece,Albania,Turkey were the same, But taking into account the high development of Greece at antique times, its reasonable to think that these people were not E-v13. Had they been E-v13 then the Illyrians would have been at least equally developed. What seperates today's Albanians from Greeks is J2a of Greeeks from J2b of Albanians. So reasonably enough J2a were the advanced people of antiquity that are responsable for present day greek language and culture,

I think your logic is flawed. What about the J2a peak among Chechens and other Kavkaz nations? Why they were/are not advanced?

Y-DNA doesn't play any role when success or failure on culture/economy comes in hand.

[albanopolis]

Its not one size fits all Malsori!!! Being J2a means that there are numerous subclades. Obviously subclade of greeks and Kavkaz is not the same. Albanians and Berbers are the same haplogroup but different subclades. And you must know the difference. Same stand for Greeks. Developed Greeks of antiquity were somewhere in Anatolia until they populated Egean Islands. So I am thoroughly convinced that J2a in Ballkans and mediterranian is from advanced Greeks. If you see there is not much difference in haplogroup terms amang Albanians and Greeks with the exception of J2a, AND THIS j2a makes us two seperate nations with two seperate languages, with some common words as heretage of our common Pellasg ancestry,

[albanopolis]

Good news. Kosovo opened the first forensic laboratory in the Albanian territories. It was a donation of the American government. The staff was trained by american specialists. The primary purpose of the laboratory was identification of war victims. A consequence of this laboratory will be a trusted source of the DNA of Albanians. It will take a little time though until we have the first publications.

[adamo]

Is there a difference between Albanians and Kosovo Albanians? Well, yes. Kosovo Albanians have an additional 30% E3b, putting their total to about 50% E3b. Patrilineally, they are a gold mine of E-V13 and other forms of north-African blood, whereas the "standard" Albanians genetic "pie" is more split up between different elements distributed more equally: 15-20% R1b, 10-15% R1a, 10-20% of different I subclades on a national level, 20-30% E3b ( with Macedonian Albanians being closer to 40%, Kosovo Albanians 50%), 20-25% J , etc.

[Yaan]

Is there a difference between Albanians and Kosovo Albanians? Well, yes. Kosovo Albanians have an additional 30% E3b, putting their total to about 50% E3b. Patrilineally, they are a gold mine of E-V13 and other forms of north-African blood, whereas the "standard" Albanians genetic "pie" is more split up between different elements distributed more equally: 15-20% R1b, 10-15% R1a, 10-20% of different I subclades on a national level, 20-30% E3b ( with Macedonian Albanians being closer to 40%, Kosovo Albanians 50%), 20-25% J , etc.

E-V13 is a hard core European group,that is not North African, I do not know why ur approach is so strange. If E-V13 people are North African, then R1a people are Central Asian and R1b are Anadolian. E-V13 in the Balkan is there before R1b and R1a so it is local. E-V13 is Balkan, with parent somewhere in Anadolia or just Balkan!

[adamo]

Yeah i know ll, but it originated the Macro-haplogroup E, in continental Africa and within E, E-V13 is derived from the egyptoid-Libyan E-M78 parent Clade...that's all I'm trying to say, E-V13 may be linked to the Balkans which it is, but its parent Clade is linked to north-Africa and continental Africa even earlier, during the early stages of E. and saying that R1, wether R1a or R1b is linked to Anatolia is just ludicrous nonsense.....neither of these two branches of R1 ever arrived in Anatolia, unless MUCH later, for example Galatians that brought some R1b to Anatolia in more recent times. R1a/R1b people are not central Asian, but their R1 father was...that's kind of the point of what I'm saying about E being African....it originated there, as R1a and R1b originated in the central Asian Russian steppes but then moved into Europe. E is linked to continental Africa, but the father of E-V13 ( E-M78 ) is linked more recently to the Egypt/Libya region of Africa in particular. This is from where these men launched to the levant and then arrived in the Balkans.

[Yaan]

Yeah i know ll, but it originated the Macro-haplogroup E, in continental Africa and within E, E-V13 is derived from the egyptoid-Libyan E-M78 parent Clade...that's all I'm trying to say, E-V13 may be linked to the Balkans which it is, but its parent Clade is linked to north-Africa and continental Africa even earlier, during the early stages of E. and saying that R1, wether R1a or R1b is linked to Anatolia is just ludicrous nonsense.....neither of these two branches of R1 ever arrived in Anatolia, unless MUCH later, for example Galatians that brought some R1b to Anatolia in more recent times. R1a/R1b people are not central Asian, but their R1 father was...that's kind of the point of what I'm saying about E being African....it originated there, as R1a and R1b originated in the central Asian Russian steppes but then moved into Europe. E is linked to continental Africa, but the father of E-V13 ( E-M78 ) is linked more recently to the Egypt/Libya region of Africa in particular. This is from where these men launched to the levant and then arrived in the Balkans.

R1a in Europe is European, but the father is from Central Asia
R1b in Europe is European but the father is from Anadolia
E-V13 is European, but the father is from Levant/Egypt
so E-V13 is as North African as R1a Central Asian
All people originate in African, but if we need to chose who is more old in Europe E-V13 or R1b, it is off course E-V13. But the whole thing is wrong, but always when somebody calls European genes as E-V13,J2b2 or G2a non European I would be here to set him straight and call R1b Anadolian

[adamo]

The father of R1b is in Central Asia.......with R1a, that's where father R1 originated. G2a or P15 movement came from the Caucasus into turkey through Greece, across to south Italy and then to Sardinia after that, it's the European branch of hg G, yes. J2b is Greco-Albanian, distributed in the Balkans similarly to the earlier E-V13. R1b is Western European and R1a Eastern European, they are both linked to Central Asia by R1.

[Yaan]

So if E-V13 is North African, R1a is Central Asian and R1b is Anadolian. R1 is Central Asia, but R1b people come to Europe from Anadolia. But some people with no knowladge thing that E-V13 come from Middle East but R1b come from heaven, which is not the truth. G2a and E-V13 and J2b2 is in Europe before R1b and R1a, E-V13 and J2b2 are born in Europe, I do not argue that the fathers come from Levant and Mesopotamia, but if u r going to insult E-V13 and J2b2 as being non European, say the same for R1b and R1a or say nothing.
I1,I2a and I2b are European
N1c,E-V13,G2a and J2b2 have root elsewhere but are born here
and that brings us to the newest Europeans R1a and R1b
But of course all of the above are hard core European. Just in the North there was no people or really few people so the new groups are dominant there, while in the Balkan and Italy and Central Europe and Anadolia and Scandinavia(different case there, but still I1 and N1c are older than R1a and R1b) there is civilizations so the old groups also stayed.

[adamo]

No...r1b did not come from Anatolia to Europe, haplogroup I did. R1b came from Central Asia to Eastern Europe finally arriving later in Western Europe. And what's "insulting" about having a haplogroup that dominates middle eastern or North African people's? Your a rarity in Europe you should consider it an honour.

[Yaan]

No...r1b did not come from Anatolia to Europe, haplogroup I did. R1b came from Central Asia to Eastern Europe finally arriving later in Western Europe. And what's "insulting" about having a haplogroup that dominates middle eastern or North African people's? Your a rarity in Europe you should consider it an honour.

1. I is European!
2. R1b come from Anadolia
3. I am not speaking about my haplogorup and I do consider it an honor
4. E-V13 is not African, it is seen only in Europe, outside Europe only in Turks(but it comes from Albanians,Bulgarians and Serbs), Jews but really low and Druze, not observed in North Africa
5. It is insulting coz this forum is full with people with no knowalde that say that if u r not R1b u have high chance of beeing gay, u r not a real man.Hmmm I wish this guys come to fight with Bulgarians,Serbs and Albos then we see who the man.
6. For the last time E-V13 does not dominate anywhere but in part of South East ,South and Central Europe. E-78 I am not speaking, I care only about E-V13

[Yetos]

1. I is European!
2. R1b come from Anadolia
3. I am not speaking about my haplogorup and I do consider it an honor
4. E-V13 is not African, it is seen only in Europe, outside Europe only in Turks(but it comes from Albanians,Bulgarians and Serbs), Jews but really low and Druze, not observed in North Africa
5. It is insulting coz this forum is full with people with no knowalde that say that if u r not R1b u have high chance of beeing gay, u r not a real man.Hmmm I wish this guys come to fight with Bulgarians,Serbs and Albos then we see who the man.
6. For the last time E-V13 does not dominate anywhere but in part of South East ,South and Central Europe. E-78 I am not speaking, I care only about E-V13

so do we have PARTHENOGENESIS OF E-V13 in Balkans?

[adamo]

I know I is European but it arrived to Europe via Anatolia to the southern Balkans Bosnian refuge. E-V13 is not African but its the son of north-east African E-M78. R1b did not come from "Anadolia" E-V13 does not dominate in parts of Central Europe, only in the southern Balkans.

[Yaan]

I did not come from Anadolia, his father IJ which is totally different was from Mesopotamia
E-V13 is European, nobody here is talking about E-M78, we discuss about E-V13
South Balkans is Greece, E-V13 is big in West and East Balkans, in South somewhere
Most Central European countries have 10% which is huge, do not make mistake that West Europe have 60-70% of R1b they have 20-30 of one kind of R1b and then of another, so each nation is like 3-4 dominating things, but in the case of West Europe it is different kinds of R1b

[adamo]

I migrated to the southern Balkans via Anatolia.

[Yaan]

I migrated to the southern Balkans via Anatolia.

South Balkans is Greece the south and I is really small there it is 20-25% in Eastern Balkans and 35-40% in Western Balkans, and I is not from Anatolia. From Anatolia is R1b

[adamo]

I came to the Bosnia/Herzegovina region of the Balkans via Anatolia.

[Yaan]

I came to the Bosnia/Herzegovina region of the Balkans via Anatolia.

I disagree strongly :)
I is from the Balkan(later I1 Scandinavia, I2a1 Sardinia, I2a2 Balkan(but maybe Central Europe)
J1 - Kavkaz
J2- Mesopotamia (J2b2 Balkan,J2a4b Kavkaz,J2a4h Iran)
E1b1b- Levant(E-V13 Balkan)
R1a- Central Asia(sublades later originate in Poland,Ukraine, Scandinavia)
N- East Asia- N1c( Baltic region)
R1b - Anatolia(sublades later originate in North West Europe, Iberia etc)

[adamo]

The bulk of R1b ( M343 ) can be seen on any map moving from Central Asia towards Western Europe. It borough with it to Western Europe u152, l21, s21, ( s21 and the sons of s116) etc. L23 separated from the bulk of m343 near the Pontic steppe and ended up in the Middle East and certain portions of Russia/Ukraine and some of it got from Middle East to Balkans Europe ( Bulgaria etc). L11, m412, m529 virtually every other r1b sub group of father M343 ended up in Europe or Western Europe via Central Asia. Other than m73 or l23, r1b did not enter Europe via Anatolia but by the central Asian grasslands highway with the m343. I is from Balkans, yes. It then migrated north to Scandinavia, we know. But it came to Balkans, at first, via Anatolia. I am not saying I is Anatolian, actually it sure is NOT. It is European, but it reached the Balkans ( from where it would spread in continental Europe causing gravettian culture) from Anatolia. I agree with all you say on I, it comes from Balkans, but arrived in Europe, from Anatolia. It is characteristically Balkan though, I2a in particular and I1a is Scandinavian, I get this, we both do.

[albanopolis]

What's the big deal if E-v13 is North African. It makes the carriers of E-V13 participants in every developed civilization. But the evidence is that the marker e-v13 originated in the Balkans, and as such it makes it European marker.

[adamo]

It is European for gods sake. It just arrived to Europe from north-east African migration to levant and then the Balkans. That's what E-M78 did. Some time after reaching the Balkans the E-V13 mutation took place.

[Beast]

some of your thoughts and number areincorrect,

for example R1b could be risen at roman empire from roman legions or roman colonists,
R1a is still strange for me, I don't believe that entered at Slavic migration cause that means that R1a slavicise all balkans so to become Greek? !!!!
Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b
so it is the more details like DYS etc which can help realize.

the E hg is strange case since is connecting with Cyprus and Phoenicians and Kadmeians it seems that was a population entered at balkans from Greece but at archaic times another wave went to Albania which took mountains at Illyrian wars with rome,

the population you mention as 50% of Greece at 1820 is tottaly wrong,
Albanian population was limited where Latin rulers allow it around Athens Theba and some areas in Morea estimated about 150 000 at 1991 from which about 1/3 are Aromani from Albania (Latin speakers-Vlachs) (every ten years population statistics),
especially Northen Greece was not speaking Albanian but Slavomakedonian as third language after Greek and Turkish, Albanians in North Greece lived in the same villages with Turks almost sharing same temples and serve as soldiers of Ottomans. the fights among Greeks and Albanians in North Greece are mention even today, especially in the mountains.
Greek colonisation in Albania is ancient and from history we learn that unite with Illyrians to the mountains so it is difficult to distinguish which is who since same population that colonise until Durress and Lissos. almost the same population return after the liberty of Greece from Ottomans.

a good example to understand 1821 is to find the story of 2 man, Ανδρουτσος and Διακος, Andruzzo (Italian name) Diakos, who grow them up, who was their stepfather and who learn them to fight.

I have to disagree.

Albanians did not cooperate with Ottomans. Many of them were converted but some of the greatest Albanian warriors who were muslims were AGAINST ottomans. for example Azem Galica. The Serbs and Greeks were on the same team as Ottomans. they even killed Albanian politicians with the support of the Ottomans. because Albanians were very rebelious and going against Ottomans all the time..... the Albanian you are talking about was a guy working for the Ottomans, Ali Pasha. He wasn't fighting for Albanian idependence from Ottoman empire, he was fighting also against Albanians in south albania. He was an OTTOMAN. But you call him Albanian? Yes his origin was Albanian? but he wasn't fighting for an Albanian cause, he was pro-ottoman. the Albanian cause: see: Albanian national awakening' came later. But what about all the greeks that also worked for Ottomans? What about Murad II ?? Why do greeks call all their muslim population turks when they are not turks but greeks? Some of the first Ottoman servants were greeks. Serbs and Greeks are very good at hiding their collaboration with Ottoman forces and blame it on Albanians. what about your population exchange with Turkey? Atleast Albanians are not trying to hide anything. Albanians were under Ottomans but there was a period called ''Albanian national awakening'' when Albanians started rebelling against Ottomans again and fight for independence, it happened around 19th century - early 20th century. At this point in time you had Serbs working together with Ottomans to stop Albanians because they were promised Kosovo and other lands by the Ottomans.