Is there any difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from Albania?

[Ivan]

Life is not fair. Hg N-O-P-R people were born later thus had to occupy cold Central Asia. The less able died in the cold. The survivors were toughened and made smarter. So they moved north (Siberia) east (China) and west (Anatolia then up the Danube) and even south to India. They had it tough. The R1b that took over Europe did not eliminate all the E and G as the Sea People had advanced weapons who could fight off the R1b people on the coastal areas of southern Europe. The Sea People were E, G and I people.

Yes this could be.

I don't want to wander too much off the topic,
but in defense of neolithic people,

I am not sure if a large state like communities existed in neolithic Europe, or any large groups in hold of territory comparable in scale with today's France or Spain. Maybe they were conscious about common heritage as such, but not sure about forming some sort of town confederations capable of defending common ground and territory.
There were also surely lots of free spaces for new settlers to claim. This does not undermine military success in eradication of previous inhabitants, if that was what happened.

My personal impression is that neolithic people of Europe lived in extended families and tribes in something like a town or more often village structures, were pretty much scattered, and mostly interested in basic survival by defending a small perimeter around their settlement. Some towns though, could have accommodated quite a large community, but were still a small hold in terms of territory.

I think that developed form of agriculture that produced large armies, and boosted population in general, started with the arrival of metal tools, that made better ploughing possible. Also, neolithic farming was at best, modest in terms of production.

 

[oriental]

European civilization began in the south not in the north. The mix of southern E, I and G with the Roman R1b people gave us the Roman Empire while Greek R1a and R1b with the Sea Peoples gave us the Greek or Macedonian Empire.

 

[Ivan]

European civilization began in the south not in the north.

Surely,

My point was that military invasion on neolithic Europe is IMO, a bit stretched, in terms of large armies, and probably not so necessary if we consider vast undefended territories.

 

[kamani]

true human settlement in one place begins mostly in the neolithic with the rise of primitive agriculture. Before that I imagine we were dealing with hunter-gatherers equipped with stone weapons, that moved wherever they could find prey. Pure hunting and gathering can support a very small population, so I imagine pre-neolithic europe to be simmilar to north america right when the europeans got there. Meaning, vast areas of uninhabited land with a few tribes here and there.

 

[Ivan]

true human settlement in one place begins mostly in the neolithic with the rise of primitive agriculture.

The point was not to degrade neolithic settlement importance, nor the value of primitive agriculture as an idea, which was revolutionary for the time, at least in Europe of the time. It was about capability of neolithic people to connect militarily in a common culture, for a common cause, and to engage in a territorial war, on a large scale.

 

[kamani]

This image is the ancient greek mythology family tree for illyrians.
This might shed some light as to where do albanians get their r1b from. I am not totally discounting the romans, ofcourse.

Caesar says the Gauls called themselves Celtae. Gaul was modern France and northern Italy and "Gauls" were the peple who lived there according to the Romans. Linguistically, the people who lived in Gaul were Celts. Tacitus says of the Cotini and the Osi "(they) are not Germans: that is proved by their language, Celtic in the one case, Pannonian in the other"
I might be wrong thou, in assuming that the celts and gauls were R1b

 

[Eldritch]

no offense but to claim that you mention according patriarchical.
according matriarchical
according autosomal

if we consider the sum of E Y-DNA yes you hasve a point, there is a connection in a % of patriarchical

Yes i'm speaking about Y-DNA, we don't know about autosomal yet.

 

[oriental]

I think much of the troubles in Eastern Europe arose with so many past invasions. The Greek city states were in war with each other so right from the start there is conflict. Then the Romans came in and messed things up. With the fall of Rome the Slavs moved in and Venice a city state became a power against the Byzantium Empire and the Ottoman Empire that followed. Not much is studied about this part of history. I only realized how much dispute there is in this part of the world and surprised by it as we never touched on this part of history. I was working in a Toronto factory and the Croatian foreman reacted violently to the Serbian engineer. I got scared and thought there might be blood spilled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Venice

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Venetian_Empire

http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/italyandthecitystates/a/venice.htm

http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=venice

Then there were the plagues during the Huns who killed many people and may have left the dead in the fields instead of burying them thus help create the plague and during the Mongols who did the same with mass killings and left the dead unburied. These plagues decimated the population in the area so the original inhabitants were reduced to a small pool. The Slaves moved in the empty areas and so now we have problems of 'who owns what' and 'who are the rightful people in these lands'?

 

[kamani]

Then there were the plagues during the Huns who killed many people and may have left the dead in the fields instead of burying them thus help create the plague and during the Mongols who did the same with mass killings and left the dead unburied. These plagues decimated the population in the area so the original inhabitants were reduced to a small pool. The Slaves moved in the empty areas and so now we have problems of 'who owns what' and 'who are the rightful people in these lands'?

This is what wikipedia says about the plague, it does not seem to have much to do with battlefields:
"The Black Death is thought to have started in China or central Asia, before spreading west. The plague then travelled along the Silk Road and reached the Crimea by 1346. From there, it was probably carried by Oriental rat fleas living on the black rats that were regular passengers on merchant ships. Spreading throughout the Mediterranean and Europe, the Black Death is estimated to have killed 30–60 percent of Europe's population."

and in 1346 the slavs were already in the balkans.

 

[Ike]

The original question was if there was a difference between Kosovars and Albanians.

The evidence suggest there is.
People from Kosovo seem to be descendant from Africa (E-V13), while Albanians seem to be descendant from Asian people (J2).

 

[gashi91]

The main difference could be like studying Haplogroups from Norway and Denmark.

 

[gashi91]

Or Scandinavian countries, anyway. ***

 

[dardanoilir]

Autosomally speaking? Their Y-DNA have some clear differences with the presence of Slavic Haplogroups (I2a2 and R1a) in Albanians from Albania although i 've seen a map where Kosovars cluster more Northern and Eastern at the same time.
How it's this?

well i can say from my observation that Albanians from Kosovo are far more patriotic than Albanians from Albania, I don't know it if is a cause of the history including the last war in Kosovo or what, but i can see a big difference. One region that is the least mixed with any other race or nationality, is the region of Decan in Kosovo where I come from. now since ppl get married with people of different regions now its hard to find the right sample to study, but again is the least mixed with other races, unless in my case Albanians from montenegro were mixed back then with some other race, cuz my mother's grandmother is native Albanian from montenegro, while my father's side are native of Shkodra and Decan.

 

[albanopolis]

J1 is 2% among Greeks? What kind of glasses do you use?

 

[albanopolis]

some of your thoughts and number areincorrect,

for example R1b could be risen at roman empire from roman legions or roman colonists,
R1a is still strange for me, I don't believe that entered at Slavic migration cause that means that R1a slavicise all balkans so to become Greek? !!!!
Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b
so it is the more details like DYS etc which can help realize.

the E hg is strange case since is connecting with Cyprus and Phoenicians and Kadmeians it seems that was a population entered at balkans from Greece but at archaic times another wave went to Albania which took mountains at Illyrian wars with rome,

the population you mention as 50% of Greece at 1820 is tottaly wrong,
Albanian population was limited where Latin rulers allow it around Athens Theba and some areas in Morea estimated about 150 000 at 1991 from which about 1/3 are Aromani from Albania (Latin speakers-Vlachs) (every ten years population statistics),
especially Northen Greece was not speaking Albanian but Slavomakedonian as third language after Greek and Turkish, Albanians in North Greece lived in the same villages with Turks almost sharing same temples and serve as soldiers of Ottomans. the fights among Greeks and Albanians in North Greece are mention even today, especially in the mountains.
Greek colonisation in Albania is ancient and from history we learn that unite with Illyrians to the mountains so it is difficult to distinguish which is who since same population that colonise until Durress and Lissos. almost the same population return after the liberty of Greece from Ottomans.

a good example to understand 1821 is to find the story of 2 man, Ανδρουτσος and Διακος, Andruzzo (Italian name) Diakos, who grow them up, who was their stepfather and who learn them to fight.

Its becaming clear that artistic and intelligent greeks of antiquity were J2 people. So were the Phoenicians. Knowing the similarities of greek and phoenician alphabets, shipbuilding technics and science of the time, one comes to conclusion that antic greeks were a different branch of phoenicians. So if one today wants to know how the ancient phoenicians spoke its enough to listen to todays greeks. Why do I conclude that ancient greeks were J2? There are about 20 greek antique God names (Zeus, Afrodita, Athens etc..) that can not be explained with present greek language. But they have perfect explanation in Albanian. The reason? Albanians still use part of Pellasgian language, from which the names of this God's come from. The Pellasgians were E and I people. Albanians are still in large part E and I people even today, which means the pellasgian branch. Had Greeks been E, and I people they would have used Zeus today the way Albanians use. The high presence of J1(10%) in greeks shows that they were in proximity with Arabs (Mesopotamia today, where greeks came from, is a fully arabised region). The isolated regions if greece, like Cyprus, Crete and Sicilia are high in J2. J2 were developed and civilised people so there was no way they would lose their language and pick the language of primitiv Pellasgian. The fact that the places in Albania where greeks had colonies have high rate of J2a. That means todays J2a people in Albania are albanised ancient greeks. The huge discrepancy in dna composition in different regions of greece means that Macedonians are not greeks, but another people. Epirus regardles ethnic cleansing of 500 000 Albanians in 1944 remains largly Albanian by DNA. Had Albanians been J2 originally their distribution of haplogroup would have been even from south to north. So DNA is in fact proving what we have all along knowing that a large albanian element (E,J2b) is present in Greece today, and the eforts of greeks to glorifie their nordic origin is virtually dead, and Greeks were and are a middle eastern inteligent element in the European soil.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Life is not fair. Hg N-O-P-R people were born later thus had to occupy cold Central Asia. The less able died in the cold. The survivors were toughened and made smarter. So they moved north (Siberia) east (China) and west (Anatolia then up the Danube) and even south to India. They had it tough. The R1b that took over Europe did not eliminate all the E and G as the Sea People had advanced weapons who could fight off the R1b people on the coastal areas of southern Europe. The Sea People were E, G and I people.

You have my attention with this comment Oriental. Let me challenge you on a couple points though... 1. Just because N-O-P-R were born later doesn't mean that they had to settle in colder climates. To avoid conflict with existing tribes, they may have chosen to move Northward, or they could have stayed put fought for the choice land. The hg D and hg O orientation in modern Japan would be an example of this scenerio. 2. How do you explain hg I1 continued success in the North?

It's my opinion that all of the cold climate people headed North to avoid initial competition, even Neanderthal did this up to 600,000 years ago. There's no such thing as a free lunch though, and winter conditions did force new genetic coping mechanisms over time.

EDIT-- awkward wording about the winter conditions forcing changes in the DNA (that's not how it works, but changes were "selected" by the cold weather... still awkward sounding, but hopefully you'll catch my drift).

 

[kamani]

well i can say from my observation that Albanians from Kosovo are far more patriotic than Albanians from Albania, I don't know it if is a cause of the history including the last war in Kosovo or what, but i can see a big difference.

I have seen patriots and traitors at an equal amount in both actually, but patriotism does not come from y-dna. Genetically speaking, R1a of this area is not all slavic, some of it is very old from the first illyrian settlers who were probably a mix of I1 and R1a.

 

[Dianatomia]

Its becaming clear that artistic and intelligent greeks of antiquity were J2 people. So were the Phoenicians. Knowing the similarities of greek and phoenician alphabets, shipbuilding technics and science of the time, one comes to conclusion that antic greeks were a different branch of phoenicians. So if one today wants to know how the ancient phoenicians spoke its enough to listen to todays greeks. Why do I conclude that ancient greeks were J2? There are about 20 greek antique God names (Zeus, Afrodita, Athens etc..) that can not be explained with present greek language. But they have perfect explanation in Albanian. The reason? Albanians still use part of Pellasgian language, from which the names of this God's come from. The Pellasgians were E and I people. Albanians are still in large part E and I people even today, which means the pellasgian branch. Had Greeks been E, and I people they would have used Zeus today the way Albanians use. The high presence of J1(10%) in greeks shows that they were in proximity with Arabs (Mesopotamia today, where greeks came from, is a fully arabised region). The isolated regions if greece, like Cyprus, Crete and Sicilia are high in J2. J2 were developed and civilised people so there was no way they would lose their language and pick the language of primitiv Pellasgian. The fact that the places in Albania where greeks had colonies have high rate of J2a. That means todays J2a people in Albania are albanised ancient greeks. The huge discrepancy in dna composition in different regions of greece means that Macedonians are not greeks, but another people. Epirus regardles ethnic cleansing of 500 000 Albanians in 1944 remains largly Albanian by DNA. Had Albanians been J2 originally their distribution of haplogroup would have been even from south to north. So DNA is in fact proving what we have all along knowing that a large albanian element (E,J2b) is present in Greece today, and the eforts of greeks to glorifie their nordic origin is virtually dead, and Greeks were and are a middle eastern inteligent element in the European soil.

I believe this has been mentioned before, but more variety of haplogroup E-V13 is Greece than in Albania, which means that E-V13 could not have come from Albanians to Greece, but the way around. Second, some regions in Greece, like Thessaly, have higher amounts of haplogroup E-V13 than is found among Albanians. Also, E-V13 seems to be much older in Greece than in other parts of the Balkans.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

Lastly, just recently a burial of Ancient Athens was discovered and many ancient Greek remains have been excavated. It turns out that the variety of cranial morphology of the types in Ancient Athens is very similar to the current inhabitants of Greece. The same research also found that many Ancient Athenians died of typhoid fever. The face of a twelve year old girl called Myrtis has been reconstructed.

This is for Greek speakers only.

Now, to what extent the Albanians got the J2a from the Greeks, I can not tell. Neither can I confirm weather J2 people are more artistic than E-V13 people. But E-V13 was most certainly present in ancient Greece.

 

[kamani]

I believe this has been mentioned before, but more variety of haplogroup E-V13 is Greece than in Albania, which means that E-V13 could not have come from Albanians to Greece, but the way around. Second, some regions in Greece, like Thessaly, have higher amounts of haplogroup E-V13 than is found among Albanians. Also, E-V13 seems to be much older in Greece than in other parts of the Balkans.

http://dienekes...

dienekes is a personal blog operated by a greek guy, so it might be just a little bias when it comes to talking about greece. Most sources agree that E - v13 has been in the balkans since the neolithic, but nobody is sure where it came from and where was the higher density. Current diversity is also disputable where is the highest, some sources say it is bosnia-montenegro area (read above in this thread). Needless to say both Illyrians and Mychaneans/Dorians found it there when they came, so it is neither albanian nor greek but ancestral to both.

 

[Yetos]

dienekes is a personal blog operated by a greek guy, so it might be just a little bias when it comes to talking about greece. Most sources agree that E - v13 has been in the balkans since the neolithic, but nobody is sure where it came from and where was the higher density. Current diversity is also disputable where is the highest, some sources say it is bosnia-montenegro area (read above in this thread). Needless to say both Illyrians and Mychaneans/Dorians found it there when they came, so it is neither albanian nor greek but ancestral to both.

No,

most sources agree that came maritime,
archaiological evidences place it around 2000 Bc Konya minor Asia,

it has almost zero variances means that is new,
if was >8000 old how many diversities could give?

to understand E-V13 in Balkans,
1) no archaiological found before +- 2000 BC
2) almost Zero diversities in high peaks,
3) most variances are in south Greece, except one that is Bosna, while Albania and Kossovo show no diversity,