Is there any difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from Albania?

[Dema]

Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from Albania are very similar in genetics. Ydna and autosomal wise. For example i am Kosovar Albanian but i have Albanians from Albania on autosomal relative list. Especialy North Albanians and Montenegro ones.

Kosovo Albanians are mostly from North Albanian 17 century Gheg expansion but also old Kosovo Albanians and Kosovo Vlachs joined with minor Slavic influence of around 5 to max 10 per cent.

Even tho this thread is old, i must notice how much stupidity is written there only on first couple of pages.

 

[Nik]

Kosovo Albanians are mostly from North Albanian 17 century Gheg expansion but also old Kosovo Albanians and Kosovo Vlachs joined with minor Slavic influence of around 5 to max 10 per cent.

That North Albania in the 17th century you mentioned includes big parts of modern Kosovo and many back and fourth migrations happened. But if you wanna go even earlier it was people from modern Kosovo, South Serbia, Herzegovina, Montenegro, etc. that came to North, Central, South Albania, and even down to Greece becoming Arvanites.

The movement of a few members of certain North Albanian mountain clans definitely didn't change the ethnic composition of Kosovo, especially now that genetics has continuously proven how all clans in Kosovo include several haplogroups and do not descend from 1 ancestor, Berisha-Sopi being the exception.

That said, there's no difference between Kosovo, South Serbia, Montenegro, North and Central Albanians, and Albanians from Macedonia. The difference is only with South Albania due to its higher R1a, I2a, and J2a haplgroups.

 

[Aspurg]

I took a look at the Asia Minor Greek samples from "The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization", and in Smyrna there were 6 Z2705 (dys393=13) so these ofc look clearly Arvanite having close matches with Albanians. However I noticed also one FGC11450 Cluster A, F20 from Smyrna (dys458=14, dys460=10, GATAH4=10) and 2/32 with closest Albanian. This is interesting because this cluster already has Arvanites, Greek from Euboea (where there was Arvanite presence) is 3/37 with one Albanian.


Also there are 3 Z17107>BY4461, 2 in Smyrna. F2 from Smyrna has only few STR's but on those he seems closer to BY4461 F90 from Phocaea than to F49 from Smyrna (3/25 to 5/25 and a match on dys458=19). F90 and F2 seem likely connected to a BY4461 Turk, who seems closely related to a Macedonian, who in turn on a high number of STR's seems only about 800-900 years away from Albanian E-Y92017 cluster so clearly these Greeks look Arvanite.


F49 from Smyrna looks definitely related to a Bulgarian Turk (due to his dys446 value), who is 11/67 with one Paloka and only 7/67 to Paloka from Ungrej. So he too looks Arvanite.


So among Smyrna Greeks there seems to exist unexpectedly a significant Arvanite presence, with 9/58 that is 15 %. In Phocaea there was one BY4461 but he seems like an immigrant from Smyrna. J-L283 seems not to have been present among Arvanites there, there is only one M241 in the study and he has some unusual values like dys19=17, dys447=29..



I wanted to post in "Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA" thread.. :grin: So mods please move it there if it doesn't belong here, albeit it still deals with Albanians. I don't think there is a special "Arvanite Y-DNA theme"..

 

[Aspurg]

About differences between Kosovo and Albanians from Albania, one notable difference is the Berisha-Sopi cluster E-FGC33614. In the "Y chromosome haplotypes in Albanian population from Kosovo" study it makes up 12 % of haplotypes (14/117), while it is much more rare in Albanians from Albania, none from the Arberesh study, one from Tirana (Aromanian study).. E-FGC33614 is seemingly to a significant degree behind the elevated E-V13 percentage in Kosovo Albanians.

 

[Johane Derite]

I took a look at the Asia Minor Greek samples from "The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization", and in Smyrna there were 6 Z2705 (dys393=13) so these ofc look clearly Arvanite having close matches with Albanians. However I noticed also one FGC11450 Cluster A, F20 from Smyrna (dys458=14, dys460=10, GATAH4=10) and 2/32 with closest Albanian. This is interesting because this cluster already has Arvanites, Greek from Euboea (where there was Arvanite presence) is 3/37 with one Albanian.


Also there are 3 Z17107>BY4461, 2 in Smyrna. F2 from Smyrna has only few STR's but on those he seems closer to BY4461 F90 from Phocaea than to F49 from Smyrna (3/25 to 5/25 and a match on dys458=19). F90 and F2 seem likely connected to a BY4461 Turk, who seems closely related to a Macedonian, who in turn on a high number of STR's seems only about 800-900 years away from Albanian E-Y92017 cluster so clearly these Greeks look Arvanite.


F49 from Smyrna looks definitely related to a Bulgarian Turk (due to his dys446 value), who is 11/67 with one Paloka and only 7/67 to Paloka from Ungrej. So he too looks Arvanite.


So among Smyrna Greeks there seems to exist unexpectedly a significant Arvanite presence, with 9/58 that is 15 %. In Phocaea there was one BY4461 but he seems like an immigrant from Smyrna. J-L283 seems not to have been present among Arvanites there, there is only one M241 in the study and he has some unusual values like dys19=17, dys447=29..



I wanted to post in "Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA" thread.. :grin: So mods please move it there if it doesn't belong here, albeit it still deals with Albanians. I don't think there is a special "Arvanite Y-DNA theme"..

Very interesting find Aspurg!

 

[Leka]

Agreed, FGC33625 looks like an interesting branch. Most likely was a minor lineage in the past. So far it looks like it only expanded with Berisha and Sopi from North Albania (Puka), but mostly north-east into Kosove.

Not the only one however, there are similar cases in other regions but not as successful.

 

[IllyrianDodona]

This wiki map... is by no means proof of anything. And if you want to your pov to be considered seriously, dont cite open access platforms. Just FYI.

 

[Aspurg]

I took a look at the Asia Minor Greek samples from "The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization", and in Smyrna there were 6 Z2705 (dys393=13) so these ofc look clearly Arvanite having close matches with Albanians. However I noticed also one FGC11450 Cluster A, F20 from Smyrna (dys458=14, dys460=10, GATAH4=10) and 2/32 with closest Albanian. This is interesting because this cluster already has Arvanites, Greek from Euboea (where there was Arvanite presence) is 3/37 with one Albanian.

So Greek kit 305424 is an Arvanite from Euboea, falls in Albanian cluster A. Lets see about cluster B, Y146086: Greek kits 295944 and IN37597 are both 3/37 with Qendro from Tepelenë in Southern Albania, and 1/37 & 3/37 with Metaj. Qendro and Metaj represent a sub-cluster within Albanian Y146086 with a back mutation on dys447 and obviously considering far greater diversity of this clade among Albanians and him being Tosk both of these Greeks seem to be of certain Arvanite origin. So thus far of four Greek E-FGC11450 with more STR's all of them are of Arvanite origin. Going by this it seems vast majority of Greek FGC11450 are Arvanites as is the case with E-BY4461.

 

[Trojet]

So Greek kit 305424 is an Arvanite from Euboea, falls in Albanian cluster A. Lets see about cluster B, Y146086: Greek kits 295944 and IN37597 are both 3/37 with Qendro from Tepelenë in Southern Albania, and 1/37 & 3/37 with Metaj. Qendro and Metaj represent a sub-cluster within Albanian Y146086 with a back mutation on dys447 and obviously considering far greater diversity of this clade among Albanians and him being Tosk both of these Greeks seem to be of certain Arvanite origin. So thus far of four Greek E-FGC11450 with more STR's all of them are of Arvanite origin. Going by this it seems vast majority of Greek FGC11450 are Arvanites as is the case with E-BY4461.

Yes, we're finding that E-FGC11450, and especially E-FGC11450>Y146086, is very common among Tosks. Currently, out of 56 E-V13 Tosk Y37+ haplotypes, 24 or 42.8% of Tosk E-V13 is E-FGC11450. Furthermore, 18/24 of them are E-FGC11450>Y146086, 4/24 are E-FGC11450>Cluster A, and the remaining two don't fit into any of these clusters. One of them is SNP tested: FGC11450+ and Z24130- Y146086- BY5004- FGC11446-. YSEQ doesn't test ZS1176/FGC11444, so he should be either E-FGC11450* or E-FGC11450>ZS1176* by current research. Also, both E-FGC11450>Y146086 and E-FGC11450>Cluster A have been observed among Ghegs, though the first one is far more common among Tosks. So yes, those Greeks clustering with Albanians certainly seem Arvanite in origin.

 

[Frosty_Chateux]

The Balkans are a very diverse and mixed place and it's the oldest part of Europe, this is a fact. So it's not that strange you have a lot of territorial pissing contests. It's not some genetic hatred we have for one another, it's basically all politics and bickering over history.
From my experince Balkan people in diaspora get along with each other very well, regardless of ethnicity. Here in the states I've had Albanian friends, Kosovar Albanias, Bosniak, Croats, Serbs. None of them hate each other to the contrary they're always friendly and respectful and get along real well. It's like we know we're from the same region and we share similar cultures and customs and that brings us closer. Even religion doesn't create obstacles. It's a shame we can't get along better in our native lands. I blame politics for that and difficult economic conditions and a lot of propaganda. The current nationalism and racism has spread like a plague in Balkans especially since the late 80's and most of the people got nothing positive from it, only a very small percentage capitalized on it.

Albanians are mostly in their own cliques, they don't hang out or relate too much with Balkan Slavs from what I've seen. "Balkan culture" is mostly code for Yugoslavia, Albania was separate from them and had a more orthodox form of communism.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

North albanians = least "foreign" input, communist regime probably helped with that

Kosovar/macedonian albanians = more south slavic input

South albanians/tosks = more south slavic input (this is puzzling), more greek or maybe more italian input

Arbereshe = were the tosks of old, similar to current tosks but had even more south slavic/greek input? And obviously more italian input after they settled in italy
I find it weird that tosks have more south slavic y dna input but then greeks have even more so not sure what happened there. The greek input is less puzzling because it seems like proto albanians moved south into formerly greek areas and especially illyrians prior did, so the +5% greek y dna would likely be from the natives that lived amongst proto albanians when they conquered the region

 

[Riverman]

North albanians = least "foreign" input, communist regime probably helped with that

Kosovar/macedonian albanians = more south slavic input

South albanians/tosks = more south slavic input (this is puzzling), more greek or maybe more italian input

Arbereshe = were the tosks of old, similar to current tosks but had even more south slavic/greek input? And obviously more italian input

I find it weird that tosks have more south slavic input but then greeks have even more so not sure what happened there. The greek (or italian) input is less puzzling because it seems like proto albanians moved south into formerly greek areas and especially illyrians prior did, so the +5% greek y dna would likely be from the natives that lived amongst proto albanians when they conquered the region

Which paternal and maternal haplogroups could be associated with this. Might be interesting but complicated to investigate.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Which paternal and maternal haplogroups could be associated with this. Might be interesting but complicated to investigate.

I was stricly speaking about y dna, looks like some g2a and j2a in south albania is from greek natives that were assimilated when proto albanians moved south? Looking at some of the lines I ran into these concrete answers, if i had more time i would look into every line but it seems i oversold a greek origin as roman origin could be more prevalent? -

The DNA of two male Minoan indivuals was tested in 2020 and they belonged to G2a-P303 and J2a1a-L26 > Z6055 > Y7010 > Y13128 > Z36834 (a branch found in Portugal today).
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-P303/
(3 albanians so far have this, 2 gjirokaster/1 korce)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z36834/
(2 albanians so far have this from vlore)

However, it looks like some j2a in albanians is also from imperial romans. They apparently carried 50% J lines, mostly j2a but also some j2b including m205!
J2a1a 1-400 CE J-Z6271
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6271/
(6 albanians so far have this, 5 tirane/1 gjirokaster)

This looks roman as well, 2 samples were found in viminacium -
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-L497/
(2 albanians so far have this from gjirokaster)

 

[Riverman]

I was stricly speaking about y dna, looks like some g2a and j2a in south albania is from greek natives that were assimilated when proto albanians moved south? Looking at some of the lines I ran into these concrete answers, if i had more time i would look into every line but it seems i oversold a greek origin as roman origin could be more prevalent? -
The DNA of two male Minoan indivuals was tested in 2020 and they belonged to G2a-P303 and J2a1a-L26 > Z6055 > Y7010 > Y13128 > Z36834 (a branch found in Portugal today).
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-P303/
(3 albanians so far have this, 2 gjirokaster/1 korce)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z36834/
(2 albanians so far have this from vlore)
However, it looks like some j2a in albanians is also from imperial romans. They apparently carried 50% J lines, mostly j2a but also some j2b including m205!
J2a1a 1-400 CE J-Z6271
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6271/
(6 albanians so far have this, 5 tirane/1 gjirokaster)
This looks roman as well, 2 samples were found in viminacium -
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-L497/
(2 albanians so far have this from gjirokaster)

Talking about Roman or more generally Northern source regions, I guess a lot of the E-V13 will be shown to have come from Roman times too, especially subclades with "no framework" in Albanians, but rather singular lineages with a later founder effect.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Talking about Roman or more generally Northern source regions, I guess a lot of the E-V13 will be shown to have come from Roman times too, especially subclades with "no framework" in Albanians, but rather singular lineages with a later founder effect.

I understand but i was speaking of actual roman natives, the imperials that spoke latin - apparently 50% of them carried J lines, mostly j2a

It is unlikely they had much to do with v13 internally (maybe a small percentage) but as we know the romans deployed various people from within their empire so of course romanized v13 people would have also moved around with the romans when need be and would have had to settle in far away places for their title/employment reasons

Reason why i have confidence in suggesting they had little to do with v13 genetically is because we find very little u152 in balkans today, even less than the g2a and obviously j lines they carried, especially j2a. If imperial romans carried 50% j lines, 15-20% g2a and lets also say 15-20% u152 (though it should be more right?), 5-10% T, it leaves very little room for anything else to explain the boom of v13 in balkans

 

[Riverman]

Yes, completely agree. I rather spoke about Balkan IA people moving southward as Roman provincials from various tribes especially in the migration period. We know from many regions that they tried to invade the tribal conquerors and moved to areas dominated by Romans and allies. Albania and the more Southern Balkan might have served as sort of a refuge in the early stages of people from the Danubian provinces for example.

 

[Hawk]

Yes, completely agree. I rather spoke about Balkan IA people moving southward as Roman provincials from various tribes especially in the migration period. We know from many regions that they tried to invade the tribal conquerors and moved to areas dominated by Romans and allies. Albania and the more Southern Balkan might have served as sort of a refuge in the early stages of people from the Danubian provinces for example.

Self-serving hypothesis are not good buddy, trying to [Balto-Slavicize, Iranicize] E-V13 is absurd, it has nothing to do with those aforementioned or related people(Thraco-Cimmerians, which is a culture that started in North Caucasus => clearly hinting Indo-Iranian core ancestry). It's an attempt which will be dismissed in the papers that will come out sooner or latter.

Well, even Romanians/Moldovans have failed so far to show any kind of significant E-V13 diversity (we haven't seen any so far, despite this idea being pushed by some). It looks like the core E-V13 was in Central and South Balkans during EIA.

 

[Riverman]

Self-serving hypothesis are not good buddy, trying to [Balto-Slavicize, Iranicize] E-V13 is absurd, it has nothing to do with those aforementioned or related people(Thraco-Cimmerians, which is a culture that started in North Caucasus => clearly hinting Indo-Iranian core ancestry). It's an attempt which will be dismissed in the papers that will come out sooner or latter.

Well, even Romanians/Moldovans have failed so far to show any kind of significant E-V13 diversity (we haven't seen any so far, despite this idea being pushed by some). It looks like the core E-V13 was in Central and South Balkans during EIA.

These two things being actually connected, because the Cimmerians were foreign to the region and pushed and destroyed many of the Daco-Thracian/Channelled Ware groups. There were basically two major surviving nests: In the North, in the mountainous regions, especially Transcarpathia and in the South, from where Psenichevo and Bosut-Basarabi emerged. But those groups in between, and this is key, didn't completely disappear, and even Bosut-Basarabi became heavily influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. Note the difference:
- Cimmerians
- Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and its influence

The latter soon became completely mixed but was very influential for the developing cultures, especially of the Basarabi-Hallstatt sphere. So in the end, while we already know the earliest Cimmerians were different people, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, as a migration event and cultural horizon, spread Daco-Thracian ancestry wide and far.

Its similar to the later Thraco-Scythians and Geto-Scythians, of which we already have plenty of samples: They are usually much more Pannonian and Thracian-like respectively than anything else! And its from these mixed groups, of which some even retained Daco-Thracian languages, that there were wider spread and backflow onto the steppe. You might have noticed in papers about Carpathian "Scythians" that their ceramic is fairly conservative and regional at first. The question is just: How much of this was female transmitted, how well did the males? I'd say that E-V13 got in their former core regions heavily reduced, both by Cimmerians and Scythians, but didn't disappear. Whereas in the more Southern centres, in which these Cimmerian and Scythian influences remained primarily culturally, and there never was such a big impact, more of the regional paternal ancestry survived.
That's at least up to this point my impression, unless they had the biggest founder effects in Psenichevo-Basarabi to begin with. To explore that, we need many samples from the cultural formations in the Northern Carpathians, for the phases in which some of them at least didn't cremate. Then it can be checked probably. F?szesabony-late Otomani might prove to be interesting as well.

Thraco-Cimmerian influences spread very far and wide, deeply into Central Europe. These weren't all pure Cimmerians, especially in the later stages.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Self-serving hypothesis are not good buddy, trying to [Balto-Slavicize, Iranicize] E-V13 is absurd, it has nothing to do with those aforementioned or related people(Thraco-Cimmerians, which is a culture that started in North Caucasus => clearly hinting Indo-Iranian core ancestry). It's an attempt which will be dismissed in the papers that will come out sooner or latter.
Well, even Romanians/Moldovans have failed so far to show any kind of significant E-V13 diversity (we haven't seen any so far, despite this idea being pushed by some). It looks like the core E-V13 was in Central and South Balkans during EIA.

Yes and i do find it funny how people look at autosomnal dna from clearly heavily celtic mixed samples and then say how come modern albanians arent closely related to these, why are they are more "near east shifted". Of course modern albanians would be more near east shifted because the ancient samples we have from western balkans so far are all very north within the tumulus/urnfield network. They were mixed with the italo celtic people maternally

 

[Hawk]

These two things being actually connected, because the Cimmerians were foreign to the region and pushed and destroyed many of the Daco-Thracian/Channelled Ware groups. There were basically two major surviving nests: In the North, in the mountainous regions, especially Transcarpathia and in the South, from where Psenichevo and Bosut-Basarabi emerged. But those groups in between, and this is key, didn't completely disappear, and even Bosut-Basarabi became heavily influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. Note the difference:
- Cimmerians
- Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and its influence

The latter soon became completely mixed but was very influential for the developing cultures, especially of the Basarabi-Hallstatt sphere. So in the end, while we already know the earliest Cimmerians were different people, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, as a migration event and cultural horizon, spread Daco-Thracian ancestry wide and far.

Its similar to the later Thraco-Scythians and Geto-Scythians, of which we already have plenty of samples: They are usually much more Pannonian and Thracian-like respectively than anything else! And its from these mixed groups, of which some even retained Daco-Thracian languages, that there were wider spread and backflow onto the steppe. You might have noticed in papers about Carpathian "Scythians" that their ceramic is fairly conservative and regional at first. The question is just: How much of this was female transmitted, how well did the males? I'd say that E-V13 got in their former core regions heavily reduced, both by Cimmerians and Scythians, but didn't disappear. Whereas in the more Southern centres, in which these Cimmerian and Scythian influences remained primarily culturally, and there never was such a big impact, more of the regional paternal ancestry survived.
That's at least up to this point my impression, unless they had the biggest founder effects in Psenichevo-Basarabi to begin with. To explore that, we need many samples from the cultural formations in the Northern Carpathians, for the phases in which some of them at least didn't cremate. Then it can be checked probably. F�szesabony-late Otomani might prove to be interesting as well.

Thraco-Cimmerian influences spread very far and wide, deeply into Central Europe. These weren't all pure Cimmerians, especially in the later stages.

They might have played some minimal role, but absolutely nothing significant, at least i am not convinced, sorry.

We have discussed before, i am of the opinion, in fact, it's very straightforward. Gava/Channeled-Ware along with some other Middle Danube Urnfield, Grla-Mare/Dubovac-Zuto Brdo/Brnjica, Vatin, Paracin/Mediana, Psenicevo-Babadag. All of these had E-V13, some more some less.

I find the Thraco-Cimmerian label ambigious, we don't know who they were, and where did they come from, what language did they spoke, and who were their descendants. It's all open to interpretations.