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Thread: Kosovo Albanians Haplogroups?

  1. #26
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    look at my other post where I explained to the I2a. This theory is supported by researchers that I2a came from Sarmatians that were slavicized from Central Europe. Called Serboi. You don't find it interesting? They called their place White-Serbia and White Croatia. But interesting enough nobody is picking up on this.

    As for the Illyrians. They spoke the same language and had the same culture, they were different tribes yes, but they were seen by outsiders as the same people this is why they were called Illyrians. I really don't understand your point. You are also forgetting Dardanians were Illyrians. but mixed also with Thracians.

    Thraco-illyrian became one language...

    Illyrians didn't speak different languages, they spoke the same... you don't call a people the same name if they are different in culture and language. if they spoke different language how did they communicate when they reunited against macedonians and other neighbors?

    Yes, they were different tribes. they didn't consider themselves Illyrians.

    But the name Illyrian was originally a tribe from todays albania that came in contact with Greeks but then Greeks started using this Illyrian name for all the people around there that spoke the same language.

    And interesting enough allot of the findings of Illyrian writings etc. have been found in greek

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    So the name Illirian was actually a word in ''Illyrian'' .. interesting enough liri means free in Albanian.. so this tribe called Ilirian might of called themselves free, or land of the free... so the greeks picked this word up from the tribe and started calling all the tribes around this region that spoke the same language for 'Ilirians' even though they were tribes with their own names.

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    What I'm saying is the Serboi tribe from Sarmatia settled in West-Poland, they called this place white-Serbia (White: West so West Serbia) they became slavicized in culture, they stayed there assimilated, and then the Slavs moved to the Balkans.

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    Also, I am Albanian from Kosovo. to be exact from the Drenica valley. This region has a history of resistance against Ottoman Turks and Serbs. And I wonder what result I would get if I did a genetic test. According to the map of Dardania in ancient times, the Drenica valley was located in the middle of ancient Dardania, today it's in north-kosovo.

    Also, I don't care if Albanians are Illyrians or not. I'm not claiming to be one.. I'm here because I find it interesting. I'm not here to argue or spread nationalism. But I find this very interesting.

    Balkan history is a mysterium.

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    I know this is about Kosovar Albanians but here is some interesting stuff I found about South-Slavs, I remember even some member here talking about this that South-Slavs originally might of originated from the border north italy, and close. around czechia.. Maybe this deserves it's own thread.


    Facts that support this theory are, the sharing of the linguistical grammar structure between the West Slav (Czech, Slovak, Polish) and the South Slav (Serb and Croat) language, that differs from the grammar structure of the Bulgarian language that also belongs to the South Slavic group, the toponyms found in the region, north Bohemia (Srbsko, Srbská Kamenice etc. as well as the toponyms containing the ethnonym Chorvat, in the adjacent regions). Lusatian Slavic population still bearing the name Serbs in their native language. The region of Bohemia was known as the region of the
    Boii to the Romans, as well as the Byzantines, after the Celtic Boii tribe settling the region before Slavs. Byzantines often described people by the region (Tribalians, Thracians, Illyrians) they inhabited, eventhough the eponymous tribes were long extinct, rather than by the native names of the tribes they were carrying. The region called Boiheim by the western Rome (German suffix -heim) and Boika by the eastern Rome (Slavic suffix -ka) relates to the current region of Bohemiaand corresponds to the ancestral region of White Serbia (stated as Boika in the De Administrando Imperio, chapter 32).

    "The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking a moiety of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination."...
    ..."Now, after some time these same Serbs decided to depart to their own homes, and the emperor sent them off. But when they had crossed the river Danube, they changed their minds and sent a request to the emperor Heraclius, through the military governor then governing Belgrade, that he would grant them other land to settle in."...
    ..."And since what is now Rascia (Serbia) and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumi and Trebounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for they had expelled from those parts the Romans who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries, and they were subject to the emperor of the Romans; and the emperor brought elders from Rome and baptized them and taught them fairly to perform the works of piety and expounded to them the faith of the Christians."...
    ..."And since Bulgaria was beneath the dominion of the Romans * * * when, therefore, that same Serbian prince died who had claimed the emperor's protection, his son ruled in succession, and thereafter his grandson, and in like manner the succeeding princes from his family"...
    -De Administrando Imperio chapter 32, Constantine VII[7]


    According to the historical and archeological data present at time, Serbs and Sorbs (South and North Serbs), were around 1400 years ago the same Polabian Slavic tribe. At the beginning of the 7th century it came to a split in between the tribe, the northern Serbs that stayed (now known as Lusatian Sorbs or Wends) were largely assimilated by the greater Slavic tribes (Poles, Czechs) as well as non-Slavic nations (Germans) immensely influencing their language and culture by the Polish and the German one. The southern Serbs on the other hand, conquered and assimilated lesser Slavic tribes, as well as the romanised Illyrian and Thracian population[9] of the Roman empire in Southeastern Europe, into their own Slavic tribe, thus laying the foundation for the medieval Serbian state.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

    turkey in the text I think it means magyars from hungary, as it says.


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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I don't want to revisit this again but the Hungarian Alfoldy ,English Wilkins and others all state the same 5 power tribes of the Illyrians as the Romans did
    Illyria identified as five principal onomastic provinces within the Illyrian area:
    1) the "real" Illyrians Autariates, south of the river Neretva in Dalmatia and extending south to Drin river besides Epirus
    2) the
    Dalmatians, who occupied the middle Adriatic coast between the Autariates to the south and the Liburnians to the north
    3) the
    Liburnians, a branch of Venetic in the northeast coastal Adriatic area
    4) the
    Iapodes, who live north of the Dalmatians and inland of the coastal Liburnians
    5) the
    Pannonians in the northern lands

    These are the same as what the Romans called them, of course there are minor tribes inside each of these.

    The reason there is no E in northern Illyricum is because they are different people, different languages, different customs, as an example, the Liburni had only queens as rulers and tatooed their necks, no others did this.

    you can tell form this link, chart 2, that certain haplogroups change as you move north south east and west
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title
    that is correct.
    these are the Illiricum tribes and only the first first Autariates are connected with what Greeks call Illyrians, and surely with today Albanian population.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beast View Post
    look at my other post where I explained to the I2a. This theory is supported by researchers that I2a came from Sarmatians that were slavicized from Central Europe. Called Serboi. You don't find it interesting? They called their place White-Serbia and White Croatia. But interesting enough nobody is picking up on this.

    As for the Illyrians. They spoke the same language and had the same culture, they were different tribes yes, but they were seen by outsiders as the same people this is why they were called Illyrians. I really don't understand your point. You are also forgetting Dardanians were Illyrians. but mixed also with Thracians.

    Thraco-illyrian became one language...

    Illyrians didn't speak different languages, they spoke the same... you don't call a people the same name if they are different in culture and language. if they spoke different language how did they communicate when they reunited against macedonians and other neighbors?

    Yes, they were different tribes. they didn't consider themselves Illyrians.

    But the name Illyrian was originally a tribe from todays albania that came in contact with Greeks but then Greeks started using this Illyrian name for all the people around there that spoke the same language.

    And interesting enough allot of the findings of Illyrian writings etc. have been found in greek
    the case of I2a in Dalmatian ALps is written in a special post, it seems central EUropean subclade origin, you can read the posts in the forum, they almost say the same you describe.

    Correct, Ancient Illyrians had the same curse of Thracians and Greeks, Thracian in Greek means broken, divided,
    the historical data give same for Illyrians major division in Dardanians and Illyro thracian culture didvided in major 2 tribes, and Illyria proprie divided to 4-6 tribes like Taulanti Autariates etc

    The different languages is not among Ilyrian tribes but among Illyricum tribes,
    Iapodes Liburnians are not Illyrians to ancient Greeks, the are named as Illyrians from Roman Illyricum
    Pannonians Dalmatians might be relative to the one component that synthesize Illyrians, the one I called Celtic, which surely is Central European, that component with the Pelasgian is the basic components of Illyrian (Albanian population) nations.

    hmmm Do toy suggest that Illyria is an exonyme? Historical facts show that used the name of Illyros so it could be an esonyme,

    Until second century in Illyria there was the tomp of Illyrus, I beleive that Illyrians would be proud to Have it and use the name, that was until Christianity times, In christianity times except the destruction of ancient Greek monuments we also have destruction of Thracian and Illyrian monuments,
    All people in East Roman empire were named Romans and only Christianity was allowed,
    it is even possible that some Illyrians to be accused for paganism.

    so for me Illyri is an esonyme, an endonyme meaning the sons of Illyros,
    consider that same philosophy we find in Danaoi (sons of Danae) Makednoi (sons of Makedon) etc


    So the population of Albania and Kossovo at a big % seems to be the old Illyrian, the main problem is the Language,
    Albanian language show elements of all neighborhood and not IE Pelasgian, but follows aspirrations of Northern languages, like Germanic Slavic Baltic, that is making it a more North-East language than the area of today Albania,
    The only Northern population that is known in Albania is the Goranjie but they do not seem to enter these aspirations,
    Goranjie population does not seem to give these aspirations to Albanian language
    The only Historical data that can explain this phenomenon is the Getan colonists, especially in Dardania as also Germidava and others in Albania
    a possible Visigothic or ostrogothic influence or devastation
    The Maniakis army (Arbanites)
    the Hunjiades army which we know settled in Albania after the battles

    The truth is that all modern Balcanic nationalities comes from a mix of an older, with a new one,

    for example in some areas in Makedonia still call Slavic Makedonians and Serbs as Triballi,
    we all say Bulgaria but it is a mix of Thracian Greeks Slavic and Turkic (Bulgars) population
    Greece a mix of ancient Greeks Romans but also includes Slavic Bulgaric Moesian and Arbanitan population
    Consider Turkey, how many older populations exists there.
    yet today majority speaks Turkish and accept Islam as religion,
    Last edited by Yetos; 18-08-12 at 14:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beast View Post
    Also, looking at it again, the R1b in Albanians might not of come from Proto-Celts but rather from the Roman empire. We are forgetting the Roman Empire.

    Come to think of it the R1b in Britain might also be from Romans.

    But of course these might be different subclades or how it's called.. excuse me for my english.

    Somehow the Albanians were Catholics and South Albanians Greek Orthodox, some still are. meaning they must of been around during Roman empire.. they couldn't of migrated there after, or else it would of been historically recorded.
    I repeat, for I know Y-R1b in Balkans (except in some parts of Croatia) is of very different subclades compared to the celtic countries ones
    Y-DNA of Roman soldiers and some marchants is surely very light among present day celtic countries of Brittain,even if not unsignificant -
    North-West Balkans population share HG's and other genes with South Balkans or N-E Balkans, but in very different proportions - so I see there some mixings but some different origins at the same time
    for linguists it seams that now populations from North Illyria WAS closer to venetic tribes than to true illyrian or thracian-illyrian ones -
    albanian would seam send there by a previously more eastern population (some phonetic links with Dacians or Getians) according to specialists, yet related even if not too closely, to thracian - I suppose that the Tosques are more autochtonous than the Geghs (+ Kossovars) and less "albanian" by the fact: Epirots??? links with Macedonians???

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Link me in which you refer,

    Its odd that croatians, bosnians, montenegrians, albanians and serbians all want a piece of the illyrian DNA solely to justify their identity and lay claims to lands . But Illyrians did not see themselves as Illyrians, they all had different DNA, they all had different dynasties, they warred against each other and never aligned with each other in any major degree except Teuta in the south against the Romans and previuosly when 2 tribes united against Macedonia of Philip II and his son Alexander. The illyrians never laid claims beyond the Drin river as south of this was either epirote and later macedonian lands.

    The naming of Illyria was firstly a greek name and later used by the Romans to indicate varoius tribes/people who had different cultures and languages in a geographical area named Illyria/Illyricum. Its like the Sarmatians where all different peoples and their huge lands had different races..........another is the Golden Horde and many many more
    I ask you to link your study and you came out with the same ad-nauseum fact. Linking Albanians with Illyrians have no real land pretensions. It is just as it is. Albanians have preserved their language and the preservance of language means better preservance of genes too.

    I suppose that the Tosques are more autochtonous than the Geghs (+ Kossovars) and less "albanian" by the fact: Epirots??? links with Macedonians???
    Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    I ask you to link your study and you came out with the same ad-nauseum fact. Linking Albanians with Illyrians have no real land pretensions. It is just as it is. Albanians have preserved their language and the preservance of language means better preservance of genes too.


    As per post 20 , link me who you referred too as ......... Because the usual thing that happens is anything the placed is ridiculed by nationalistic sentiment
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    There is no data on Illyrian DNA. Enlighten me and post that data but before you do that don't link that Croatian pseudo-study pdf crap please.


    What you have done here with your points taken here is making a fool out of yourself.
    link it , I want to read this crap

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    I find interesting that although Shem or Sem for Semite is fictional supposedly as Ham or the Hamitics, they still chose to use the term Semitics?

    Science, Religion and even Mythology have always been manipulated by certain groups, and on science on the Genetic side they claim the E-V13 as farmers, what a doubious claim, then the Bible explicitly talks about Cush and Nimrod, yet He is trying to be discredited by the Semites and the Japhetics
    and Mythology even Saturn is clearly Nimrod, they picture him totally as anything but an E-v13

    the whole world is divided in the following way:
    Either you are
    1) Hamitic (Halopgroups D or E or O among others)
    2)Semitic (Halopgroups I or J)
    3)Caucasian-aryan-Japhethic (R or P or Q or G Halopgroups)

    yet over and over we see the last two groups falsely claim the the Hamitic achievements as follows:

    The Semites falsely claim as Semites the following:
    Albert Einstein He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
    Shalom Ben Amram Samaritan High Priest He is an E-M35 a Hamitic

    Japhethics or Caucasians Falsely Claim as Caucasians the Following:
    The Wright Brothers they are E-M35 Hamitics
    Hittler He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
    Pope Paul V He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
    Caravaggio He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
    So see guys E-M35 comes in White Brown Yellow Black
    And it can be found in:
    Europe Latin America North America the Middle East Asia and Africa

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    link it , I want to read this crap
    You were the one who mentioned about study upon Illyrian Y-DNA not me. Don't act goofy. I don't know the name of the study exactly since i didn't even take and read seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    2007 data on illyrian dna has nothing for kosovo and on albania it gets only 27% ( E3b1-M178 ...renamed now to something else ) and 14.30% ( J2-M172) of illyrian from the Taulantii tribe of illyrians. The kosovo where , if they existed there in the ancient times , the dardanians .

    but there is speculation that the Taulanti where Epirotes and not illyrian ...........this is still being discussed
    ^ Here is what you exactly said in your post. I just know there is a Croatian pseudo-scientific paper about Y-DNA distribution among Illyrian tribes. So your assumption comes from that i guess if not link the 2007 datas upon Illyrians.

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    Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania.

    amazing what you are saying (writing) here!
    a lot of Slavs descendants among Tosks? I partially disagree -
    I2a1b-Din was not arrived there with Slavs only - there was a lot of bearers among Balkans populations before yet - Y-R1a is common among Slavs but some of them could be older in Balkans too (even some Hellenes could have hadsome variants of Y-R1a) - I do not know where your data are coming from, but Albanians as a whole do not show too much R1a (about 9%?) nor too much I2a1b (about 14%?) - the only very striking difference with Kossovars is about Y-E1b1 by far higher among Kosovars (about 25% to 43%?)... So I do not think that Slavs influence is very heavy in S-Albanians (it is confirmed apparently by phenotypes): I should put the % of 10% at most, not discarding history ; I think yet Kosovars are "purest", but alos for other causes: true Albanians was more "central" and they push on previous Epirus populations taking a foot on Adriatic seashores only recently enough - maybe have you some precise data about Tosks and Kosovars?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania.
    can you say what are these sources, I would like to know where these slavic settlements were in south of Albania

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    [QUOTE=Yetos;398299]
    hmmm Do toy suggest that Illyria is an exonyme? Historical facts show that used the name of Illyros so it could be an esonyme,
    sorry for intruding just wanted to say that whether Illyria is an exonym is open to interpretation. To us Albanians it's easy to understand the word as "i lir"=free one (person)

    The only Northern population that is known in Albania is the Goranjie but they do not seem to enter these aspirations,
    Goranjie population does not seem to give these aspirations to Albanian language
    I would like to know what is this population, do you mean people called the Gora people? the muslim slavs?

    The only Historical data that can explain this phenomenon is the Getan colonists, especially in Dardania as also Germidava and others in Albania a possible Visigothic or ostrogothic influence or devastation, The Maniakis army (Arbanites) , the Hunjiades army which we know settled in Albania after the battles
    people discussing Albania have gone through all the above alternatives but they do not have factual support they are simply theories, some even wild ones.

    The truth is that all modern Balcanic nationalities comes from a mix of an older, with a new one,
    agree

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U

    Ethnic group
    Hamitic Nation E-V13
    Country: Albania



    All Humanity is divided among 3 lineages as follows:

    1) Hamtics:
    would be Halopgroup DE O > Halopgrou
    D and Halopgroup E Halopgroup 0(Original Romans=E-V13, Latin Americans, Egyptians, Chinese, Ethiopians, Libyans, Morrocans, Palestinians...)

    2)Semites:
    IJ (S2) > J (M304) > J1 (M267) and J2 (M175) (Israelites, Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Iraquis, Chechens, Jordans...)

    3)Japhethics-Caucasians would be
    P (M45) > R (M207) > R1 (M173) > R1b (M343) > R1b1 (P25) > R1b1c (M269) (Rusians, Slavics, Celtics)
    P (M45) > Q (M45) (Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, Native Americans)

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    You were the one who mentioned about study upon Illyrian Y-DNA not me. Don't act goofy. I don't know the name of the study exactly since i didn't even take and read seriously.
    Well whats the point then, you make decisions without reading anything..............I already posted this once before on another thread, its from Anthropos congress written by Anita Sujoldzic and Marjeta Kos

    Just check my link on modern day albanians DNA 2008
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

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    I 'm lost among all these biblic references... Romans = Chineses? OK, no problem, I'm going to take some medical pills with a taste of fresh water...
    joke?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Well whats the point then, you make decisions without reading anything..............I already posted this once before on another thread, its from Anthropos congress written by Anita Sujoldzic and Marjeta Kos

    Just check my link on modern day albanians DNA 2008
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title
    No i didn't made decisions without reading since i have putted an eye to that pseudo-study. It is crazy to argue about the percentages of tribes of rather not well documented ancient peoples. You people give the impression as if they have tested the Illyrian skulls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    No i didn't made decisions without reading since i have putted an eye to that pseudo-study. It is crazy to argue about the percentages of tribes of rather not well documented ancient peoples. You people give the impression as if they have tested the Illyrian skulls.
    yes they tested some skulls as part of the skulls found in illyrian helemts ( not all helmets had skuills)

    http://ffri.academia.edu/martinablec...lyrian_helmets

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania.

    amazing what you are saying (writing) here!
    a lot of Slavs descendants among Tosks? I partially disagree -
    I2a1b-Din was not arrived there with Slavs only - there was a lot of bearers among Balkans populations before yet - Y-R1a is common among Slavs but some of them could be older in Balkans too (even some Hellenes could have hadsome variants of Y-R1a) - I do not know where your data are coming from, but Albanians as a whole do not show too much R1a (about 9%?) nor too much I2a1b (about 14%?) - the only very striking difference with Kossovars is about Y-E1b1 by far higher among Kosovars (about 25% to 43%?)... So I do not think that Slavs influence is very heavy in S-Albanians (it is confirmed apparently by phenotypes): I should put the % of 10% at most, not discarding history ; I think yet Kosovars are "purest", but alos for other causes: true Albanians was more "central" and they push on previous Epirus populations taking a foot on Adriatic seashores only recently enough - maybe have you some precise data about Tosks and Kosovars?
    albanians.png

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03...pulations.html

    Check here

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    yes they tested some skulls as part of the skulls found in illyrian helemts ( not all helmets had skuills)

    http://ffri.academia.edu/martinablec...lyrian_helmets
    I am done with you. You are not able to make a distinction between fiction and reality. I cannot believe i must debate basical nonsense.

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    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Tosc Albanians are much closer to Greeks in many respects. That makes sense if you consider that the population of Albania around 1600 is estimated to be around 200.000 inhabitants. The Greek colonisation in antiquity could have had an impact.

    Genetically Northern Greece has 21% of E. Central and South Greece have around 29 %. Tosk Albanians have 28 %, very similar to the Greeks. While Ghegh Albanians with 42% are in a league of their own. Also, central and northern Greece have around 4.5-6% of G, Tosc Albanians have 3.5% while Gheghs have only 1%. So Kosovars who, if we could argue that they have mixed less, have almost no G.

    Toscs have far higher frequencies of 'I' compared to both Greeks and Kosovars. Greeks in general have around 12%, Gheghs have 9%, while Toscs have almost 26%. Very similar to South Slavs. However, we should note the Northern Greeks have 22% of 'I' also.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2010/03/...pulations.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    it is not too precise for SNPs but I thank you - the %s about Y-E1b1 in Ghegs is very high as the one I first saw for Kosovars -other survey give only about 34% I think, but all the way, Ghegs and Kosovars show more Y-E1b than Tosks -
    have a good night ('if you're not sleeping yet!)

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