Kosovo Albanians Haplogroups?

[Beast]

Link me in which you refer,

Its odd that croatians, bosnians, montenegrians, albanians and serbians all want a piece of the illyrian DNA solely to justify their identity and lay claims to lands . But Illyrians did not see themselves as Illyrians, they all had different DNA, they all had different dynasties, they warred against each other and never aligned with each other in any major degree except Teuta in the south against the Romans and previuosly when 2 tribes united against Macedonia of Philip II and his son Alexander. The illyrians never laid claims beyond the Drin river as south of this was either epirote and later macedonian lands.

The naming of Illyria was firstly a greek name and later used by the Romans to indicate varoius tribes/people who had different cultures and languages in a geographical area named Illyria/Illyricum. Its like the Sarmatians where all different peoples and their huge lands had different races..........another is the Golden Horde and many many more

So what your trying to tell me is that Romans and Greeks called them Illyrians even though they were different people? No. The Illyrians were called Illyrians because they spoke the same language and culture. Even though they didn't have a civilized nation like the Greeks and Romans. of course they didn't call themselves
Illyrians this is a name from Greeks and Romans, but for some reason Liri means free in Albanian. Anybody know if this word is from Latin or Greek? And yes, they vaged war against eachother. There was an arguement that Albanians don't have war against eachother.. ummm Albanians have blood feuds against eachother more than any other Balkan nation, statistics from the 90's shows 3000 people died a year due to Blood feuds between Clans. And this is probably still the same but the murders are not recorded because nobody reports to the police. It's an eye for an eye, they take the law into their own hands, and if you must know the region of Tropoja in North Albania, bordering Kosovo.. is the most lawless place in the Balkans. Police have no control over that place, it's run by outlaws. illyria was like the wild wild west? well Albania is known for being europes wild wild west. Still this isn't any arguement at all.. And if Illyrians were sea people? So what? They couldn't all of been. they lived in a mountanious region, at some point in time when invadors came they must of moved to the mountains? Some Illyrian tribes are described by historians as mountanious people. Maybe this is where the Albanian language developed. also Marin Barleti accompanyon of Skanderbeg, a historian and priest from 16th century wrote in this book that Albanians were descendants of Epirotans and ancient-macedonians, he claimed Albanians at one point in time lived in Pelponnese and Macedonia but imigrated north. (Believe it or not but Alexander the great and Pyro of Epirus are national heroes in Albania. They named their currency after them from 1912. Lek which means Alexander. with his head on the currency but yet people are ignoring this all the time, you are ignoring what Medieval Albanians wrote. Albanians didn't make this up, Albanians aren't claiming these things just for national pride but these claims date back 600-700 years ago and interesting enough neither greece, or Bulgarians or whatever fyroms are claimed this ancestry at that time it was only medieval Albanians that did this it was not until after independence from Ottoman empire that FYROMS and Greeks started claiming these people and groups. ) Show me a source of Greeks or Bulgarians during Byzantium empire claim ancient macedonians and Epirots? Alexander and Pyrro? These group of people were only celebrated by medieval Albanians ... but still this is nothing, so many unsolved questions.. the thing is we don't know the truth. anything could of happened in the Balkans. who knows maye Albanians don't have one single ancestor? But I think the problem that we are facing in this mystery to find out the truth, the biggest problem is the arrival of the Slavs, history records this.. I don't know if illyrians mixed with them or what happened, but I think some Illyrians escaped to the mountains, but if the Slavs hadn't come there I think this wouldn't of been such a mystery to find out who is descendant from what group, but now we got so many countries like Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Croatia, Albania etc and we don't know for sure.

And by some historians Dardania isn't even included in Illyria. Seems like Dardanians had their own state and were more civilized. But they were Thraco-Illyrian. So if you mean claiming Kosovo as a land. I don't think south slavs are descendants of Dardanians. If they are Illyrians then why do they speak Slavic? Did Illyrians accept Slavic language but didn't mix with Slavs? No. I don't think so. Because where else did the Slavs go? The Slavs didn't just leave their language in the Balkans and move. history records itself that they settled exactly where today Croatia and Serbia is. Illyrians spoke the same language, that we know for sure, it was closely related to Thracian, some say in Dardania the language became a blend of Thracian and Illyrian. I think during the arrival of the Slavs Illyrians settled for the mountains. And like 80% of Albania is mountains. So how could Illyrians not of been mountanious people? You can't live there without being a highlander unless you live on the sea.

And Dacian is also included with close connection to Illyrians and Thracians. Dacian-Thracian, Thraco-Illyrian-Dacian.

Another theory by a professor is that the ancestors of Albanians lived in central europe.

And Illyrians, Greeks, Epirots, Thracians, ancient-macedonians etc. mixed and intermarried eachother all the time. I think this is enough to explain the close genetic similarities between Albanians and Greeks.

The I2a in greeks and Albanians comes from mixing with South-Slavs. Intermarriages that have been done through time. The Malesors have intermarried Montenigrins through time. Maybe this is why I2a is high in there. The E in Serbs also comes from Albanians that have been Serbianized and these things have actually happened. Albanians that became Serbs and vice versa. Also we are forgetting the Ottoman empire where not only Turks were generals and Pashas but also Albanians, Bosnians, Serbs, Greeks etc. and haplogroups might of spread through this way too.

Why is E so low in Croatians? Maybe because they never had any real contact with Albanians and Greeks?

And I agree with the other post. haplogroups might of come at different times from different areas. But is it a coincidence that celts seem to of been R1b and they were in the Balkans and R1b is also found there in high amounts. is it a coincidence?

So with that logic the I2a in Albanians and Greeks might not come from south slavs, but it's found in high amounts in south slavs, so why not assume it came from them?

 

[Beast]

As for I2a in South-Slavs, I don't think it's from Illyrian or Thracian. I actually think it came from Sarmatians and Scythians. My theory is that the Scythians and Sarmatians migrated from the Caucasus to Ukraine and to Central Europe. There is a Sarmatian tribe that was called Serboi. They were Iranic speaking.

I can't post links.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi


I think Croatians and Serbs have the same ancestor. Some Croats still trace their roots from Iranic.

The Serboi settled in todays Poland in a place and this place became known as white Serbia or white Croatia. meaning West. i.e West-Serbia. because they lived in West Poland.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/white_serbia

They became slavicized in culture and language. intermarriages were done. hence why r1a is found too. i think slavs were originally r1a carriers.

Then they migrated to the Balkans.

I think there was also a Scythian or Sarmatian tribe called Hrvati.

There is still a group of people in Poland that are Known as Sorbs.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

(paste that in)

Could there be done any genetic test on these or has there been done?

Also I2a seems to be high in east Ukraine and east Romania (close to the black sea)

Sarmatians settled there too.

 

[zanipolo]

So what your trying to tell me is that Romans and Greeks called them Illyrians even though they were different people? No. The Illyrians were called Illyrians because they spoke the same language and culture. Even though they didn't have a civilized nation like the Greeks and Romans. of course they didn't call themselves
Illyrians this is a name from Greeks and Romans, but for some reason Liri means free in Albanian. Anybody know if this word is from Latin or Greek? And yes, they vaged war against eachother. There was an arguement that Albanians don't have war against eachother.. ummm Albanians have blood feuds against eachother more than any other Balkan nation, statistics from the 90's shows 3000 people died a year due to Blood feuds between Clans. And this is probably still the same but the murders are not recorded because nobody reports to the police. It's an eye for an eye, they take the law into their own hands, and if you must know the region of Tropoja in North Albania, bordering Kosovo.. is the most lawless place in the Balkans. Police have no control over that place, it's run by outlaws. illyria was like the wild wild west? well Albania is known for being europes wild wild west. Still this isn't any arguement at all.. And if Illyrians were sea people? So what? They couldn't all of been. they lived in a mountanious region, at some point in time when invadors came they must of moved to the mountains? Some Illyrian tribes are described by historians as mountanious people. Maybe this is where the Albanian language developed. also Marin Barleti accompanyon of Skanderbeg, a historian and priest from 16th century wrote in this book that Albanians were descendants of Epirotans and ancient-macedonians, he claimed Albanians at one point in time lived in Pelponnese and Macedonia but imigrated north. (Believe it or not but Alexander the great and Pyro of Epirus are national heroes in Albania. They named their currency after them from 1912. Lek which means Alexander. with his head on the currency but yet people are ignoring this all the time, you are ignoring what Medieval Albanians wrote. Albanians didn't make this up, Albanians aren't claiming these things just for national pride but these claims date back 600-700 years ago and interesting enough neither greece, or Bulgarians or whatever fyroms are claimed this ancestry at that time it was only medieval Albanians that did this it was not until after independence from Ottoman empire that FYROMS and Greeks started claiming these people and groups. ) Show me a source of Greeks or Bulgarians during Byzantium empire claim ancient macedonians and Epirots? Alexander and Pyrro? These group of people were only celebrated by medieval Albanians ... but still this is nothing, so many unsolved questions.. the thing is we don't know the truth. anything could of happened in the Balkans. who knows maye Albanians don't have one single ancestor? But I think the problem that we are facing in this mystery to find out the truth, the biggest problem is the arrival of the Slavs, history records this.. I don't know if illyrians mixed with them or what happened, but I think some Illyrians escaped to the mountains, but if the Slavs hadn't come there I think this wouldn't of been such a mystery to find out who is descendant from what group, but now we got so many countries like Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Croatia, Albania etc and we don't know for sure.

And by some historians Dardania isn't even included in Illyria. Seems like Dardanians had their own state and were more civilized. But they were Thraco-Illyrian. So if you mean claiming Kosovo as a land. I don't think south slavs are descendants of Dardanians. If they are Illyrians then why do they speak Slavic? Did Illyrians accept Slavic language but didn't mix with Slavs? No. I don't think so. Because where else did the Slavs go? The Slavs didn't just leave their language in the Balkans and move. history records itself that they settled exactly where today Croatia and Serbia is. Illyrians spoke the same language, that we know for sure, it was closely related to Thracian, some say in Dardania the language became a blend of Thracian and Illyrian. I think during the arrival of the Slavs Illyrians settled for the mountains. And like 80% of Albania is mountains. So how could Illyrians not of been mountanious people? You can't live there without being a highlander unless you live on the sea.

And Dacian is also included with close connection to Illyrians and Thracians. Dacian-Thracian, Thraco-Illyrian-Dacian.

Another theory by a professor is that the ancestors of Albanians lived in central europe.

And Illyrians, Greeks, Epirots, Thracians, ancient-macedonians etc. mixed and intermarried eachother all the time. I think this is enough to explain the close genetic similarities between Albanians and Greeks.

The I2a in greeks and Albanians comes from mixing with South-Slavs. Intermarriages that have been done through time. The Malesors have intermarried Montenigrins through time. Maybe this is why I2a is high in there. The E in Serbs also comes from Albanians that have been Serbianized and these things have actually happened. Albanians that became Serbs and vice versa. Also we are forgetting the Ottoman empire where not only Turks were generals and Pashas but also Albanians, Bosnians, Serbs, Greeks etc. and haplogroups might of spread through this way too.

Why is E so low in Croatians? Maybe because they never had any real contact with Albanians and Greeks?

And I agree with the other post. haplogroups might of come at different times from different areas. But is it a coincidence that celts seem to of been R1b and they were in the Balkans and R1b is also found there in high amounts. is it a coincidence?

So with that logic the I2a in Albanians and Greeks might not come from south slavs, but it's found in high amounts in south slavs, so why not assume it came from them?

I don't want to revisit this again but the Hungarian Alfoldy ,English Wilkins and others all state the same 5 power tribes of the Illyrians as the Romans did
Illyria identified as five principal onomastic provinces within the Illyrian area:
1) the "real" Illyrians Autariates, south of the river Neretva in Dalmatia and extending south to Drin river besides Epirus
2) the Dalmatians, who occupied the middle Adriatic coast between the Autariates to the south and the Liburnians to the north
3) the Liburnians, a branch of Venetic in the northeast coastal Adriatic area
4) the Iapodes, who live north of the Dalmatians and inland of the coastal Liburnians
5) the Pannonians in the northern lands

These are the same as what the Romans called them, of course there are minor tribes inside each of these.

The reason there is no E in northern Illyricum is because they are different people, different languages, different customs, as an example, the Liburni had only queens as rulers and tatooed their necks, no others did this.

you can tell form this link, chart 2, that certain haplogroups change as you move north south east and west
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/fig_tab/ejhg2008249f2.html#figure-title

 

[Beast]

Also, looking at it again, the R1b in Albanians might not of come from Proto-Celts but rather from the Roman empire. We are forgetting the Roman Empire.

Come to think of it the R1b in Britain might also be from Romans.

But of course these might be different subclades or how it's called.. excuse me for my english.

Somehow the Albanians were Catholics and South Albanians Greek Orthodox, some still are. meaning they must of been around during Roman empire.. they couldn't of migrated there after, or else it would of been historically recorded.

 

[zanipolo]

As for I2a in South-Slavs, I don't think it's from Illyrian or Thracian. I actually think it came from Sarmatians and Scythians. My theory is that the Scythians and Sarmatians migrated from the Caucasus to Ukraine and to Central Europe. There is a Sarmatian tribe that was called Serboi. They were Iranic speaking.

I can't post links.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi


I think Croatians and Serbs have the same ancestor. Some Croats still trace their roots from Iranic.

The Serboi settled in todays Poland in a place and this place became known as white Serbia or white Croatia. meaning West. i.e West-Serbia. because they lived in West Poland.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/white_serbia

They became slavicized in culture and language. intermarriages were done. hence why r1a is found too. i think slavs were originally r1a carriers.

Then they migrated to the Balkans.

I think there was also a Scythian or Sarmatian tribe called Hrvati.

There is still a group of people in Poland that are Known as Sorbs.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

(paste that in)

Could there be done any genetic test on these or has there been done?

Also I2a seems to be high in east Ukraine and east Romania (close to the black sea)

Sarmatians settled there too.

Sarmatians, Alans would have arrived as part of the Ostrogoths , who resided on the northern parts of the black sea for 200 years,( from 200CE to 400CE or thereabouts) then they invaded the balkans and Italy and stayed there for 200 years

 

[Beast]

look at my other post where I explained to the I2a. This theory is supported by researchers that I2a came from Sarmatians that were slavicized from Central Europe. Called Serboi. You don't find it interesting? They called their place White-Serbia and White Croatia. But interesting enough nobody is picking up on this.

As for the Illyrians. They spoke the same language and had the same culture, they were different tribes yes, but they were seen by outsiders as the same people this is why they were called Illyrians. I really don't understand your point. You are also forgetting Dardanians were Illyrians. but mixed also with Thracians.

Thraco-illyrian became one language...

Illyrians didn't speak different languages, they spoke the same... you don't call a people the same name if they are different in culture and language. if they spoke different language how did they communicate when they reunited against macedonians and other neighbors?

Yes, they were different tribes. they didn't consider themselves Illyrians.

But the name Illyrian was originally a tribe from todays albania that came in contact with Greeks but then Greeks started using this Illyrian name for all the people around there that spoke the same language.

And interesting enough allot of the findings of Illyrian writings etc. have been found in greek

 

[Beast]

So the name Illirian was actually a word in ''Illyrian'' .. interesting enough liri means free in Albanian.. so this tribe called Ilirian might of called themselves free, or land of the free... so the greeks picked this word up from the tribe and started calling all the tribes around this region that spoke the same language for 'Ilirians' even though they were tribes with their own names.

 

[Beast]

What I'm saying is the Serboi tribe from Sarmatia settled in West-Poland, they called this place white-Serbia (White: West so West Serbia) they became slavicized in culture, they stayed there assimilated, and then the Slavs moved to the Balkans.

 

[Beast]

Also, I am Albanian from Kosovo. to be exact from the Drenica valley. This region has a history of resistance against Ottoman Turks and Serbs. And I wonder what result I would get if I did a genetic test. According to the map of Dardania in ancient times, the Drenica valley was located in the middle of ancient Dardania, today it's in north-kosovo.

Also, I don't care if Albanians are Illyrians or not. I'm not claiming to be one.. I'm here because I find it interesting. I'm not here to argue or spread nationalism. But I find this very interesting.

Balkan history is a mysterium.

 

[Beast]

I know this is about Kosovar Albanians but here is some interesting stuff I found about South-Slavs, I remember even some member here talking about this that South-Slavs originally might of originated from the border north italy, and close. around czechia.. Maybe this deserves it's own thread.


Facts that support this theory are, the sharing of the linguistical grammar structure between the West Slav (Czech, Slovak, Polish) and the South Slav (Serb and Croat) language, that differs from the grammar structure of the Bulgarian language that also belongs to the South Slavic group, the toponyms found in the region, north Bohemia (Srbsko, Srbská Kamenice etc. as well as the toponyms containing the ethnonym Chorvat, in the adjacent regions). Lusatian Slavic population still bearing the name Serbs in their native language. The region of Bohemia was known as the region of the Boii to the Romans, as well as the Byzantines, after the Celtic Boii tribe settling the region before Slavs. Byzantines often described people by the region (Tribalians, Thracians, Illyrians) they inhabited, eventhough the eponymous tribes were long extinct, rather than by the native names of the tribes they were carrying. The region called Boiheim by the western Rome (German suffix -heim) and Boika by the eastern Rome (Slavic suffix -ka) relates to the current region of Bohemiaand corresponds to the ancestral region of White Serbia (stated as Boika in the De Administrando Imperio, chapter 32).

"The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking a moiety of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination."... ..."Now, after some time these same Serbs decided to depart to their own homes, and the emperor sent them off. But when they had crossed the river Danube, they changed their minds and sent a request to the emperor Heraclius, through the military governor then governing Belgrade, that he would grant them other land to settle in."... ..."And since what is now Rascia (Serbia) and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumi and Trebounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for they had expelled from those parts the Romans who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries, and they were subject to the emperor of the Romans; and the emperor brought elders from Rome and baptized them and taught them fairly to perform the works of piety and expounded to them the faith of the Christians."... ..."And since Bulgaria was beneath the dominion of the Romans * * * when, therefore, that same Serbian prince died who had claimed the emperor's protection, his son ruled in succession, and thereafter his grandson, and in like manner the succeeding princes from his family"...

-De Administrando Imperio chapter 32, Constantine VII[7]

According to the historical and archeological data present at time, Serbs and Sorbs (South and North Serbs), were around 1400 years ago the same Polabian Slavic tribe. At the beginning of the 7th century it came to a split in between the tribe, the northern Serbs that stayed (now known as Lusatian Sorbs or Wends) were largely assimilated by the greater Slavic tribes (Poles, Czechs) as well as non-Slavic nations (Germans) immensely influencing their language and culture by the Polish and the German one. The southern Serbs on the other hand, conquered and assimilated lesser Slavic tribes, as well as the romanised Illyrian and Thracian population^[9] of the Roman empire in Southeastern Europe, into their own Slavic tribe, thus laying the foundation for the medieval Serbian state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

turkey in the text I think it means magyars from hungary, as it says.

 

[Yetos]

I don't want to revisit this again but the Hungarian Alfoldy ,English Wilkins and others all state the same 5 power tribes of the Illyrians as the Romans did
Illyria identified as five principal onomastic provinces within the Illyrian area:
1) the "real" Illyrians Autariates, south of the river Neretva in Dalmatia and extending south to Drin river besides Epirus
2) the Dalmatians, who occupied the middle Adriatic coast between the Autariates to the south and the Liburnians to the north
3) the Liburnians, a branch of Venetic in the northeast coastal Adriatic area
4) the Iapodes, who live north of the Dalmatians and inland of the coastal Liburnians
5) the Pannonians in the northern lands

These are the same as what the Romans called them, of course there are minor tribes inside each of these.

The reason there is no E in northern Illyricum is because they are different people, different languages, different customs, as an example, the Liburni had only queens as rulers and tatooed their necks, no others did this.

you can tell form this link, chart 2, that certain haplogroups change as you move north south east and west
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/fig_tab/ejhg2008249f2.html#figure-title

that is correct.
these are the Illiricum tribes and only the first first Autariates are connected with what Greeks call Illyrians, and surely with today Albanian population.

 

[Yetos]

look at my other post where I explained to the I2a. This theory is supported by researchers that I2a came from Sarmatians that were slavicized from Central Europe. Called Serboi. You don't find it interesting? They called their place White-Serbia and White Croatia. But interesting enough nobody is picking up on this.

As for the Illyrians. They spoke the same language and had the same culture, they were different tribes yes, but they were seen by outsiders as the same people this is why they were called Illyrians. I really don't understand your point. You are also forgetting Dardanians were Illyrians. but mixed also with Thracians.

Thraco-illyrian became one language...

Illyrians didn't speak different languages, they spoke the same... you don't call a people the same name if they are different in culture and language. if they spoke different language how did they communicate when they reunited against macedonians and other neighbors?

Yes, they were different tribes. they didn't consider themselves Illyrians.

But the name Illyrian was originally a tribe from todays albania that came in contact with Greeks but then Greeks started using this Illyrian name for all the people around there that spoke the same language.

And interesting enough allot of the findings of Illyrian writings etc. have been found in greek

the case of I2a in Dalmatian ALps is written in a special post, it seems central EUropean subclade origin, you can read the posts in the forum, they almost say the same you describe.

Correct, Ancient Illyrians had the same curse of Thracians and Greeks, Thracian in Greek means broken, divided,
the historical data give same for Illyrians major division in Dardanians and Illyro thracian culture didvided in major 2 tribes, and Illyria proprie divided to 4-6 tribes like Taulanti Autariates etc

The different languages is not among Ilyrian tribes but among Illyricum tribes,
Iapodes Liburnians are not Illyrians to ancient Greeks, the are named as Illyrians from Roman Illyricum
Pannonians Dalmatians might be relative to the one component that synthesize Illyrians, the one I called Celtic, which surely is Central European, that component with the Pelasgian is the basic components of Illyrian (Albanian population) nations.

hmmm Do toy suggest that Illyria is an exonyme? Historical facts show that used the name of Illyros so it could be an esonyme,

Until second century in Illyria there was the tomp of Illyrus, I beleive that Illyrians would be proud to Have it and use the name, that was until Christianity times, In christianity times except the destruction of ancient Greek monuments we also have destruction of Thracian and Illyrian monuments,
All people in East Roman empire were named Romans and only Christianity was allowed,
it is even possible that some Illyrians to be accused for paganism.

so for me Illyri is an esonyme, an endonyme meaning the sons of Illyros,
consider that same philosophy we find in Danaoi (sons of Danae) Makednoi (sons of Makedon) etc


So the population of Albania and Kossovo at a big % seems to be the old Illyrian, the main problem is the Language,
Albanian language show elements of all neighborhood and not IE Pelasgian, but follows aspirrations of Northern languages, like Germanic Slavic Baltic, that is making it a more North-East language than the area of today Albania,
The only Northern population that is known in Albania is the Goranjie but they do not seem to enter these aspirations,
Goranjie population does not seem to give these aspirations to Albanian language
The only Historical data that can explain this phenomenon is the Getan colonists, especially in Dardania as also Germidava and others in Albania
a possible Visigothic or ostrogothic influence or devastation
The Maniakis army (Arbanites)
the Hunjiades army which we know settled in Albania after the battles

The truth is that all modern Balcanic nationalities comes from a mix of an older, with a new one,

for example in some areas in Makedonia still call Slavic Makedonians and Serbs as Triballi,
we all say Bulgaria but it is a mix of Thracian Greeks Slavic and Turkic (Bulgars) population
Greece a mix of ancient Greeks Romans but also includes Slavic Bulgaric Moesian and Arbanitan population
Consider Turkey, how many older populations exists there.
yet today majority speaks Turkish and accept Islam as religion,

 

[MOESAN]

Also, looking at it again, the R1b in Albanians might not of come from Proto-Celts but rather from the Roman empire. We are forgetting the Roman Empire.

Come to think of it the R1b in Britain might also be from Romans.

But of course these might be different subclades or how it's called.. excuse me for my english.

Somehow the Albanians were Catholics and South Albanians Greek Orthodox, some still are. meaning they must of been around during Roman empire.. they couldn't of migrated there after, or else it would of been historically recorded.

I repeat, for I know Y-R1b in Balkans (except in some parts of Croatia) is of very different subclades compared to the celtic countries ones
Y-DNA of Roman soldiers and some marchants is surely very light among present day celtic countries of Brittain,even if not unsignificant -
North-West Balkans population share HG's and other genes with South Balkans or N-E Balkans, but in very different proportions - so I see there some mixings but some different origins at the same time
for linguists it seams that now populations from North Illyria WAS closer to venetic tribes than to true illyrian or thracian-illyrian ones -
albanian would seam send there by a previously more eastern population (some phonetic links with Dacians or Getians) according to specialists, yet related even if not too closely, to thracian - I suppose that the Tosques are more autochtonous than the Geghs (+ Kossovars) and less "albanian" by the fact: Epirots??? links with Macedonians???

 

[Malsori]

Link me in which you refer,

Its odd that croatians, bosnians, montenegrians, albanians and serbians all want a piece of the illyrian DNA solely to justify their identity and lay claims to lands . But Illyrians did not see themselves as Illyrians, they all had different DNA, they all had different dynasties, they warred against each other and never aligned with each other in any major degree except Teuta in the south against the Romans and previuosly when 2 tribes united against Macedonia of Philip II and his son Alexander. The illyrians never laid claims beyond the Drin river as south of this was either epirote and later macedonian lands.

The naming of Illyria was firstly a greek name and later used by the Romans to indicate varoius tribes/people who had different cultures and languages in a geographical area named Illyria/Illyricum. Its like the Sarmatians where all different peoples and their huge lands had different races..........another is the Golden Horde and many many more

I ask you to link your study and you came out with the same ad-nauseum fact. Linking Albanians with Illyrians have no real land pretensions. It is just as it is. Albanians have preserved their language and the preservance of language means better preservance of genes too.

I suppose that the Tosques are more autochtonous than the Geghs (+ Kossovars) and less "albanian" by the fact: Epirots??? links with Macedonians???

Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania.

 

[zanipolo]

I ask you to link your study and you came out with the same ad-nauseum fact. Linking Albanians with Illyrians have no real land pretensions. It is just as it is. Albanians have preserved their language and the preservance of language means better preservance of genes too.

As per post 20 , link me who you referred too as ......... Because the usual thing that happens is anything the placed is ridiculed by nationalistic sentiment

 

[zanipolo]

There is no data on Illyrian DNA. Enlighten me and post that data but before you do that don't link that Croatian pseudo-study pdf crap please.


What you have done here with your points taken here is making a fool out of yourself.

link it , I want to read this crap

 

[neonimrod]

I find interesting that although Shem or Sem for Semite is fictional supposedly as Ham or the Hamitics, they still chose to use the term Semitics?

Science, Religion and even Mythology have always been manipulated by certain groups, and on science on the Genetic side they claim the E-V13 as farmers, what a doubious claim, then the Bible explicitly talks about Cush and Nimrod, yet He is trying to be discredited by the Semites and the Japhetics
and Mythology even Saturn is clearly Nimrod, they picture him totally as anything but an E-v13

the whole world is divided in the following way:
Either you are
1) Hamitic (Halopgroups D or E or O among others)
2)Semitic (Halopgroups I or J)
3)Caucasian-aryan-Japhethic (R or P or Q or G Halopgroups)

yet over and over we see the last two groups falsely claim the the Hamitic achievements as follows:

The Semites falsely claim as Semites the following:
Albert Einstein He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Shalom Ben Amram Samaritan High Priest He is an E-M35 a Hamitic

Japhethics or Caucasians Falsely Claim as Caucasians the Following:
The Wright Brothers they are E-M35 Hamitics
Hittler He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Pope Paul V He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Caravaggio He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
So see guys E-M35 comes in White Brown Yellow Black
And it can be found in:
Europe Latin America North America the Middle East Asia and Africa

 

[Malsori]

link it , I want to read this crap

You were the one who mentioned about study upon Illyrian Y-DNA not me. Don't act goofy. I don't know the name of the study exactly since i didn't even take and read seriously.

2007 data on illyrian dna has nothing for kosovo and on albania it gets only 27% ( E3b1-M178 ...renamed now to something else ) and 14.30% ( J2-M172) of illyrian from the Taulantii tribe of illyrians. The kosovo where , if they existed there in the ancient times , the dardanians .

but there is speculation that the Taulanti where Epirotes and not illyrian ...........this is still being discussed

^ Here is what you exactly said in your post. I just know there is a Croatian pseudo-scientific paper about Y-DNA distribution among Illyrian tribes. So your assumption comes from that i guess if not link the 2007 datas upon Illyrians.

 

[MOESAN]

Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania.

amazing what you are saying (writing) here!
a lot of Slavs descendants among Tosks? I partially disagree -
I2a1b-Din was not arrived there with Slavs only - there was a lot of bearers among Balkans populations before yet - Y-R1a is common among Slavs but some of them could be older in Balkans too (even some Hellenes could have hadsome variants of Y-R1a) - I do not know where your data are coming from, but Albanians as a whole do not show too much R1a (about 9%?) nor too much I2a1b (about 14%?) - the only very striking difference with Kossovars is about Y-E1b1 by far higher among Kosovars (about 25% to 43%?)... So I do not think that Slavs influence is very heavy in S-Albanians (it is confirmed apparently by phenotypes): I should put the % of 10% at most, not discarding history ; I think yet Kosovars are "purest", but alos for other causes: true Albanians was more "central" and they push on previous Epirus populations taking a foot on Adriatic seashores only recently enough - maybe have you some precise data about Tosks and Kosovars?

 

[kesi]

Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania.

can you say what are these sources, I would like to know where these slavic settlements were in south of Albania