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Thread: Kosovo Albanians Haplogroups?

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    Something is really wrong with that study. Jevg and Gabel are just two names used for Gypsies. I don't understand that "all" in the end. All Albanians 12.78% H1? How did they count them? Did they considered 25% of the population Gheg, 25% Tosk, 25% Jevg and 25% Gabel to reach those conclusions? Gypsies are not 50% of the Albanian population. Gypsies are not 50% of any population in Europe. Also the Gheg-Tosk speakers are not equal in number either either. I would say there are more Ghegs (considering Ghegs reside in Kosovo, Northern and Central Albania<not counting Tirana which is a mixed bag, however the families that have been in Tirana before 1921 (when it was made the capital) preserve the two Gheg features: r-to-n and a-to-o shift> while Tosks in South with some minorities in Greece and Italy; division line is Shkumbin river) but I can't find official statistics, so I'm just gonna have to accept those results.

    Those are my main concerns, but I don't see a problem with the results ignoring the "all" part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    it is not too precise for SNPs but I thank you - the %s about Y-E1b1 in Ghegs is very high as the one I first saw for Kosovars -other survey give only about 34% I think, but all the way, Ghegs and Kosovars show more Y-E1b than Tosks -
    have a good night ('if you're not sleeping yet!)
    With that map i wanted to point out the fact that Tosks have an Higher presence of Slavic HG compared to Ghegs.
    I is clearly on majority I2a1b, R1a should be higher in South Albania and R1b the reverse.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It all makes sense if one considers the mountains of northern albanian to be the source of E V-13 in the balkans
    Even the illyrian "invaders" with their R1b might not have been able to fully control some of those mountain areas.
    These mountaineous people have even saturated the slavic serbs with some 20% V-13, if I am not mistaken.
    This makes ghegs closer to the indigenous pre indo-european pelasgians, and tosks a more indo-european mix.
    Greeks of today have some J2a cretan influences that albanians dont have. And then there is that mysterious
    15% J2b2 that both gheg and tosk have in common, which greeks dont have. So there are multiple dimensions to
    consider and it is hard to tell who the tosks are closer to. But this is a quite commons situation with a lot of
    european populations.
    Last edited by kamani; 28-11-12 at 14:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    It all makes sense if one considers the mountains of northern albanian to be the source of E V-13 in the balkans
    Even the illyrian "invaders" with their R1b might not have been able to fully control some of those mountain areas.
    These mountaineous people have even saturated the slavic serbs with some 20% V-13, if I am not mistaken.
    This makes ghegs closer to the indigenous non indo-european pelasgians, and tosks a more indo-european mix.
    Greeks of today have some J2a cretan influences that albanians dont have. And then there is that mysterious
    15% J2b2 that both gheg and tosk have in common, which greeks dont have. So there are multiple dimensions to
    consider and it is hard to tell who the tosks are closer to. But this is a quite commons situation with a lot of
    european populations.
    that is the problem, you can not combine Pelasgians (sea people) with an epipaleolithic remnant in a mountain area, Pelasgians were intruders in Balkans, not paleolithic or neolithic habitants,

    Pelasgians enter after IE and before troyan war,
    in Ilias homers names them as Ethiopeans Αιθιωψ.
    that means that until Troyan war they were in kind of seperation with IE,

    all data, all genetic results fits with Cruciani and al, and the history of Kadmos father of Illyros.

    there is no Neolithic evidence of E HG people except Spain in the rest of Europe,

    but there is the Cyprus and the Konya that fits with all written histories and Myths, and all genetical scientific conclusions.

    better find who were the Pelasgians, from where they came and where they went, and left behind them,

    J2 is older than E in Balkans,
    maybe older than any IE R1 that is why we find the Aryan elements in Greek and Thracian languages,
    and that is that creates the question of IE as a Neolithic agriculture language or as steppe Bronze age language,

    to understand that search Varna Necropolis,
    gold mettalurgy and burial rituals exist in Balkans still today,
    and they are much before bronze IE, meaning that Masks of Thracians and Myceneans was not a teppe culture but a Balkanic one,
    the body position in intermediate kingdom follows that also, meaning that Varna affected even Egypt,
    all Kurgans are much later than Varna, so we see that Balkans learn Kurgan people to use gold in burial rituals,
    considering that the oldest Kurgan is in Syria but archaiologists found it much after then might speak about a J2 population that existed in Neolithic Balkans

    E in Balkans can not be neolithic for 2 reasons,
    1) if is Neolithic in Spain then it should found in France Italy swiss Slovenia Austria Croatia etc.
    but it is not, on the other hand it is found in minor Asia and Greece which surely is tied with Crucciani estimation,

    2) early Neolithic people were G2, isolation of Swiis mountains surely helped G2 to survive the later incoming tribes, if E came from spain why did not create a pocket in Alps? or in North Italy? or in Dinaric Alps or in Tatra and Transylvania?
    (the map you show us is definetly clear that E from spain has nothing to do with Balkanic E, instead the existance in Portugal shows a Levantine connection (Phoenician colonise Portugal in antigue time)

    3) the mother land of an Hg is the land that has the more diversities,
    How many diversities have Albanian E considering with other Blaknic E and with Levant where probably had a founder effect?
    When and where that founder effect happened?
    Hg do not follow hydraulic laws neither political desires.


    4) Both Armenian Hypothseis (Thracians) and Greco-Aryan can be explained with an Anatolian connection of IE and J2 populations as also with R1b (M21 if I remeber correct)
    but they can also be explained if we consider Balkans as homelend of R1,
    the diversities of R1a in Balkans are indeed many, but until today that is consider to happened as a sink phenomena and not as motherland ( I heard it from Macciamo),
    although the case of Sesklo Varna Vinca shows a connection ( The case of pommerania is still a question if being connected with Vinca or with IE)

    the key is the Varna Necropolis, which I bet had I1 and J2 population and misses R1b R1a
    or has R1b and R1a and misses J2, but surely misses E
    the problem is that 6700 years old radiocarbon estimation does give very reliable results.

    but we see that burial customs with Gold, with hands croossed and the weapons-scepters was not an egyptian custom neither a steppe one but a Balcanic one,
    that burial chamber tumulus-kurgan was an anatolian-Near-middle-East custom,



    a good question for you,

    if E Y-DNA in Albania is neolithic? and they vanquish in thin air from spain to kossovo? what about their female population? the mtDNA that mate with them?

    IE as we know took the women from the locals,
    but mtDNA that can could coperate with E is found in an arc from Spain to Lapland scan, almost misses rest Europe and the in Balkans,
    I wonder how come Neolithic population get married? so Neolithic E Hg of Kossovo people storage their women where?
    why you don't search and that?
    if E hg in kossovo was neolithic then it should have also the mtDNA that fits with it? at least in perfect % analogy. does it?

    why should we consider kossovo an exception from the rule?
    I mean if in Europe bronze people took the women of local neolithic, then same should happened in kossovo, meaning that if kossovo E-V13 was neolithic the mt-DNA should also be from Africa or Levant but in bigger % cause some of the women were taken by IE R1a and R1b. meaning that in Kossovo we must have above 60% African or Levantine mt-DNA.
    Do we?

    plz answer that question?
    Last edited by Yetos; 28-11-12 at 15:09.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    that is the problem, you can not combine Pelasgians (sea people) with an epipaleolithic remnant in a mountain area, Pelasgians were intruders in Balkans, not paleolithic or neolithic habitants,

    Pelasgians enter after IE and before troyan war,
    in Ilias homers names them as Ethiopeans Αιθιωψ.
    that means that until Troyan war they were in kind of seperation with IE,

    all data, all genetic results fits with Cruciani and al, and the history of Kadmos father of Illyros.

    there is no Neolithic evidence of E HG people except Spain in the rest of Europe,

    but there is the Cyprus and the Konya that fits with all written histories and Myths, and all genetical scientific conclusions.

    better find who were the Pelasgians, from where they came and where they went, and left behind them,

    J2 is older than E in Balkans,
    maybe older than any IE R1 that is why we find the Aryan elements in Greek and Thracian languages,
    and that is that creates the question of IE as a Neolithic agriculture language or as steppe Bronze age language,

    to understand that search Varna Necropolis,
    gold mettalurgy and burial rituals exist in Balkans still today,
    and they are much before bronze IE, meaning that Masks of Thracians and Myceneans was not a teppe culture but a Balkanic one,
    the body position in intermediate kingdom follows that also, meaning that Varna affected even Egypt,
    all Kurgans are much later than Varna, so we see that Balkans learn Kurgan people to use gold in burial rituals,
    considering that the oldest Kurgan is in Syria but archaiologists found it much after then might speak about a J2 population that existed in Neolithic Balkans

    E in Balkans can not be neolithic for 2 reasons,
    1) if is Neolithic in Spain then it should found in France Italy swiss Slovenia Austria Croatia etc.
    but it is not, on the other hand it is found in minor Asia and Greece which surely is tied with Crucciani estimation,

    2) early Neolithic people were G2, isolation of Swiis mountains surely helped G2 to survive the later incoming tribes, if E came from spain why did not create a pocket in Alps? or in North Italy? or in Dinaric Alps or in Tatra and Transylvania?
    (the map you show us is definetly clear that E from spain has nothing to do with Balkanic E, instead the existance in Portugal shows a Levantine connection (Phoenician colonise Portugal in antigue time)

    3) the mother land of an Hg is the land that has the more diversities,
    How many diversities have Albanian E considering with other Blaknic E and with Levant where probably had a founder effect?
    When and where that founder effect happened?
    Hg do not follow hydraulic laws neither political desires.


    4) Both Armenian Hypothseis (Thracians) and Greco-Aryan can be explained with an Anatolian connection of IE and J2 populations as also with R1b (M21 if I remeber correct)
    but they can also be explained if we consider Balkans as homelend of R1,
    the diversities of R1a in Balkans are indeed many, but until today that is consider to happened as a sink phenomena and not as motherland ( I heard it from Macciamo),
    although the case of Sesklo Varna Vinca shows a connection ( The case of pommerania is still a question if being connected with Vinca or with IE)

    the key is the Varna Necropolis, which I bet had I1 and J2 population and misses R1b R1a
    or has R1b and R1a and misses J2, but surely misses E
    the problem is that 6700 years old radiocarbon estimation does give very reliable results.

    but we see that burial customs with Gold, with hands croossed and the weapons-scepters was not an egyptian custom neither a steppe one but a Balcanic one,
    that burial chamber tumulus-kurgan was an anatolian-Near-middle-East custom,



    a good question for you,

    if E Y-DNA in Albania is neolithic? and they vanquish in thin air from spain to kossovo? what about their female population? the mtDNA that mate with them?

    IE as we know took the women from the locals,
    but mtDNA that can could coperate with E is found in an arc from Spain to Lapland scan, almost misses rest Europe and the in Balkans,
    I wonder how come Neolithic population get married? so Neolithic E Hg of Kossovo people storage their women where?
    why you don't search and that?
    if E hg in kossovo was neolithic then it should have also the mtDNA that fits with it? at least in perfect % analogy. does it?

    why should we consider kossovo an exception from the rule?
    I mean if in Europe bronze people took the women of local neolithic, then same should happened in kossovo, meaning that if kossovo E-V13 was neolithic the mt-DNA should also be from Africa or Levant but in bigger % cause some of the women were taken by IE R1a and R1b. meaning that in Kossovo we must have above 60% African or Levantine mt-DNA.
    Do we?

    plz answer that question?
    To my knowledge they haven't found J2 or R1 which is older than V-13 in europe. Correct me with a source if I am wrong.

    You're right to doubt me calling V-13 people as pellasgian because pellasgian has been used as a general term for the people that were in greece before the ancient greeks. But V-13 seems to fit them better that any other hg, an older member of this forum (Maciamo) was of the same opinion in another thread.

    All that stuff about greek mythology is more fiction than fact. Can you bring beowulf tales to a Law Court?

    To my knowledge mt-DNA is pretty homogenous in this area even though y-DNA might vary, plus combining both to form conclusions is more complex than what you're saying.

    Why did V-13 vanquish from spain to kosovo? It hasn't really vanquished, it is still one of the most common hg-s in europe. If you're expecting a trail of human fossils accross europe from 10000 yrs ago with clear y-DNA on them, good luck with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    To my knowledge they haven't found J2 or R1 which is older than V-13 in europe. Correct me with a source if I am wrong.

    You're right to doubt me calling V-13 people as pellasgian because pellasgian has been used as a general term for the people that were in greece before the ancient greeks. But V-13 seems to fit them better that any other hg, an older member of this forum (Maciamo) was of the same opinion in another thread.

    All that stuff about greek mythology is more fiction than fact. Can you bring beowulf tales to a Law Court?

    To my knowledge mt-DNA is pretty homogenous in this area even though y-DNA might vary, plus combining both to form conclusions is more complex than what you're saying.

    Why did V-13 vanquish from spain to kosovo? It hasn't really vanquished, it is still one of the most common hg-s in europe. If you're expecting a trail of human fossils accross europe from 10000 yrs ago with clear y-DNA on them, good luck with that.
    well lets see,
    the greek mythology Gives explanation of Illyrians as mix of Kadmeians and Celts,
    Herodotus say that Kadmus brother of Egypt brother of Phoenix (E-V13 probably accadocypriot) entered in south Greece and moved to Illyria to stop the incoming Northerns (Celts -R1b?)
    so from the mix of Illyros we find Keltos but as son of Illyros, not in Gaulish land but in Pannoni Basin,
    meaning that North of Trballi Thracian existed Celtic population, and we see the connection with Illyrians which probably where a sub-clade of Celtinf speaking people (Not Gauls of Roman era)
    the other myth of Epidameians (today Duress) say about a Cyclop (one eye-Choros -eye of Ra) came from Sicily, Sikelia was full of Phoenician colonies and has also connection with sea peoples,

    now in homer we also see the existance of Αιθιωψ (ethiopean royal warrior) so we know that these people co-existed with IE in south perts of Balkans,
    Thebes city of Kadmos is estimated to build around 2000 Bc which fits the myth with Crucciani approach and Dienekes aproach,
    the difference among the myth is that Dienekes gives a slowly expand to North while the myth gives a fast,
    both myths are connecting a North Central European Celtic or para-Caltic (the ones named as Illyrians) with an African or levantine admixture,
    now if E of Kossovo is same with E of Greece or one is arcado-Cypriot and the other Sicilian I can not tell, but seems to me that both entered same time about.

    the thread of sea peoples gives some interesting opinions, as also the thread about Pelasgians,
    you can read it,
    Pelasgians seems to be connected with Palestine and Aegean before move to Italy,
    Thoukidides and the rest can help us identify them as the Thyrrenians (Lemnos stele) a west Akkadian, or Aegean phoenician culture, sure is that Falisti Pelasgi Philistines where the same people probably.

    now i am not passing a judge so I don't go to court, but when archaiology, Historians, Myths, Genetics, linguistic say the same. I don't need to go to a court,

    to your knowledge Greece has more apreciate mtDNA with E-v13 people than Kossovo.
    I am not posting anything about that, since you are an Albanian then you must know about that, cause Zeus10 partners said that Greek are gypsies from Sahara Desert due to some mtDNA evidences and Albanians are Arian race, pure and white Europeans, yet political and not scientific claims always booming bubbles. so ask them in which search that mt-DNA was found in Greece,

    ok you claim a Spanish population which is beside Africa (how long is Gibraltar?) to come to Kossovo having 46% of population while in its path we find none of its trails? not even a pocket in France in Italy Alps etc, and we have in nearby minor Asia and Greece and cyprus Levant Egypt Historical facts, bones, archaiology, linguistic, genetic.

    about R1 in Balkans don't ask me, some claim that entered much after Varna Necropolis and is connected with both Mycaneans and Thracians.
    so most possible is that R1a entered much after Varna culture and Vinca,
    except if homeland of R1a is Balkans (has enough diversity)

    to understand balkans you must watch the 4rth,
    choirokoitia Cyprus, Sesklo/dimini/ Vinca and Varna, Cyclades and IEans
    Balkan has almost zero mesolithic, but from an epipaleolithic pass sudenly to Neolithic (Sesklo archaiological)
    meaning that had 2 waves of agricultural neolithic people,
    probably G2 was the first wave and a second entered at about 5 000 BC,
    the most logical is to be J2-I1 population since R1b and R1a entered at 3000-3500 stoping Varna and Vinca cultures with arsenic Bronze,
    or R1 is local Balcanic- minor Asian that expand to steppe and destroy it shelf, in the last case J2 entered at iron age,
    but from the burial masks we seek for an hg that was in both Varna and then Thracian and Mycenean, that kept the tradition,
    guess which can these be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    well lets see,
    the greek mythology Gives explanation of Illyrians as mix of Kadmeians and Celts,
    Herodotus say that Kadmus brother of Egypt brother of Phoenix (E-V13 probably accadocypriot) entered in south Greece and moved to Illyria to stop the incoming Northerns (Celts -R1b?)
    so from the mix of Illyros we find Keltos but as son of Illyros, not in Gaulish land but in Pannoni Basin,
    meaning that North of Trballi Thracian existed Celtic population, and we see the connection with Illyrians which probably where a sub-clade of Celtinf speaking people (Not Gauls of Roman era)
    the other myth of Epidameians (today Duress) say about a Cyclop (one eye-Choros -eye of Ra) came from Sicily, Sikelia was full of Phoenician colonies and has also connection with sea peoples,

    now in homer we also see the existance of Αιθιωψ (ethiopean royal warrior) so we know that these people co-existed with IE in south perts of Balkans,
    Thebes city of Kadmos is estimated to build around 2000 Bc which fits the myth with Crucciani approach and Dienekes aproach,
    the difference among the myth is that Dienekes gives a slowly expand to North while the myth gives a fast,
    both myths are connecting a North Central European Celtic or para-Caltic (the ones named as Illyrians) with an African or levantine admixture,
    now if E of Kossovo is same with E of Greece or one is arcado-Cypriot and the other Sicilian I can not tell, but seems to me that both entered same time about.

    the thread of sea peoples gives some interesting opinions, as also the thread about Pelasgians,
    you can read it,
    Pelasgians seems to be connected with Palestine and Aegean before move to Italy,
    Thoukidides and the rest can help us identify them as the Thyrrenians (Lemnos stele) a west Akkadian, or Aegean phoenician culture, sure is that Falisti Pelasgi Philistines where the same people probably.

    now i am not passing a judge so I don't go to court, but when archaiology, Historians, Myths, Genetics, linguistic say the same. I don't need to go to a court,

    to your knowledge Greece has more apreciate mtDNA with E-v13 people than Kossovo.
    I am not posting anything about that, since you are an Albanian then you must know about that, cause Zeus10 partners said that Greek are gypsies from Sahara Desert due to some mtDNA evidences and Albanians are Arian race, pure and white Europeans, yet political and not scientific claims always booming bubbles. so ask them in which search that mt-DNA was found in Greece,

    ok you claim a Spanish population which is beside Africa (how long is Gibraltar?) to come to Kossovo having 46% of population while in its path we find none of its trails? not even a pocket in France in Italy Alps etc, and we have in nearby minor Asia and Greece and cyprus Levant Egypt Historical facts, bones, archaiology, linguistic, genetic.

    about R1 in Balkans don't ask me, some claim that entered much after Varna Necropolis and is connected with both Mycaneans and Thracians.
    so most possible is that R1a entered much after Varna culture and Vinca,
    except if homeland of R1a is Balkans (has enough diversity)

    to understand balkans you must watch the 4rth,
    choirokoitia Cyprus, Sesklo/dimini/ Vinca and Varna, Cyclades and IEans
    Balkan has almost zero mesolithic, but from an epipaleolithic pass sudenly to Neolithic (Sesklo archaiological)
    meaning that had 2 waves of agricultural neolithic people,
    probably G2 was the first wave and a second entered at about 5 000 BC,
    the most logical is to be J2-I1 population since R1b and R1a entered at 3000-3500 stoping Varna and Vinca cultures with arsenic Bronze,
    or R1 is local Balcanic- minor Asian that expand to steppe and destroy it shelf, in the last case J2 entered at iron age,
    but from the burial masks we seek for an hg that was in both Varna and then Thracian and Mycenean, that kept the tradition,
    guess which can these be.
    I guess I am not explaining myself fully. I am not saying V-13 came to kosovo from spain, I am saying the opposite, it went to spain from kosovo. Since the spanish one is proved to be from 7000 BC, that makes the one in kosovo even older, probably around 10000 BC, which is well into the stone-age.
    How did it get to kosovo? probably from the middle east through anatolia.
    why the fountain was kosovo and not somewhere else in the balkans? because thats what the map visually shows, the epicenter of v-13 seems to be kosovo. That kind of circular spread through multiple countries and languages did not happen overnight, it takes thosands of years.
    why v-13 has no mutations in kosovo? who is to say that it doesn't. There have been found only a handful of people in the world that have subclades of v-13. 99.9% of V-13 people are just v-13.
    where does J2 fit into all this? I dont know. If it makes you happy, I am willing to accept that it came around the same time with the first farmers.
    I do agree with you that Illyrians were a mix of v-13, R1b, and probably some I.
    And lets not get carried away too much with the colors here, V-13 was probably fair or olive-skin since even the big E was born around egypt. I am starting to imagine sub-saharan africans wearing greek battle armor and helmet, and singing rap tunes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I guess I am not explaining myself fully. I am not saying V-13 came to kosovo from spain, I am saying the opposite, it went to spain from kosovo. Since the spanish one is proved to be from 7000 BC, that makes the one in kosovo even older, probably around 10000 BC, which is well into the stone-age.
    How did it get to kosovo? probably from the middle east through anatolia.
    why the fountain was kosovo and not somewhere else in the balkans? because thats what the map visually shows, the epicenter of v-13 seems to be kosovo. That kind of circular spread through multiple countries and languages did not happen overnight, it takes thosands of years.
    why v-13 has no mutations in kosovo? who is to say that it doesn't. There have been found only a handful of people in the world that have subclades of v-13. 99.9% of V-13 people are just v-13.
    where does J2 fit into all this? I dont know. If it makes you happy, I am willing to accept that it came around the same time with the first farmers.
    I do agree with you that Illyrians were a mix of v-13, R1b, and probably some I.
    And lets not get carried away too much with the colors here, V-13 was probably fair or olive-skin since even the big E was born around egypt. I am starting to imagine sub-saharan africans wearing greek battle armor and helmet, and singing rap tunes.

    ok we have a total 12000 years v-13 in balkans that came from Africa to middle east to anatolia to kossovo, to go to Spain, while oposite of Spain in NW Africa, what a road?
    and we know that if someone bears 10 children and the other 2 then surely that creates a density of a Hg raising to high %, but what about the law of diversities, 12 000 and how many mutations we have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beast View Post
    So the name Illirian was actually a word in ''Illyrian'' .. interesting enough liri means free in Albanian.. so this tribe called Ilirian might of called themselves free, or land of the free... so the greeks picked this word up from the tribe and started calling all the tribes around this region that spoke the same language for 'Ilirians' even though they were tribes with their own names.
    Or... check this out: Illyrians is not ethnic term if you are reffering on roman province Illricum, why? Because Romans did not care how or how much land will they call by certain name into their province, so "Illyrians" as you call them, and I see many of you on this forum are making the same mistake with this term, were NOT HOMOGENUS people, just like today germans are not homogenus people, just look from today perspective the past in certain cases.

    One side of "Illyrians" those northern one (today Croatia, Bosnia) which were called by tribes: Dalmati, Liburni, Japodi etc, were all carriers of I2a2 haplogroup, later romanized by romans into roman citizens, and after fall of roman empire, they will be named by "Vlachs" from slavic settlers who will mixed with them on such high scale, that today croatian dominant haplogroup is I2a2 42%.

    Now, the southern Illyrians, means from today central Montenegro trough entire Epirus, were carriers of E1b1b haplogroup, from that ancient times, till today.

    And while many of you think that term "Illyrians" should apply on one genetic haplogroup, I cannot believe sometimes that so many of you cannot comprehend that "Illyrians" were not homogenus people, they didn't shared one genetic haplogroup.

    Jesus Christ... :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Cooper View Post
    Or... check this out: Illyrians is not ethnic term if you are reffering on roman province Illricum, why? Because Romans did not care how or how much land will they call by certain name into their province, so "Illyrians" as you call them, and I see many of you on this forum are making the same mistake with this term, were NOT HOMOGENUS people, just like today germans are not homogenus people, just look from today perspective the past in certain cases.

    One side of "Illyrians" those northern one (today Croatia, Bosnia) which were called by tribes: Dalmati, Liburni, Japodi etc, were all carriers of I2a2 haplogroup, later romanized by romans into roman citizens, and after fall of roman empire, they will be named by "Vlachs" from slavic settlers who will mixed with them on such high scale, that today croatian dominant haplogroup is I2a2 42%.

    Now, the southern Illyrians, means from today central Montenegro trough entire Epirus, were carriers of E1b1b haplogroup, from that ancient times, till today.

    And while many of you think that term "Illyrians" should apply on one genetic haplogroup, I cannot believe sometimes that so many of you cannot comprehend that "Illyrians" were not homogenus people, they didn't shared one genetic haplogroup.

    Jesus Christ... :)

    I have wrote about that,
    Pliny gives the difference among Illyria and Illyricum,
    a clear definition among Illyria proprie Dicti (Illyria) and the roman province of Illyricum,
    Roman always did that,
    they name Makedonia also Paionia and Sintica,
    Achaia the Dorian lands etc.

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    Hi! I am new on this forum.
    I did my test on iGENEA / FTDNA and the results got like this:
    Deep clade is still running, most likely to be L-23. Sub-groups "attached" to western europe are tested negative, which left these remaining:

    R1b1a2a* - L23
    R1b1a2a1* - L150
    R1b1a2a1a* - L51
    R1b1a2a1a1* - P310

    Y-DNA:
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    Ancient tribe: still to be determined
    Region of origin: South-East Europe

    mt-DNA:
    Haplogroup - U
    Ancient tribe: Slavs, Ancient peoples of Italy
    Region of origin: Eastern Europe

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    I am ethnic Albanian from the Republic of Kosovo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gashi91 View Post
    I am ethnic Albanian from the Republic of Kosovo.
    In fact Albania is a kinda Urhemait for European R1b clades. R1b folks (Cardium Pottery or Cardial Ware) entered Europe via Albania and it's the place where the first European clade below R1b-L23 sprung up to life. Moving along seashores R1b folks soon reached South France then Portugal and Britannia. From history we know them as Ibero-Ligurians. Later they were captured and assimilated be IE folks.
    ImpressedWare.jpg

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    I didn't know that. Thank you a lot for the information!
    I am still waiting for full results from iGENEA. With your expertise, what do you think would be my ancient tribe? Even though I am R1b1a2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    that is the problem, you can not combine Pelasgians (sea people) with an epipaleolithic remnant in a mountain area, Pelasgians were intruders in Balkans, not paleolithic or neolithic habitants,

    Pelasgians enter after IE and before troyan war,
    in Ilias homers names them as Ethiopeans Αιθιωψ.
    that means that until Troyan war they were in kind of seperation with IE,

    there is no Neolithic evidence of E HG people except Spain in the rest of Europe,
    but there is the Cyprus and the Konya that fits with all written histories and Myths, and all genetical scientific conclusions.
    better find who were the Pelasgians, from where they came and where they went, and left behind them,

    J2 is older than E in Balkans,
    maybe older than any IE R1 that is why we find the Aryan elements in Greek and Thracian languages,
    and that is that creates the question of IE as a Neolithic agriculture language or as steppe Bronze age language,

    to understand that search Varna Necropolis,
    gold mettalurgy and burial rituals exist in Balkans still today,
    and they are much before bronze IE, meaning that Masks of Thracians and Myceneans was not a teppe culture but a Balkanic one,
    the body position in intermediate kingdom follows that also, meaning that Varna affected even Egypt,
    all Kurgans are much later than Varna, so we see that Balkans learn Kurgan people to use gold in burial rituals,
    considering that the oldest Kurgan is in Syria but archaiologists found it much after then might speak about a J2 population that existed in Neolithic Balkans

    E in Balkans can not be neolithic for 2 reasons,
    1) if is Neolithic in Spain then it should found in France Italy swiss Slovenia Austria Croatia etc.
    but it is not, on the other hand it is found in minor Asia and Greece which surely is tied with Crucciani estimation,

    2) early Neolithic people were G2, isolation of Swiis mountains surely helped G2 to survive the later incoming tribes, if E came from spain why did not create a pocket in Alps? or in North Italy? or in Dinaric Alps or in Tatra and Transylvania?
    (the map you show us is definetly clear that E from spain has nothing to do with Balkanic E, instead the existance in Portugal shows a Levantine connection (Phoenician colonise Portugal in antigue time)

    3) the mother land of an Hg is the land that has the more diversities,
    How many diversities have Albanian E considering with other Blaknic E and with Levant where probably had a founder effect?
    When and where that founder effect happened?
    Hg do not follow hydraulic laws neither political desires.


    4) Both Armenian Hypothseis (Thracians) and Greco-Aryan can be explained with an Anatolian connection of IE and J2 populations as also with R1b (M21 if I remeber correct)
    but they can also be explained if we consider Balkans as homelend of R1,
    the diversities of R1a in Balkans are indeed many, but until today that is consider to happened as a sink phenomena and not as motherland ( I heard it from Macciamo),
    although the case of Sesklo Varna Vinca shows a connection ( The case of pommerania is still a question if being connected with Vinca or with IE)

    the key is the Varna Necropolis, which I bet had I1 and J2 population and misses R1b R1a
    or has R1b and R1a and misses J2, but surely misses E
    the problem is that 6700 years old radiocarbon estimation does give very reliable results.

    but we see that burial customs with Gold, with hands croossed and the weapons-scepters was not an egyptian custom neither a steppe one but a Balcanic one,
    that burial chamber tumulus-kurgan was an anatolian-Near-middle-East custom,



    a good question for you,

    if E Y-DNA in Albania is neolithic? and they vanquish in thin air from spain to kossovo? what about their female population? the mtDNA that mate with them?

    IE as we know took the women from the locals,
    but mtDNA that can could coperate with E is found in an arc from Spain to Lapland scan, almost misses rest Europe and the in Balkans,
    I wonder how come Neolithic population get married? so Neolithic E Hg of Kossovo people storage their women where?
    why you don't search and that?
    if E hg in kossovo was neolithic then it should have also the mtDNA that fits with it? at least in perfect % analogy. does it?

    why should we consider kossovo an exception from the rule?
    I mean if in Europe bronze people took the women of local neolithic, then same should happened in kossovo, meaning that if kossovo E-V13 was neolithic the mt-DNA should also be from Africa or Levant but in bigger % cause some of the women were taken by IE R1a and R1b. meaning that in Kossovo we must have above 60% African or Levantine mt-DNA.
    Do we?

    plz answer that question?
    sorry I answer some questions here very late:
    I have no very positive answer for bow, but some remarks:
    Y-E1b- and subgroup V13 are not absent in northern and central and north-eastern Europe: there are found I think everywhere where danubian neolithic ("rubané"/"LBK" derived) can have prospered - so I think E1b was there at least at 6000 BC and I'm pushed to believe they were even older and put on march by some Y-G2a and some Y-J2b from Near Eastern with teached them rairculture and breeding - in Iberia the question is different because some E1B are of the North Maghreb stock -
    E-V13 coudl well have been doped by founder effect among N-Albanians - but if I remember well, their center of variance were before in SW Bosnia & Montenegro? Correct me if I'm wrong here... if true it coul prove they were almost "autochtonous" at neolithic times
    - the mt DNA and the autosomals of Neareasterners are not absent from Blakans: and some of the so called 'mediterranean' and 'caucasian'/'westeurasian' are there as they are in Iberia at some serious levels, and not only in Italy or Greece -
    - I doubt Phoenicians could have had a so heavy genetic influence upon Portugal and Western Europe nor elsewhere out of their cradle - Portugal seams to me having known a dense demic neolithical arrival on the males side as southern France. and not only at male level - all the way if Lebanians of today are for the most offsprings of Phoenicians, they would have send varieties of genes close enough to the ones send by Neolithical colonizators-only a detailed survey about downstream Hgs could help -

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I guess I am not explaining myself fully. I am not saying V-13 came to kosovo from spain, I am saying the opposite, it went to spain from kosovo. Since the spanish one is proved to be from 7000 BC, that makes the one in kosovo even older, probably around 10000 BC, which is well into the stone-age.
    How did it get to kosovo? probably from the middle east through anatolia.
    why the fountain was kosovo and not somewhere else in the balkans? because thats what the map visually shows, the epicenter of v-13 seems to be kosovo. That kind of circular spread through multiple countries and languages did not happen overnight, it takes thosands of years.
    why v-13 has no mutations in kosovo? who is to say that it doesn't. There have been found only a handful of people in the world that have subclades of v-13. 99.9% of V-13 people are just v-13.
    where does J2 fit into all this? I dont know. If it makes you happy, I am willing to accept that it came around the same time with the first farmers.
    I do agree with you that Illyrians were a mix of v-13, R1b, and probably some I.
    And lets not get carried away too much with the colors here, V-13 was probably fair or olive-skin since even the big E was born around egypt. I am starting to imagine sub-saharan africans wearing greek battle armor and helmet, and singing rap tunes.
    Hear is something for use all.have any albanian in this forum forgot about who most of albanians are an from?most albanians of kosova come from hoti,an kelmendi that fled from turks an slavs pushing their way into north albania,,the birth place of ev-13 couldnt be from north strait away,,because ev-13 migrated from asia minor as did the greeks did from asia minor,I think ghegs were pushed upwards to north albania herzgovinia long time ago maybe pushed upwards of the people settled in greece,,3 wakve came from asia minor to greece then spread,I do know why ghegs have such high percent ev-13 because they only mixed with same tribe as still do..

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    What if Albanians are originally J2 and Kosovars are E-V13?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    Hear is something for use all.have any albanian in this forum forgot about who most of albanians are an from?most albanians of kosova come from hoti,an kelmendi that fled from turks an slavs pushing their way into north albania,,the birth place of ev-13 couldnt be from north strait away,,because ev-13 migrated from asia minor as did the greeks did from asia minor,I think ghegs were pushed upwards to north albania herzgovinia long time ago maybe pushed upwards of the people settled in greece,,3 wakve came from asia minor to greece then spread,I do know why ghegs have such high percent ev-13 because they only mixed with same tribe as still do..
    It looks like we need a genetic study specific to people from Kelmendi, Bajram Curri, Plave dhe Gucie, and Kosovo. I bet they would find higher percentages than the surrounding regions for: E v-13, R1b, and I1. In my opinion the bulk of this mountain population was pushed up there with the coming of the Albanian speaking Indo-Europeans in the Bronze Age. Their old language would be whatever Pelasgians spoke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    compare the 2008 article ......2nd chart

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html
    I can give you a little idea,The map that you showed is part of kosova an north albania where it is high as i thought,,the kosova albanians well most come from north albania from 2 tribes hoti,an kelmendi,,so the kosova albanians would be the same as north albanians because they are all from same tribes,kosova albanians have such high percent of ev-13 because they only mixed in same tribes as does northerns,,so my question who are greeks if albanians have a high percent of ev-13?an its not southern albanian genetics its gheg albanian,,,

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    It looks like we need a genetic study specific to people from Kelmendi, Bajram Curri, Plave dhe Gucie, and Kosovo. I bet they would find higher percentages than the surrounding regions for: E v-13, R1b, and I1. In my opinion the bulk of this mountain population was pushed up there with the coming of the Albanian speaking Indo-Europeans in the Bronze Age. Their old language would be whatever Pelasgians spoke.
    I agree 100% with you kelmendi is huge in kosova as you know such as rugova albanians they are from kelmendi an krasnichi is from hoti,,both 2 huge tribe of kosova id say krasnichi is biggest..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    I agree 100% with you kelmendi is huge in kosova as you know such as rugova albanians they are from kelmendi an krasnichi is from hoti,,both 2 huge tribe of kosova id say krasnichi is biggest..
    sorry kelmendi is tribe of north albania many albanians from that tribe fled to kosvova,,as well as krasnichi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    What if Albanians are originally J2 and Kosovars are E-V13?
    not possiable, both speak same language same tribes same traditions same kanuni..it cant happen

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    It looks like we need a genetic study specific to people from Kelmendi, Bajram Curri, Plave dhe Gucie, and Kosovo. I bet they would find higher percentages than the surrounding regions for: E v-13, R1b, and I1. In my opinion the bulk of this mountain population was pushed up there with the coming of the Albanian speaking Indo-Europeans in the Bronze Age. Their old language would be whatever Pelasgians spoke.
    I think albanians were their much before the other halpgroups,im not saying this because im albanian im a open minded albanian but when it comes to tribes an people i know ell of..something is interesting is that most albanians of kosova an north albania has green eyes,hazel an blue,but their feature is not seen to others in balkans not surrounding countrys,,im 6ft hazel eyes brown hair,my whole family have blue hazel eyes,,this is common features of tribes of kelmendi an hoti in north albania and in kosova,,but we have less slavnic blood than others in balkans,,this would explain how we lived sicluded in tribes and away from invading slavnics,,an if I2a2 were in balkans before us then we would have more I2 than what we have now witch is not much not even 7% because their is far more slavnics than us in balkan coast.its just logic,,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    With that map i wanted to point out the fact that Tosks have an Higher presence of Slavic HG compared to Ghegs.
    I is clearly on majority I2a1b, R1a should be higher in South Albania and R1b the reverse.
    Tosks dont live in tribes,It would make sense tha ghegs would have more slavnic genetics because they lived close to them,,but check out the slavnic migration and where they settled,You may find your answer their,,

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    not possiable, both speak same language same tribes same traditions same kanuni..it cant happen
    Well, very high percentage of nations that thought to be homogenic are proved to be very heterogenic nowdays. Which language someone speaks, or what one thinks he is, is not of much concern for us if we're making a realistic map. Studies show a J prevalence in Albania, and E dominance in Kosovo.

    I think that there is a reasonable doubt that major part of Albanians came form southern Italy.


    p.s. I'm using these terms to denotate physical lines of the states, not national identity.

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