Kosovo Albanians Haplogroups?

hmmm Do toy suggest that Illyria is an exonyme? Historical facts show that used the name of Illyros so it could be an esonyme,

sorry for intruding just wanted to say that whether Illyria is an exonym is open to interpretation. To us Albanians it's easy to understand the word as "i lir"=free one (person)

The only Northern population that is known in Albania is the Goranjie but they do not seem to enter these aspirations,
Goranjie population does not seem to give these aspirations to Albanian language

I would like to know what is this population, do you mean people called the Gora people? the muslim slavs?

The only Historical data that can explain this phenomenon is the Getan colonists, especially in Dardania as also Germidava and others in Albania a possible Visigothic or ostrogothic influence or devastation, The Maniakis army (Arbanites) , the Hunjiades army which we know settled in Albania after the battles

people discussing Albania have gone through all the above alternatives but they do not have factual support they are simply theories, some even wild ones.

The truth is that all modern Balcanic nationalities comes from a mix of an older, with a new one,
agree
 
All Humanity is divided among 3 lineages as follows:

1) Hamtics:
would be Halopgroup DE O > Halopgrou
D and Halopgroup E Halopgroup 0(Original Romans=E-V13, Latin Americans, Egyptians, Chinese, Ethiopians, Libyans, Morrocans, Palestinians...)

2)Semites:
IJ (S2) > J (M304) > J1 (M267) and J2 (M175) (Israelites, Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Iraquis, Chechens, Jordans...)

3)Japhethics-Caucasians would be
P (M45) > R (M207) > R1 (M173) > R1b (M343) > R1b1 (P25) > R1b1c (M269) (Rusians, Slavics, Celtics)
P (M45) > Q (M45) (Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, Native Americans)
 
You were the one who mentioned about study upon Illyrian Y-DNA not me. Don't act goofy. I don't know the name of the study exactly since i didn't even take and read seriously.

Well whats the point then, you make decisions without reading anything..............I already posted this once before on another thread, its from Anthropos congress written by Anita Sujoldzic and Marjeta Kos

Just check my link on modern day albanians DNA 2008
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/fig_tab/ejhg2008249f2.html#figure-title
 
I 'm lost among all these biblic references... Romans = Chineses? OK, no problem, I'm going to take some medical pills with a taste of fresh water...
joke?
 
Well whats the point then, you make decisions without reading anything..............I already posted this once before on another thread, its from Anthropos congress written by Anita Sujoldzic and Marjeta Kos

Just check my link on modern day albanians DNA 2008
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/fig_tab/ejhg2008249f2.html#figure-title

No i didn't made decisions without reading since i have putted an eye to that pseudo-study. It is crazy to argue about the percentages of tribes of rather not well documented ancient peoples. You people give the impression as if they have tested the Illyrian skulls.
 
Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania.

amazing what you are saying (writing) here!
a lot of Slavs descendants among Tosks? I partially disagree -
I2a1b-Din was not arrived there with Slavs only - there was a lot of bearers among Balkans populations before yet - Y-R1a is common among Slavs but some of them could be older in Balkans too (even some Hellenes could have hadsome variants of Y-R1a) - I do not know where your data are coming from, but Albanians as a whole do not show too much R1a (about 9%?) nor too much I2a1b (about 14%?) - the only very striking difference with Kossovars is about Y-E1b1 by far higher among Kosovars (about 25% to 43%?)... So I do not think that Slavs influence is very heavy in S-Albanians (it is confirmed apparently by phenotypes): I should put the % of 10% at most, not discarding history ; I think yet Kosovars are "purest", but alos for other causes: true Albanians was more "central" and they push on previous Epirus populations taking a foot on Adriatic seashores only recently enough - maybe have you some precise data about Tosks and Kosovars?
albanians.png

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html

Check here
 
Tosc Albanians are much closer to Greeks in many respects. That makes sense if you consider that the population of Albania around 1600 is estimated to be around 200.000 inhabitants. The Greek colonisation in antiquity could have had an impact.

Genetically Northern Greece has 21% of E. Central and South Greece have around 29 %. Tosk Albanians have 28 %, very similar to the Greeks. While Ghegh Albanians with 42% are in a league of their own. Also, central and northern Greece have around 4.5-6% of G, Tosc Albanians have 3.5% while Gheghs have only 1%. So Kosovars who, if we could argue that they have mixed less, have almost no G.

Toscs have far higher frequencies of 'I' compared to both Greeks and Kosovars. Greeks in general have around 12%, Gheghs have 9%, while Toscs have almost 26%. Very similar to South Slavs. However, we should note the Northern Greeks have 22% of 'I' also.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html
 
Something is really wrong with that study. Jevg and Gabel are just two names used for Gypsies. I don't understand that "all" in the end. All Albanians 12.78% H1? How did they count them? Did they considered 25% of the population Gheg, 25% Tosk, 25% Jevg and 25% Gabel to reach those conclusions? Gypsies are not 50% of the Albanian population. Gypsies are not 50% of any population in Europe. Also the Gheg-Tosk speakers are not equal in number either either. I would say there are more Ghegs (considering Ghegs reside in Kosovo, Northern and Central Albania<not counting Tirana which is a mixed bag, however the families that have been in Tirana before 1921 (when it was made the capital) preserve the two Gheg features: r-to-n and a-to-o shift> while Tosks in South with some minorities in Greece and Italy; division line is Shkumbin river) but I can't find official statistics, so I'm just gonna have to accept those results.

Those are my main concerns, but I don't see a problem with the results ignoring the "all" part.
 
it is not too precise for SNPs but I thank you - the %s about Y-E1b1 in Ghegs is very high as the one I first saw for Kosovars -other survey give only about 34% I think, but all the way, Ghegs and Kosovars show more Y-E1b than Tosks -
have a good night ('if you're not sleeping yet!)
With that map i wanted to point out the fact that Tosks have an Higher presence of Slavic HG compared to Ghegs.
I is clearly on majority I2a1b, R1a should be higher in South Albania and R1b the reverse.
 
It all makes sense if one considers the mountains of northern albanian to be the source of E V-13 in the balkans
Even the illyrian "invaders" with their R1b might not have been able to fully control some of those mountain areas.
These mountaineous people have even saturated the slavic serbs with some 20% V-13, if I am not mistaken.
This makes ghegs closer to the indigenous pre indo-european pelasgians, and tosks a more indo-european mix.
Greeks of today have some J2a cretan influences that albanians dont have. And then there is that mysterious
15% J2b2 that both gheg and tosk have in common, which greeks dont have. So there are multiple dimensions to
consider and it is hard to tell who the tosks are closer to. But this is a quite commons situation with a lot of
european populations.
 
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It all makes sense if one considers the mountains of northern albanian to be the source of E V-13 in the balkans
Even the illyrian "invaders" with their R1b might not have been able to fully control some of those mountain areas.
These mountaineous people have even saturated the slavic serbs with some 20% V-13, if I am not mistaken.
This makes ghegs closer to the indigenous non indo-european pelasgians, and tosks a more indo-european mix.
Greeks of today have some J2a cretan influences that albanians dont have. And then there is that mysterious
15% J2b2 that both gheg and tosk have in common, which greeks dont have. So there are multiple dimensions to
consider and it is hard to tell who the tosks are closer to. But this is a quite commons situation with a lot of
european populations.

that is the problem, you can not combine Pelasgians (sea people) with an epipaleolithic remnant in a mountain area, Pelasgians were intruders in Balkans, not paleolithic or neolithic habitants,

Pelasgians enter after IE and before troyan war,
in Ilias homers names them as Ethiopeans Αιθιωψ.
that means that until Troyan war they were in kind of seperation with IE,

all data, all genetic results fits with Cruciani and al, and the history of Kadmos father of Illyros.

there is no Neolithic evidence of E HG people except Spain in the rest of Europe,

but there is the Cyprus and the Konya that fits with all written histories and Myths, and all genetical scientific conclusions.

better find who were the Pelasgians, from where they came and where they went, and left behind them,

J2 is older than E in Balkans,
maybe older than any IE R1 that is why we find the Aryan elements in Greek and Thracian languages,
and that is that creates the question of IE as a Neolithic agriculture language or as steppe Bronze age language,

to understand that search Varna Necropolis,
gold mettalurgy and burial rituals exist in Balkans still today,
and they are much before bronze IE, meaning that Masks of Thracians and Myceneans was not a teppe culture but a Balkanic one,
the body position in intermediate kingdom follows that also, meaning that Varna affected even Egypt,
all Kurgans are much later than Varna, so we see that Balkans learn Kurgan people to use gold in burial rituals,
considering that the oldest Kurgan is in Syria but archaiologists found it much after then might speak about a J2 population that existed in Neolithic Balkans

E in Balkans can not be neolithic for 2 reasons,
1) if is Neolithic in Spain then it should found in France Italy swiss Slovenia Austria Croatia etc.
but it is not, on the other hand it is found in minor Asia and Greece which surely is tied with Crucciani estimation,

2) early Neolithic people were G2, isolation of Swiis mountains surely helped G2 to survive the later incoming tribes, if E came from spain why did not create a pocket in Alps? or in North Italy? or in Dinaric Alps or in Tatra and Transylvania?
(the map you show us is definetly clear that E from spain has nothing to do with Balkanic E, instead the existance in Portugal shows a Levantine connection (Phoenician colonise Portugal in antigue time)

3) the mother land of an Hg is the land that has the more diversities,
How many diversities have Albanian E considering with other Blaknic E and with Levant where probably had a founder effect?
When and where that founder effect happened?
Hg do not follow hydraulic laws neither political desires.


4) Both Armenian Hypothseis (Thracians) and Greco-Aryan can be explained with an Anatolian connection of IE and J2 populations as also with R1b (M21 if I remeber correct)
but they can also be explained if we consider Balkans as homelend of R1,
the diversities of R1a in Balkans are indeed many, but until today that is consider to happened as a sink phenomena and not as motherland ( I heard it from Macciamo),
although the case of Sesklo Varna Vinca shows a connection ( The case of pommerania is still a question if being connected with Vinca or with IE)

the key is the Varna Necropolis, which I bet had I1 and J2 population and misses R1b R1a
or has R1b and R1a and misses J2, but surely misses E
the problem is that 6700 years old radiocarbon estimation does give very reliable results.

but we see that burial customs with Gold, with hands croossed and the weapons-scepters was not an egyptian custom neither a steppe one but a Balcanic one,
that burial chamber tumulus-kurgan was an anatolian-Near-middle-East custom,



a good question for you,

if E Y-DNA in Albania is neolithic? and they vanquish in thin air from spain to kossovo? what about their female population? the mtDNA that mate with them?

IE as we know took the women from the locals,
but mtDNA that can could coperate with E is found in an arc from Spain to Lapland scan, almost misses rest Europe and the in Balkans,
I wonder how come Neolithic population get married? so Neolithic E Hg of Kossovo people storage their women where?
why you don't search and that?
if E hg in kossovo was neolithic then it should have also the mtDNA that fits with it? at least in perfect % analogy. does it?

why should we consider kossovo an exception from the rule?
I mean if in Europe bronze people took the women of local neolithic, then same should happened in kossovo, meaning that if kossovo E-V13 was neolithic the mt-DNA should also be from Africa or Levant but in bigger % cause some of the women were taken by IE R1a and R1b. meaning that in Kossovo we must have above 60% African or Levantine mt-DNA.
Do we?

plz answer that question?
 
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that is the problem, you can not combine Pelasgians (sea people) with an epipaleolithic remnant in a mountain area, Pelasgians were intruders in Balkans, not paleolithic or neolithic habitants,

Pelasgians enter after IE and before troyan war,
in Ilias homers names them as Ethiopeans Αιθιωψ.
that means that until Troyan war they were in kind of seperation with IE,

all data, all genetic results fits with Cruciani and al, and the history of Kadmos father of Illyros.

there is no Neolithic evidence of E HG people except Spain in the rest of Europe,

but there is the Cyprus and the Konya that fits with all written histories and Myths, and all genetical scientific conclusions.

better find who were the Pelasgians, from where they came and where they went, and left behind them,

J2 is older than E in Balkans,
maybe older than any IE R1 that is why we find the Aryan elements in Greek and Thracian languages,
and that is that creates the question of IE as a Neolithic agriculture language or as steppe Bronze age language,

to understand that search Varna Necropolis,
gold mettalurgy and burial rituals exist in Balkans still today,
and they are much before bronze IE, meaning that Masks of Thracians and Myceneans was not a teppe culture but a Balkanic one,
the body position in intermediate kingdom follows that also, meaning that Varna affected even Egypt,
all Kurgans are much later than Varna, so we see that Balkans learn Kurgan people to use gold in burial rituals,
considering that the oldest Kurgan is in Syria but archaiologists found it much after then might speak about a J2 population that existed in Neolithic Balkans

E in Balkans can not be neolithic for 2 reasons,
1) if is Neolithic in Spain then it should found in France Italy swiss Slovenia Austria Croatia etc.
but it is not, on the other hand it is found in minor Asia and Greece which surely is tied with Crucciani estimation,

2) early Neolithic people were G2, isolation of Swiis mountains surely helped G2 to survive the later incoming tribes, if E came from spain why did not create a pocket in Alps? or in North Italy? or in Dinaric Alps or in Tatra and Transylvania?
(the map you show us is definetly clear that E from spain has nothing to do with Balkanic E, instead the existance in Portugal shows a Levantine connection (Phoenician colonise Portugal in antigue time)

3) the mother land of an Hg is the land that has the more diversities,
How many diversities have Albanian E considering with other Blaknic E and with Levant where probably had a founder effect?
When and where that founder effect happened?
Hg do not follow hydraulic laws neither political desires.


4) Both Armenian Hypothseis (Thracians) and Greco-Aryan can be explained with an Anatolian connection of IE and J2 populations as also with R1b (M21 if I remeber correct)
but they can also be explained if we consider Balkans as homelend of R1,
the diversities of R1a in Balkans are indeed many, but until today that is consider to happened as a sink phenomena and not as motherland ( I heard it from Macciamo),
although the case of Sesklo Varna Vinca shows a connection ( The case of pommerania is still a question if being connected with Vinca or with IE)

the key is the Varna Necropolis, which I bet had I1 and J2 population and misses R1b R1a
or has R1b and R1a and misses J2, but surely misses E
the problem is that 6700 years old radiocarbon estimation does give very reliable results.

but we see that burial customs with Gold, with hands croossed and the weapons-scepters was not an egyptian custom neither a steppe one but a Balcanic one,
that burial chamber tumulus-kurgan was an anatolian-Near-middle-East custom,



a good question for you,

if E Y-DNA in Albania is neolithic? and they vanquish in thin air from spain to kossovo? what about their female population? the mtDNA that mate with them?

IE as we know took the women from the locals,
but mtDNA that can could coperate with E is found in an arc from Spain to Lapland scan, almost misses rest Europe and the in Balkans,
I wonder how come Neolithic population get married? so Neolithic E Hg of Kossovo people storage their women where?
why you don't search and that?
if E hg in kossovo was neolithic then it should have also the mtDNA that fits with it? at least in perfect % analogy. does it?

why should we consider kossovo an exception from the rule?
I mean if in Europe bronze people took the women of local neolithic, then same should happened in kossovo, meaning that if kossovo E-V13 was neolithic the mt-DNA should also be from Africa or Levant but in bigger % cause some of the women were taken by IE R1a and R1b. meaning that in Kossovo we must have above 60% African or Levantine mt-DNA.
Do we?

plz answer that question?

To my knowledge they haven't found J2 or R1 which is older than V-13 in europe. Correct me with a source if I am wrong.

You're right to doubt me calling V-13 people as pellasgian because pellasgian has been used as a general term for the people that were in greece before the ancient greeks. But V-13 seems to fit them better that any other hg, an older member of this forum (Maciamo) was of the same opinion in another thread.

All that stuff about greek mythology is more fiction than fact. Can you bring beowulf tales to a Law Court?

To my knowledge mt-DNA is pretty homogenous in this area even though y-DNA might vary, plus combining both to form conclusions is more complex than what you're saying.

Why did V-13 vanquish from spain to kosovo? It hasn't really vanquished, it is still one of the most common hg-s in europe. If you're expecting a trail of human fossils accross europe from 10000 yrs ago with clear y-DNA on them, good luck with that.
 
To my knowledge they haven't found J2 or R1 which is older than V-13 in europe. Correct me with a source if I am wrong.

You're right to doubt me calling V-13 people as pellasgian because pellasgian has been used as a general term for the people that were in greece before the ancient greeks. But V-13 seems to fit them better that any other hg, an older member of this forum (Maciamo) was of the same opinion in another thread.

All that stuff about greek mythology is more fiction than fact. Can you bring beowulf tales to a Law Court?

To my knowledge mt-DNA is pretty homogenous in this area even though y-DNA might vary, plus combining both to form conclusions is more complex than what you're saying.

Why did V-13 vanquish from spain to kosovo? It hasn't really vanquished, it is still one of the most common hg-s in europe. If you're expecting a trail of human fossils accross europe from 10000 yrs ago with clear y-DNA on them, good luck with that.

well lets see,
the greek mythology Gives explanation of Illyrians as mix of Kadmeians and Celts,
Herodotus say that Kadmus brother of Egypt brother of Phoenix (E-V13 probably accadocypriot) entered in south Greece and moved to Illyria to stop the incoming Northerns (Celts -R1b?)
so from the mix of Illyros we find Keltos but as son of Illyros, not in Gaulish land but in Pannoni Basin,
meaning that North of Trballi Thracian existed Celtic population, and we see the connection with Illyrians which probably where a sub-clade of Celtinf speaking people (Not Gauls of Roman era)
the other myth of Epidameians (today Duress) say about a Cyclop (one eye-Choros -eye of Ra) came from Sicily, Sikelia was full of Phoenician colonies and has also connection with sea peoples,

now in homer we also see the existance of Αιθιωψ (ethiopean royal warrior) so we know that these people co-existed with IE in south perts of Balkans,
Thebes city of Kadmos is estimated to build around 2000 Bc which fits the myth with Crucciani approach and Dienekes aproach,
the difference among the myth is that Dienekes gives a slowly expand to North while the myth gives a fast,
both myths are connecting a North Central European Celtic or para-Caltic (the ones named as Illyrians) with an African or levantine admixture,
now if E of Kossovo is same with E of Greece or one is arcado-Cypriot and the other Sicilian I can not tell, but seems to me that both entered same time about.

the thread of sea peoples gives some interesting opinions, as also the thread about Pelasgians,
you can read it,
Pelasgians seems to be connected with Palestine and Aegean before move to Italy,
Thoukidides and the rest can help us identify them as the Thyrrenians (Lemnos stele) a west Akkadian, or Aegean phoenician culture, sure is that Falisti Pelasgi Philistines where the same people probably.

now i am not passing a judge so I don't go to court, but when archaiology, Historians, Myths, Genetics, linguistic say the same. I don't need to go to a court,

to your knowledge Greece has more apreciate mtDNA with E-v13 people than Kossovo.
I am not posting anything about that, since you are an Albanian then you must know about that, cause Zeus10 partners said that Greek are gypsies from Sahara Desert due to some mtDNA evidences and Albanians are Arian race, pure and white Europeans, yet political and not scientific claims always booming bubbles. so ask them in which search that mt-DNA was found in Greece,

ok you claim a Spanish population which is beside Africa (how long is Gibraltar?) to come to Kossovo having 46% of population while in its path we find none of its trails? not even a pocket in France in Italy Alps etc, and we have in nearby minor Asia and Greece and cyprus Levant Egypt Historical facts, bones, archaiology, linguistic, genetic.

about R1 in Balkans don't ask me, some claim that entered much after Varna Necropolis and is connected with both Mycaneans and Thracians.
so most possible is that R1a entered much after Varna culture and Vinca,
except if homeland of R1a is Balkans (has enough diversity)

to understand balkans you must watch the 4rth,
choirokoitia Cyprus, Sesklo/dimini/ Vinca and Varna, Cyclades and IEans
Balkan has almost zero mesolithic, but from an epipaleolithic pass sudenly to Neolithic (Sesklo archaiological)
meaning that had 2 waves of agricultural neolithic people,
probably G2 was the first wave and a second entered at about 5 000 BC,
the most logical is to be J2-I1 population since R1b and R1a entered at 3000-3500 stoping Varna and Vinca cultures with arsenic Bronze,
or R1 is local Balcanic- minor Asian that expand to steppe and destroy it shelf, in the last case J2 entered at iron age,
but from the burial masks we seek for an hg that was in both Varna and then Thracian and Mycenean, that kept the tradition,
guess which can these be.
 
well lets see,
the greek mythology Gives explanation of Illyrians as mix of Kadmeians and Celts,
Herodotus say that Kadmus brother of Egypt brother of Phoenix (E-V13 probably accadocypriot) entered in south Greece and moved to Illyria to stop the incoming Northerns (Celts -R1b?)
so from the mix of Illyros we find Keltos but as son of Illyros, not in Gaulish land but in Pannoni Basin,
meaning that North of Trballi Thracian existed Celtic population, and we see the connection with Illyrians which probably where a sub-clade of Celtinf speaking people (Not Gauls of Roman era)
the other myth of Epidameians (today Duress) say about a Cyclop (one eye-Choros -eye of Ra) came from Sicily, Sikelia was full of Phoenician colonies and has also connection with sea peoples,

now in homer we also see the existance of Αιθιωψ (ethiopean royal warrior) so we know that these people co-existed with IE in south perts of Balkans,
Thebes city of Kadmos is estimated to build around 2000 Bc which fits the myth with Crucciani approach and Dienekes aproach,
the difference among the myth is that Dienekes gives a slowly expand to North while the myth gives a fast,
both myths are connecting a North Central European Celtic or para-Caltic (the ones named as Illyrians) with an African or levantine admixture,
now if E of Kossovo is same with E of Greece or one is arcado-Cypriot and the other Sicilian I can not tell, but seems to me that both entered same time about.

the thread of sea peoples gives some interesting opinions, as also the thread about Pelasgians,
you can read it,
Pelasgians seems to be connected with Palestine and Aegean before move to Italy,
Thoukidides and the rest can help us identify them as the Thyrrenians (Lemnos stele) a west Akkadian, or Aegean phoenician culture, sure is that Falisti Pelasgi Philistines where the same people probably.

now i am not passing a judge so I don't go to court, but when archaiology, Historians, Myths, Genetics, linguistic say the same. I don't need to go to a court,

to your knowledge Greece has more apreciate mtDNA with E-v13 people than Kossovo.
I am not posting anything about that, since you are an Albanian then you must know about that, cause Zeus10 partners said that Greek are gypsies from Sahara Desert due to some mtDNA evidences and Albanians are Arian race, pure and white Europeans, yet political and not scientific claims always booming bubbles. so ask them in which search that mt-DNA was found in Greece,

ok you claim a Spanish population which is beside Africa (how long is Gibraltar?) to come to Kossovo having 46% of population while in its path we find none of its trails? not even a pocket in France in Italy Alps etc, and we have in nearby minor Asia and Greece and cyprus Levant Egypt Historical facts, bones, archaiology, linguistic, genetic.

about R1 in Balkans don't ask me, some claim that entered much after Varna Necropolis and is connected with both Mycaneans and Thracians.
so most possible is that R1a entered much after Varna culture and Vinca,
except if homeland of R1a is Balkans (has enough diversity)

to understand balkans you must watch the 4rth,
choirokoitia Cyprus, Sesklo/dimini/ Vinca and Varna, Cyclades and IEans
Balkan has almost zero mesolithic, but from an epipaleolithic pass sudenly to Neolithic (Sesklo archaiological)
meaning that had 2 waves of agricultural neolithic people,
probably G2 was the first wave and a second entered at about 5 000 BC,
the most logical is to be J2-I1 population since R1b and R1a entered at 3000-3500 stoping Varna and Vinca cultures with arsenic Bronze,
or R1 is local Balcanic- minor Asian that expand to steppe and destroy it shelf, in the last case J2 entered at iron age,
but from the burial masks we seek for an hg that was in both Varna and then Thracian and Mycenean, that kept the tradition,
guess which can these be.

I guess I am not explaining myself fully. I am not saying V-13 came to kosovo from spain, I am saying the opposite, it went to spain from kosovo. Since the spanish one is proved to be from 7000 BC, that makes the one in kosovo even older, probably around 10000 BC, which is well into the stone-age.
How did it get to kosovo? probably from the middle east through anatolia.
why the fountain was kosovo and not somewhere else in the balkans? because thats what the map visually shows, the epicenter of v-13 seems to be kosovo. That kind of circular spread through multiple countries and languages did not happen overnight, it takes thosands of years.
why v-13 has no mutations in kosovo? who is to say that it doesn't. There have been found only a handful of people in the world that have subclades of v-13. 99.9% of V-13 people are just v-13.
where does J2 fit into all this? I dont know. If it makes you happy, I am willing to accept that it came around the same time with the first farmers.
I do agree with you that Illyrians were a mix of v-13, R1b, and probably some I.
And lets not get carried away too much with the colors here, V-13 was probably fair or olive-skin since even the big E was born around egypt. I am starting to imagine sub-saharan africans wearing greek battle armor and helmet, and singing rap tunes.
 
I guess I am not explaining myself fully. I am not saying V-13 came to kosovo from spain, I am saying the opposite, it went to spain from kosovo. Since the spanish one is proved to be from 7000 BC, that makes the one in kosovo even older, probably around 10000 BC, which is well into the stone-age.
How did it get to kosovo? probably from the middle east through anatolia.
why the fountain was kosovo and not somewhere else in the balkans? because thats what the map visually shows, the epicenter of v-13 seems to be kosovo. That kind of circular spread through multiple countries and languages did not happen overnight, it takes thosands of years.
why v-13 has no mutations in kosovo? who is to say that it doesn't. There have been found only a handful of people in the world that have subclades of v-13. 99.9% of V-13 people are just v-13.
where does J2 fit into all this? I dont know. If it makes you happy, I am willing to accept that it came around the same time with the first farmers.
I do agree with you that Illyrians were a mix of v-13, R1b, and probably some I.
And lets not get carried away too much with the colors here, V-13 was probably fair or olive-skin since even the big E was born around egypt. I am starting to imagine sub-saharan africans wearing greek battle armor and helmet, and singing rap tunes.


ok we have a total 12000 years v-13 in balkans that came from Africa to middle east to anatolia to kossovo, to go to Spain, while oposite of Spain in NW Africa, what a road?
and we know that if someone bears 10 children and the other 2 then surely that creates a density of a Hg raising to high %, but what about the law of diversities, 12 000 and how many mutations we have.
 
So the name Illirian was actually a word in ''Illyrian'' .. interesting enough liri means free in Albanian.. so this tribe called Ilirian might of called themselves free, or land of the free... so the greeks picked this word up from the tribe and started calling all the tribes around this region that spoke the same language for 'Ilirians' even though they were tribes with their own names.

Or... check this out: Illyrians is not ethnic term if you are reffering on roman province Illricum, why? Because Romans did not care how or how much land will they call by certain name into their province, so "Illyrians" as you call them, and I see many of you on this forum are making the same mistake with this term, were NOT HOMOGENUS people, just like today germans are not homogenus people, just look from today perspective the past in certain cases.

One side of "Illyrians" those northern one (today Croatia, Bosnia) which were called by tribes: Dalmati, Liburni, Japodi etc, were all carriers of I2a2 haplogroup, later romanized by romans into roman citizens, and after fall of roman empire, they will be named by "Vlachs" from slavic settlers who will mixed with them on such high scale, that today croatian dominant haplogroup is I2a2 42%.

Now, the southern Illyrians, means from today central Montenegro trough entire Epirus, were carriers of E1b1b haplogroup, from that ancient times, till today.

And while many of you think that term "Illyrians" should apply on one genetic haplogroup, I cannot believe sometimes that so many of you cannot comprehend that "Illyrians" were not homogenus people, they didn't shared one genetic haplogroup.

Jesus Christ... :)
 
Or... check this out: Illyrians is not ethnic term if you are reffering on roman province Illricum, why? Because Romans did not care how or how much land will they call by certain name into their province, so "Illyrians" as you call them, and I see many of you on this forum are making the same mistake with this term, were NOT HOMOGENUS people, just like today germans are not homogenus people, just look from today perspective the past in certain cases.

One side of "Illyrians" those northern one (today Croatia, Bosnia) which were called by tribes: Dalmati, Liburni, Japodi etc, were all carriers of I2a2 haplogroup, later romanized by romans into roman citizens, and after fall of roman empire, they will be named by "Vlachs" from slavic settlers who will mixed with them on such high scale, that today croatian dominant haplogroup is I2a2 42%.

Now, the southern Illyrians, means from today central Montenegro trough entire Epirus, were carriers of E1b1b haplogroup, from that ancient times, till today.

And while many of you think that term "Illyrians" should apply on one genetic haplogroup, I cannot believe sometimes that so many of you cannot comprehend that "Illyrians" were not homogenus people, they didn't shared one genetic haplogroup.

Jesus Christ... :)


I have wrote about that,
Pliny gives the difference among Illyria and Illyricum,
a clear definition among Illyria proprie Dicti (Illyria) and the roman province of Illyricum,
Roman always did that,
they name Makedonia also Paionia and Sintica,
Achaia the Dorian lands etc.
 

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