Kosovo Albanians Haplogroups?

[Luan]

We first have to define what is Albanian ethicity? Some who believe to be 'Albanians' may have a 'Greek' ancestry, and some who believe to be 'Serbs' may have 'Albanian' ancestry. It's also understood, that Serbian or Greek ethnicity is yet to be defined, thats why I marked all these terms, because they are not quite clear from genealogical point of view.

The better words would be "people from Kosovo that believe for themselves to be Albanians", but that seems too much complicated, and it also brings in the ethnic definition of Albanian (still uncertain), rather than geographical (which I called for).

"people from Kosovo that believe for themselves to be Albanians"
You're making this way to complicated. Its simple I'm Albanian from Kosova, Its says in my Ethnic group under my avatar plain and simple Shqiptar(Albanian).The fact you have dought of people origin, is not my problem.

 

[Ike]

Yes but that doesn't mean that they are what they say. I'm trying to avoid ethnological and national classification.

 

[Yetos]

We first have to define what is Albanian ethicity? Some who believe to be 'Albanians' may have a 'Greek' ancestry, and some who believe to be 'Serbs' may have 'Albanian' ancestry. It's also understood, that Serbian or Greek ethnicity is yet to be defined, thats why I marked all these terms, because they are not quite clear from genealogical point of view.

The better words would be "people from Kosovo that believe for themselves to be Albanians", but that seems too much complicated, and it also brings in the ethnic definition of Albanian (still uncertain), rather than geographical (which I called for).

I agree to a point,

Ethnicity, nationality, cultural belong, relativity, are defined many times different according to a person,

origin of someone is another problem.

historical events religious matters culture and folklor, even basic food production etc can create ethnicities, nations, etc

 

[Ike]

Anyway, I first got th idea of different geneology of Albanians and Kosovars from the third row of the table which shows prevalence of J haplotype in Albania:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

Than I looked upon the maps on J and E haplo, and E is clearly related to inland Kosovo:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg


while J is related to the seaside Albania:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--SgfQ_zyY...AAGq4/R46gxf-Fs7Q/s1600/Haplogroup-J2+Map.jpg


As soon as you go down from Kosovo, into Albania, green color diminishes:
http://oi54.tinypic.com/10yqc07.jpg


Than I looked for other sources, and found that Aromuns (Dukasi, Albania) have almost 50 % of J haplotype:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations

Click on Dukasi, to see where it's located, for reference.


Old Greeks called indigenous tribes of those area Pelasgians, so I looked up for those maps, and I found the map of tribes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

My guess is that black tribes are Greek and they are J haplotype. Kosovars are the red (called Illyrians on the map. Not sure if only Kosovars are included, Greeks may have counted all the infidels as Illyrians) and they are E haplotype.


I'm not sure if this all is correct, but I can't resolve it by myself so I presented it to you guys, to see what you think.

 

[LeBrok]

"people from Kosovo that believe for themselves to be Albanians"
You're making this way to complicated. Its simple I'm Albanian from Kosova, Its says in my Ethnic group under my avatar plain and simple Shqiptar(Albanian).The fact you have dought of people origin, is not my problem.

Yes but that doesn't mean that they are what they say. I'm trying to avoid ethnological and national classification.

Lol, trying to define something in big mixing pot of nations and ethnicities, welcome to humankind. Just wait for Zanipolo to join with his definitions.

 

[zanipolo]

Lol, trying to define something in big mixing pot of nations and ethnicities, welcome to humankind. Just wait for Zanipolo to join with his definitions.

your turn,........... I am tired of talking to :useless: people about albanians.

 

[FBS]

I loved this post by Maciamo in antoher thread started by Zanipolo http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...lations-quot-are-Italians-and-French?p=411082:

I am pasting it here completely.

Quote: You can see in this table the degree of genetic diversity for each population.

The 'self' column shows the number of shared IBD ("identical by descent") blocks with other individuals of that country. The 'other' column compares IBD blocks with other countries. The higher the value the more recent the common shared ancestry. The Italians have the lowest self value (0.6), followed by the French (0.7) then the Belgians, Germans and Swiss (all 1.1). These are Europe's most genetically diverse populations according to this study. This coroborates my own research on surname diversity, which I found to be the highest in Italy, then France, then Belgium.

The most homogeneous by far are the Albanians (14.5) and the Kosovars (9.9), followed by the Slovenes (5.0), the Russians (4.3), the Poles (3.8), and other Slavic peoples. It means that the Albanian and the Kosovan populations expanded quite recently from a much smaller source population.

However the Albanians, Kosovars and Montenegrins have the highest percentage of shared IBD blocks with the rest of Europe. This is surprising considering the very different Y-DNA lineages found among these populations, notably the very high frequencies of E-V13 and J2b. Perhaps it is the result of the Balkans being the starting point of the Neolithic diffusion on the one side, and that the region was also invaded by all kinds of Europeans (Celts, Greeks, Goths, Slavs) who all left their genetic print in the Balkans. So it works both ways. All Europeans have a bit of Albanian, but all Albanians also have a bit of other Europeans in them.

The Spaniards, the Cypriots, and oddly enough also the Macedonians appear to be the most isolated populations from the rest of Europe. They are closely followed by the French, Swiss, Italians, Portuguese and Turks.

The study also supports a recent Slavic expansion, which not only includes the northern Slavs, but also the southern Slavs (Serbs, Croatians, Slovenes, Bulgars) who all share a lot of IBD blocks with other Slavic populations. That could mean that the Eastern European Y-haplogroup I2a1b-Din was spread around the Balkans during the Slavic migrations, and was not present in the region since the Mesolithic, Neolithic or even Bronze Age. End of quote.

Very elegant explanation!

 

[albanopolis]

We first have to define what is Albanian ethicity? Some who believe to be 'Albanians' may have a 'Greek' ancestry, and some who believe to be 'Serbs' may have 'Albanian' ancestry. It's also understood, that Serbian or Greek ethnicity is yet to be defined, thats why I marked all these terms, because they are not quite clear from genealogical point of view.

The better words would be "people from Kosovo that believe for themselves to be Albanians", but that seems too much complicated, and it also brings in the ethnic definition of Albanian (still uncertain), rather than geographical (which I called for).

Albanian ethnicity is defined. Anyone who feels Albanian, speaks Albanian, has given the pledge to the flag, has at least one parent with these qualities, is Albanian.
Albanians are not a race. DNA shows that. Time ater time, different people migrated to the area mixed, learned the language and became Albanians. Same is true for Greeks, Serbs and other nations.
What appears to be a clean race for me are Irish, Scots, Basques and Finns.

 

[albanopolis]

What if Albanians are originally J2 and Kosovars are E-V13?

If they were different, why should they speak the same language? Who's language was Albanian?
I beleive that there is genetic disbalance between Albanians from Albania and those from Kosovo.
There are reasonably accurate studies about Kosovo Albanians (from Pericic) and Albanians of Macedonia.
There are not accurately enough studies about Dna of Albanians from Albania.
There are physical differences between Kosovars and Albnians.
Gegh Albanians are considered "Beautiful people in their own way". I don't know exactly what this means, but every anthropologist that has written about Albanians has emphasized this fact.
Gegh male beauty appeared extremely appealing to the foreign European women and made jelous the counterpart men.

 

[Ike]

Albanian ethnicity is defined. Anyone who feels Albanian, speaks Albanian, has given the pledge to the flag, has at least one parent with these qualities, is Albanian.
Albanians are not a race. DNA shows that. Time ater time, different people migrated to the area mixed, learned the language and became Albanians..

That is a national identity. Just like Americans speak their language, sing a national anthem and have their flag, and say for themselves they are American, but in fact only an extremely small group of them is native American.

If they were different, why should they speak the same language? Who's language was Albanian?

In the old times there was a strong tendency to relate ethnic and linguistic identity of the tribe/people. Nowdays we know better.


For example - some group of Outsider warriors enters a continent and gains a control over a certain small area. They rape, pillage and kill all the men and children available. Word spreads around continent about their mischief, and it gets to the Throne Divinorus (regional interpreter of divine words), which starts calling kings, dukes and maharajas of his realm to gather the army in the name of God. Word about this army getting organized also gets to the Outsiders leaders, and what they hear is if they don't pledge to the Throne Divinorus they'll get crushed by the army of the seven nations. If they do pledge and promise to pay racket and send a certain number of warriors when called, they can retain their position. If they are smart, they agree to this, and they get a Crown. Neither Outsiderian rulers, nor neighbouring kingdom, nor Throne Divinorus care what local population feels about it, as long as they can collect gold and food from them.

If someone wants to get his children educated or working by the Court, etc. he has to give his child to the school to learn Outsiderian. So, in a century or two, all the smart and educated men in the Kingdom end up speaking and writing in Outsiderian. They probabaly know their native languge too, but they use it only to talk to dirty peasants and uneducated mass. If the region was not culturally strong (no books, writings, stone plates, statues, stone buildings to remember them what they are) by the time of renaissance you have a whole nation of Outsiderians, speaking Outsiderian, while in fact NOT being it.

 

[Marko94]

If someone wants to get his children educated or working by the Court, etc. he has to give his child to the school to learn Outsiderian. So, in a century or two, all the smart and educated men in the Kingdom end up speaking and writing in Outsiderian. They probabaly know their native languge too, but they use it only to talk to dirty peasants and uneducated mass. If the region was not culturally strong (no books, writings, stone plates, statues, stone buildings to remember them what they are) by the time of renaissance you have a whole nation of Outsiderians, speaking Outsiderian, while in fact NOT being it.

I do not think like you, remember that for culture (at the time) there was a need of "hofmeister" (tutor).
Who are the "Hofmeister"? Were teachers who were going into homes and taught, they were instructed by vatican.
Albanians, Slavic Macedonians, Montenegrins we have not had a renaissance or a wide cultures because those who "wanted to" study had to go to Turkey.
If the Ottoman Empire had not existed today we could have a view of culture and be influenced by the various currents eg. Enlightenment, Romanticism, and etc..
I often hear people say "Albania is a semi turkish" or "Greeks are Turks" and so on. I think that Turkey is composed by us.

#Srry for my bad english.

 

[Athelti Albanoi]

Anyway, I first got th idea of different geneology of Albanians and Kosovars from the third row of the table which shows prevalence of J haplotype in Albania:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

Than I looked upon the maps on J and E haplo, and E is clearly related to inland Kosovo:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg


while J is related to the seaside Albania:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--SgfQ_zyY...AAGq4/R46gxf-Fs7Q/s1600/Haplogroup-J2+Map.jpg


As soon as you go down from Kosovo, into Albania, green color diminishes:
http://oi54.tinypic.com/10yqc07.jpg


Than I looked for other sources, and found that Aromuns (Dukasi, Albania) have almost 50 % of J haplotype:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations

Click on Dukasi, to see where it's located, for reference.


Old Greeks called indigenous tribes of those area Pelasgians, so I looked up for those maps, and I found the map of tribes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

My guess is that black tribes are Greek and they are J haplotype. Kosovars are the red (called Illyrians on the map. Not sure if only Kosovars are included, Greeks may have counted all the infidels as Illyrians) and they are E haplotype.


I'm not sure if this all is correct, but I can't resolve it by myself so I presented it to you guys, to see what you think.

wow what seriouse sources tinypic blogspot wikipedia and eupedia hahahaha
this drawn maps have no meaning and for sure are not seriouse
there is no difference between kosovo-albanains and albanians from albania like you want it

and the term kosovar does not exist there is no such ethnicity like kosovars
what you mean are albanains which popullate kosovo so north albanians

 

[zanipolo]

wow what seriouse sources tinypic blogspot wikipedia and eupedia hahahaha
this drawn maps have no meaning and for sure are not seriouse
there is no difference between kosovo-albanains and albanians from albania like you want it

and the term kosovar does not exist there is no such ethnicity like kosovars
what you mean are albanains which popullate kosovo so north albanians

The title of this thread makes you wrong. this is about haplogroups and not language, customs, nationality or modern borders.

 

[Athelti Albanoi]

The title of this thread makes you wrong. this is about haplogroups and not language, customs, nationality or modern borders.

yeah about haplogroup in kosovo which is 97% albanian
i was not talking about borders i was just saying that the term kosovar does not exist

 

[zanipolo]

yeah about haplogroup in kosovo which is 97% albanian
i was not talking about borders i was just saying that the term kosovar does not exist

the term Albanian is not a haplogroup term............learn about haplogroups or write in another thread

 

[Athelti Albanoi]

the term Albanian is not a haplogroup term............learn about haplogroups or write in another thread

i know but the thread is about the haplogroups of the albanian population in kosovo
and some serbs come up with nonsese like kosovars

 

[Luan]

the term Albanian is not a haplogroup term............learn about haplogroups or write in another thread

You know exactly what he meant. Its what I been saying.

 

[zanipolo]

You know exactly what he meant. Its what I been saying.

his post#94 means what ............?

The topic was the difference in J2 and E haplogroups between kosovo people and people in albania
These markers are not 97% albanian markers, many people share these markers.

haplogroups are meant to destroy the theory of nationality, because haplogroups have no nationality...learn this

 

[Ike]

h

i know but the thread is about the haplogroups of the albanian population in kosovo and some serbs come up with nonsese like kosovars

There is a Republic of Kosovo, and population living there are Kosovars.
That's a territory everyone is familiar with, and the logic of deriving terms is consistent with other examples.

Germany - Germans
Andalusia - Andalusian
Sicilia - Sicilians

Whether it's a kingdom, state, republic, island, principality, county or any other recognizable geographical region used for administrative or other purposes, terms are marking the population of the region whatever ethnicity it may be.

I understand your need to underline the Albanian ethnicity of the majority of Kosovo population, but this is not a place for that. I think that everyone here already know that, or can easily obtain detailed demographic data from Wiki if interested.


You can't talk about "haplogroups of the albanian population in kosovo" because we don't know who are Albanians on Kosovo. What if there were Serbs that converted to Islam and took over Albanian national identity for opportunistic reasons? What if there are Serbs on Kosovo, that you don't count as 'Kosovo Albanians', but in fact were Albanians 300 years ago? In the end, in what context am I using term Serb here? Do I think of linguistical R1a Serbian? Or maybe I2 Serbian from Bosnia? Or do I think of today Serbian as a citizen of Republic of Serbia which is 1/5 of all that? It all easily breaks apart, if we try to use these terms for ethnic denotation, and that's why we don't.

 

[Athelti Albanoi]

h

There is a Republic of Kosovo, and population living there are Kosovars.
That's a territory everyone is familiar with, and the logic of deriving terms is consistent with other examples.

Germany - Germans
Andalusia - Andalusian
Sicilia - Sicilians

Whether it's a kingdom, state, republic, island, principality, county or any other recognizable geographical region used for administrative or other purposes, terms are marking the population of the region whatever ethnicity it may be.

I understand your need to underline the Albanian ethnicity of the majority of Kosovo population, but this is not a place for that. I think that everyone here already know that, or can easily obtain detailed demographic data from Wiki if interested.[/QUOTE

i understand you but the term "kosovar" still does not exist it was invented in 2008
"kosovar" comes from albanian medias the end "var" is albanian

You can't talk about "haplogroups of the albanian population in kosovo" because we don't know who are Albanians on Kosovo. What if there were Serbs that converted to Islam and took over Albanian national identity for opportunistic reasons? What if there are Serbs on Kosovo, that you don't count as 'Kosovo Albanians', but in fact were Albanians 300 years ago? In the end, in what context am I using term Serb here? Do I think of linguistical R1a Serbian? Or maybe I2 Serbian from Bosnia? Or do I think of today Serbian as a citizen of Republic of Serbia which is 1/5 of all that? It all easily breaks apart, if we try to use these terms for ethnic denotation, and that's why we don't.

hahhahahah time for some :

if one group is not homogenic than for sure its the serbs
before you could occupy the regions around nish the sanxhaks and kosovo all south serbia and montenegro were albanian majority popullated http://ids.lib.harvard.edu/ids/view/3303325?s=.5&rotation=0&width=1200&height=1200&x=-1&y=-1&xcap=mx+H1zMK5j7hx82zCIFrFnVueAoTe4xt4BAJZkh2JsSvCHXXlbDLFXHJfamXnEB%2FVpQ2Zq3hMqoQ0uId28WJ%2Fi0x%2FMXFhOo820NoHx0bMIVufOqRQcRzHzRkULS+WE%2F++M3kp851NZQs8hX1p9KUhf1L4NcjgPdR602ve60%2FATPjo+wupbYiC+Yyhgy1smiFd5YNccjZoj9RrseHovlr2fy7VE4eGUfJnmi1W1wk%2FPKNVu6C1jT6g+TjT2Ow92rJGpMbBWrPc+pNpbg+qHZFaZFt5dmgsbdXuBdYxdHZtYo%3D


if you take the islam as a serb this makes you to a bosnian but not an albanian we have idenity you can not be "albanized" just like that



http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konferenz_von_Münchengrätz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Berlin_(1878)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_(1913)