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Thread: Kosovo Albanians Haplogroups?

  1. #1
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Kosovo Albanians Haplogroups?

    I was wondering is there any data about haplogroups of Kosovo albanians because I'm interested to see is there any big difference between them and albanians from Albania? Because on this table there is nothin about Kosovo yet: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

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    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full

    This is the only one i can find from Kosovo Albanians.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1a2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c3

    Ethnic group
    Kosovar-Albanian
    Country: Kosovo



    This is from wikipedia:

    A study by Peričić et al. in 2005[91] found the following Y-Dna haplogroup frequencies in Albanians from Kosovo with haplogroup E1b1b and its subclades representing 47.4% of the total:

    N E-M78* E-V13 E-M81 E-M123 J2 I R1b R1a P
    114 1.75% 43.85% 0.90% 0.90% 16.70% 7.96% 21.10% 4.42% 1.77%
    J2 should be represented by J2b2. We did the tests for our family (parents/uncles) and we got the E-V13 & J2b2 Y-DNA according to 23andme. mtDNA is much more diverse (J1c3, H5, H13a1...,I1a1). For at least 500 years (even longer) we have the identity of the northern Albanians/Kosovar and Malcor (highlanders).

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBS View Post
    This is from wikipedia:

    A study by Peričić et al. in 2005[91] found the following Y-Dna haplogroup frequencies in Albanians from Kosovo with haplogroup E1b1b and its subclades representing 47.4% of the total:

    N E-M78* E-V13 E-M81 E-M123 J2 I R1b R1a P
    114 1.75% 43.85% 0.90% 0.90% 16.70% 7.96% 21.10% 4.42% 1.77%
    J2 should be represented by J2b2. We did the tests for our family (parents/uncles) and we got the E-V13 & J2b2 Y-DNA according to 23andme. mtDNA is much more diverse (J1c3, H5, H13a1...,I1a1). For at least 500 years (even longer) we have the identity of the northern Albanians/Kosovar and Malcor (highlanders).
    compare the 2008 article ......2nd chart

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1a2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c3

    Ethnic group
    Kosovar-Albanian
    Country: Kosovo



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    compare the 2008 article ......2nd chart

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html
    I do not see that they had any sample of Kosovo Albanians.

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    Seems like Albanians have more E, J2 and R1b than their slavic neighbors. Could it be that R1b comes from Celts?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
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    H3c

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    more celtic
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    I don't see why Celts could have had so a strong influence on Albanians and Kossovars compared to other balkanic people?
    surely these Y-R1b are of old stock (H-35, upstream to Y-R-L51 or L11?) - if I-E (not proved) it could be a leg of Thracians??? (albania language is associated nowaday to dacian-thracian-illyrian satem) - I'm more confident about partial celtic+italic Y-R1b's in Croatia...

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    The region of Dardania was inhabited by Celts, Thracians and Illyrians. there were Celtic tribes that assimilated and were later in time seen as illyrians) by historians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beast View Post
    Seems like Albanians have more E, J2 and R1b than their slavic neighbors. Could it be that R1b comes from Celts?
    Nope. It probably comes from IE Illyrians who came from Central Europe anyway. EV13 and J2b2 are the assimilated Paleo-Balkanites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    Nope. It probably comes from IE Illyrians who came from Central Europe anyway. EV13 and J2b2 are the assimilated Paleo-Balkanites.
    It must be said that the J2 in Albanians is rarely found outside them in the Balkans. Most of it it's J2b2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beast View Post
    The region of Dardania was inhabited by Celts, Thracians and Illyrians. there were Celtic tribes that assimilated and were later in time seen as illyrians) by historians.


    According Myths and History we have

    1) A possible devastasion of Celts Before Hommer at Kadmus times (1500-2000 BC) which create a retaliation movement of Ilyros and its Pelasgians That mix is considered the genesis of Illyrians,
    as Son of Illyros is mentioned the Keltos (Celt) so we see a connection with Celts

    1b) Bryges (Phrygians) are mentioned by some as celtic Brigandi but in ancient times their taxonomy was as Thracians or para-Thracians


    2) Scordisci Serdi Galates (gauls)

    In historical times Celts manage to penetrate Illyria even Greece and Delphi,
    the term Scordisci is Celtic and means scattered it is probably an esonyme
    Scordisci are mentioned to draw back at Nis Serbia parts of Kossovo and then pass Istros (Dunav)
    as Scordisci origin are mentioned some Byzantine Emperrors like Ioustinianus
    Scordisci are also considered to Build the white city (Belingrand)
    we don't have linguistic evidence of Scordisci but we know that had society and inner construction like the La Tene ones

    Serdi are mention to settled around Sofia Bulgaria

    Galates after the repel of their entrance to Greece are mention to settled in ROmania first, then to Bulgaria in Scanza Mountains (today area of Haskovo till sea) and then moved to minor Asia next Pontic Mountains,
    WE know that they Speak a language simmilar to Belgae


    so as a conclusion in what ROmans say Illyricum there was Celtic activity,
    Greeks mention Half Pannoni Basin as the land of Keltos,
    in what we call Illyricum proprie Dicti (Illyria) we don't have historical data about Celtic
    but we have myths that mention Celts (early or proto -Celts since we speak about 1500-2000) and Pelasgians are the fathers of Illyrians

    The Historical data show a possible settlement of Scordisci to Kossovo areas since their center area was Naissus. as also that scordisci passed North of Dunav and even build the city upon which Belingrad is Built,
    Scordisci at 2nd 3rd Century AD are considered to be fully Romanised and mainly serve Roman Legions especially the IV Flavia,

    THERE IS POSSIBILITY THAT SOME Latinophones, AROMANI (VLACH) POPULATION IN THE AROUND AREA TO BE FROM SCORDISCI ORIGIN
    Last edited by Yetos; 17-08-12 at 16:21.
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  12. #12
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1a2*
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    J1c3

    Ethnic group
    Kosovar-Albanian
    Country: Kosovo



    If we compare the data given in Eupedia for Albanians of Albania:

    Albania 2 12 1.5 9 16 1.5 19.5 2 27.5 1 0 0
    Region/Haplogroup I1 I2* + I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J* + J1 E1b1b T Q N

    We see that Kosovar Albanian have a much higher E-V13 and higher R1b (according to Pericic et al. table on my previous post). I strongly believe that E-V13 is a Dardanian (Dorian) marker and J2 Illyrian (Cadmus, Illyros).

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    Actually Eupedia data on Albanians should be refreshed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBS View Post
    If we compare the data given in Eupedia for Albanians of Albania:

    Albania 2 12 1.5 9 16 1.5 19.5 2 27.5 1 0 0
    Region/Haplogroup I1 I2* + I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J* + J1 E1b1b T Q N

    We see that Kosovar Albanian have a much higher E-V13 and higher R1b (according to Pericic et al. table on my previous post). I strongly believe that E-V13 is a Dardanian (Dorian) marker and J2 Illyrian (Cadmus, Illyros).
    considering History, especially the Illyrian wars with Romans, we know that huge devastation from sea was done to mountain Illyria and Dardania.
    It is more possible that the alliance of Greek colonies with Pelasgoid Illyrians against Romans is the 'father' of E HGroup in Dardania, which multiplied and in late byzantine and ottoman era spread around,

    the spread of E hg in balkans show that once was near sea, the vital element of Pelasgians, but the expand in Moesia and Mt Pindus might be a later spread when Albanians had some priviledges,

    So I beleive that E is more Pelasgian connected Illyrians and Phoenicians and Greek colonists(also share Pelasgian),

    Interesting would be the % of R1b among these populations as also its subclades,
    the most interesting whould the analogy of minor Asian Hettit M-23 which is considered basical in Mycenean populations (E-V13 + R1b M-23)

    The J2b is strange case since exist also in Thessaly Makedonia and parts of Italy in parts of Bulgaria and European Turkey and in parts of Albania as interesting amounts,
    Last edited by Yetos; 18-08-12 at 01:19.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U

    Ethnic group
    Hamitic Nation E-V13
    Country: Albania



    Combining the DNA, the Bible and Roman and Greek Mythology this is what I have come with so far:
    1) That the E
    Halopgroup is Hamitic or descendants of Ham (similar to the usage of
    Jews for Semites using for it the Biblical Character Shem, or similar to the
    Biblical character Japheth which his descendants now are called
    Caucasians)
    2) I Read a good book called the Faces of the Hamitic People by
    Khamit Raamah Kush which I found let some light to my Hamitic roots
    3)
    Googled I found that the E-V13 gene pool are Original Roman-Trojan genes (Since
    Saturn Jupiter and Zeus are associated with Nimrod, a descendant of Cush via
    Ham, and histories of Nimrod seeking refuge on the 7 hills of Rome and from that
    point on the Original Romans called him Saturn, Originating the Feast of
    Saturnilia on December 25)
    4) The E-V13 gene root Ancestor was Nimrod the
    Powerful Hunter Before the Lord also called as well the Orion, Zeus and
    Jupiter and Saturn etc
    5) Ham would be the E Halopgroup ==>
    Cush (Cronus)= E-M35 ==> Nimrod (Zeus)= E-V13 ==> Dardanus = Dardania
    ==> Tros = Troy (Trojans)==> Ilus =(Illum) Illyria (Albania)==> Latinus
    = Latin (the Roman form of the Greek Lateinos) Lateo "to lie hid" or the hidden
    one)==> Romulos = Founder of the Roman Empire ==> Me an E-V13
    6) The
    Clue for my findings were the Ethiopians and the Yemeni E-M35 as
    they fit perfectly the Biblical account of Being the descendants of
    Cush
    7) Famous Hamitics E-M35 include Albert Einstein, The wright
    Brothers, and even Hittler. However looks like throughout history there has been
    lots of converts of this Hamitic Branch to Judaism which makes 40% of the Jewish
    Population on the Ashkenazi and Sephardi groups

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBS View Post
    I do not see that they had any sample of Kosovo Albanians.
    its the one called FYROM-albanians , because you take areas into consideration. so, these are northern macedonia and southern kosovo. Its because northern kosovo is serbian and if this is taken into account ( which it is not in the chart) then it distorts the data.

    you do not base ancient dna based on today's national borders. Correct data would be based on cultural borders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    Nope. It probably comes from IE Illyrians who came from Central Europe anyway. EV13 and J2b2 are the assimilated Paleo-Balkanites.
    2007 data on illyrian dna has nothing for kosovo and on albania it gets only 27% ( E3b1-M178 ...renamed now to something else ) and 14.30% ( J2-M172) of illyrian from the Taulantii tribe of illyrians. The kosovo where , if they existed there in the ancient times , the dardanians .

    but there is speculation that the Taulanti where Epirotes and not illyrian ...........this is still being discussed

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    2007 data on illyrian dna has nothing for kosovo and on albania it gets only 27% ( E3b1-M178 ...renamed now to something else ) and 14.30% ( J2-M172) of illyrian from the Taulantii tribe of illyrians. The kosovo where , if they existed there in the ancient times , the dardanians .

    but there is speculation that the Taulanti where Epirotes and not illyrian ...........this is still being discussed
    There is no data on Illyrian DNA. Enlighten me and post that data but before you do that don't link that Croatian pseudo-study pdf crap please.

    Quote Originally Posted by neonimrod View Post
    Combining the DNA, the Bible and Roman and Greek Mythology this is what I have come with so far:
    1) That the E
    Halopgroup is Hamitic or descendants of Ham (similar to the usage of
    Jews for Semites using for it the Biblical Character Shem, or similar to the
    Biblical character Japheth which his descendants now are called
    Caucasians)
    2) I Read a good book called the Faces of the Hamitic People by
    Khamit Raamah Kush which I found let some light to my Hamitic roots
    3)
    Googled I found that the E-V13 gene pool are Original Roman-Trojan genes (Since
    Saturn Jupiter and Zeus are associated with Nimrod, a descendant of Cush via
    Ham, and histories of Nimrod seeking refuge on the 7 hills of Rome and from that
    point on the Original Romans called him Saturn, Originating the Feast of
    Saturnilia on December 25)
    4) The E-V13 gene root Ancestor was Nimrod the
    Powerful Hunter Before the Lord also called as well the Orion, Zeus and
    Jupiter and Saturn etc
    5) Ham would be the E Halopgroup ==>
    Cush (Cronus)= E-M35 ==> Nimrod (Zeus)= E-V13 ==> Dardanus = Dardania
    ==> Tros = Troy (Trojans)==> Ilus =(Illum) Illyria (Albania)==> Latinus
    = Latin (the Roman form of the Greek Lateinos) Lateo "to lie hid" or the hidden
    one)==> Romulos = Founder of the Roman Empire ==> Me an E-V13
    6) The
    Clue for my findings were the Ethiopians and the Yemeni E-M35 as
    they fit perfectly the Biblical account of Being the descendants of
    Cush
    7) Famous Hamitics E-M35 include Albert Einstein, The wright
    Brothers, and even Hittler. However looks like throughout history there has been
    lots of converts of this Hamitic Branch to Judaism which makes 40% of the Jewish
    Population on the Ashkenazi and Sephardi groups
    What you have done here with your points taken here is making a fool out of yourself.

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    leaving some stupefying elucubrations on the side, I give here an humble thought of mine: presence at a point of History of some tribe (celtic or else) for some time in a region is not sufficient for heavy demic imput - some mercenaries sets of bigger tribes ran Europe on every direction, settling here and there and getting away after, and even if sometimes they kept some of their proper wives with them, they did not populate whole Europe with their warriors Y-DNA (only leave some genes) - study the subclades for big HG's is still and more necessry -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    There is no data on Illyrian DNA. Enlighten me and post that data but before you do that don't link that Croatian pseudo-study pdf crap please.



    .
    Link me in which you refer,

    Its odd that croatians, bosnians, montenegrians, albanians and serbians all want a piece of the illyrian DNA solely to justify their identity and lay claims to lands . But Illyrians did not see themselves as Illyrians, they all had different DNA, they all had different dynasties, they warred against each other and never aligned with each other in any major degree except Teuta in the south against the Romans and previuosly when 2 tribes united against Macedonia of Philip II and his son Alexander. The illyrians never laid claims beyond the Drin river as south of this was either epirote and later macedonian lands.

    The naming of Illyria was firstly a greek name and later used by the Romans to indicate varoius tribes/people who had different cultures and languages in a geographical area named Illyria/Illyricum. Its like the Sarmatians where all different peoples and their huge lands had different races..........another is the Golden Horde and many many more

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Link me in which you refer,

    Its odd that croatians, bosnians, montenegrians, albanians and serbians all want a piece of the illyrian DNA solely to justify their identity and lay claims to lands . But Illyrians did not see themselves as Illyrians, they all had different DNA, they all had different dynasties, they warred against each other and never aligned with each other in any major degree except Teuta in the south against the Romans and previuosly when 2 tribes united against Macedonia of Philip II and his son Alexander. The illyrians never laid claims beyond the Drin river as south of this was either epirote and later macedonian lands.

    The naming of Illyria was firstly a greek name and later used by the Romans to indicate varoius tribes/people who had different cultures and languages in a geographical area named Illyria/Illyricum. Its like the Sarmatians where all different peoples and their huge lands had different races..........another is the Golden Horde and many many more
    So what your trying to tell me is that Romans and Greeks called them Illyrians even though they were different people? No. The Illyrians were called Illyrians because they spoke the same language and culture. Even though they didn't have a civilized nation like the Greeks and Romans. of course they didn't call themselves
    Illyrians this is a name from Greeks and Romans, but for some reason Liri means free in Albanian. Anybody know if this word is from Latin or Greek? And yes, they vaged war against eachother. There was an arguement that Albanians don't have war against eachother.. ummm Albanians have blood feuds against eachother more than any other Balkan nation, statistics from the 90's shows 3000 people died a year due to Blood feuds between Clans. And this is probably still the same but the murders are not recorded because nobody reports to the police. It's an eye for an eye, they take the law into their own hands, and if you must know the region of Tropoja in North Albania, bordering Kosovo.. is the most lawless place in the Balkans. Police have no control over that place, it's run by outlaws. illyria was like the wild wild west? well Albania is known for being europes wild wild west. Still this isn't any arguement at all.. And if Illyrians were sea people? So what? They couldn't all of been. they lived in a mountanious region, at some point in time when invadors came they must of moved to the mountains? Some Illyrian tribes are described by historians as mountanious people. Maybe this is where the Albanian language developed. also Marin Barleti accompanyon of Skanderbeg, a historian and priest from 16th century wrote in this book that Albanians were descendants of Epirotans and ancient-macedonians, he claimed Albanians at one point in time lived in Pelponnese and Macedonia but imigrated north. (Believe it or not but Alexander the great and Pyro of Epirus are national heroes in Albania. They named their currency after them from 1912. Lek which means Alexander. with his head on the currency but yet people are ignoring this all the time, you are ignoring what Medieval Albanians wrote. Albanians didn't make this up, Albanians aren't claiming these things just for national pride but these claims date back 600-700 years ago and interesting enough neither greece, or Bulgarians or whatever fyroms are claimed this ancestry at that time it was only medieval Albanians that did this it was not until after independence from Ottoman empire that FYROMS and Greeks started claiming these people and groups. ) Show me a source of Greeks or Bulgarians during Byzantium empire claim ancient macedonians and Epirots? Alexander and Pyrro? These group of people were only celebrated by medieval Albanians ... but still this is nothing, so many unsolved questions.. the thing is we don't know the truth. anything could of happened in the Balkans. who knows maye Albanians don't have one single ancestor? But I think the problem that we are facing in this mystery to find out the truth, the biggest problem is the arrival of the Slavs, history records this.. I don't know if illyrians mixed with them or what happened, but I think some Illyrians escaped to the mountains, but if the Slavs hadn't come there I think this wouldn't of been such a mystery to find out who is descendant from what group, but now we got so many countries like Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Croatia, Albania etc and we don't know for sure.

    And by some historians Dardania isn't even included in Illyria. Seems like Dardanians had their own state and were more civilized. But they were Thraco-Illyrian. So if you mean claiming Kosovo as a land. I don't think south slavs are descendants of Dardanians. If they are Illyrians then why do they speak Slavic? Did Illyrians accept Slavic language but didn't mix with Slavs? No. I don't think so. Because where else did the Slavs go? The Slavs didn't just leave their language in the Balkans and move. history records itself that they settled exactly where today Croatia and Serbia is. Illyrians spoke the same language, that we know for sure, it was closely related to Thracian, some say in Dardania the language became a blend of Thracian and Illyrian. I think during the arrival of the Slavs Illyrians settled for the mountains. And like 80% of Albania is mountains. So how could Illyrians not of been mountanious people? You can't live there without being a highlander unless you live on the sea.

    And Dacian is also included with close connection to Illyrians and Thracians. Dacian-Thracian, Thraco-Illyrian-Dacian.

    Another theory by a professor is that the ancestors of Albanians lived in central europe.

    And Illyrians, Greeks, Epirots, Thracians, ancient-macedonians etc. mixed and intermarried eachother all the time. I think this is enough to explain the close genetic similarities between Albanians and Greeks.

    The I2a in greeks and Albanians comes from mixing with South-Slavs. Intermarriages that have been done through time. The Malesors have intermarried Montenigrins through time. Maybe this is why I2a is high in there. The E in Serbs also comes from Albanians that have been Serbianized and these things have actually happened. Albanians that became Serbs and vice versa. Also we are forgetting the Ottoman empire where not only Turks were generals and Pashas but also Albanians, Bosnians, Serbs, Greeks etc. and haplogroups might of spread through this way too.

    Why is E so low in Croatians? Maybe because they never had any real contact with Albanians and Greeks?

    And I agree with the other post. haplogroups might of come at different times from different areas. But is it a coincidence that celts seem to of been R1b and they were in the Balkans and R1b is also found there in high amounts. is it a coincidence?

    So with that logic the I2a in Albanians and Greeks might not come from south slavs, but it's found in high amounts in south slavs, so why not assume it came from them?

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    As for I2a in South-Slavs, I don't think it's from Illyrian or Thracian. I actually think it came from Sarmatians and Scythians. My theory is that the Scythians and Sarmatians migrated from the Caucasus to Ukraine and to Central Europe. There is a Sarmatian tribe that was called Serboi. They were Iranic speaking.

    I can't post links.


    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi


    I think Croatians and Serbs have the same ancestor. Some Croats still trace their roots from Iranic.

    The Serboi settled in todays Poland in a place and this place became known as white Serbia or white Croatia. meaning West. i.e West-Serbia. because they lived in West Poland.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/white_serbia

    They became slavicized in culture and language. intermarriages were done. hence why r1a is found too. i think slavs were originally r1a carriers.

    Then they migrated to the Balkans.

    I think there was also a Scythian or Sarmatian tribe called Hrvati.

    There is still a group of people in Poland that are Known as Sorbs.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

    (paste that in)

    Could there be done any genetic test on these or has there been done?

    Also I2a seems to be high in east Ukraine and east Romania (close to the black sea)

    Sarmatians settled there too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beast View Post
    So what your trying to tell me is that Romans and Greeks called them Illyrians even though they were different people? No. The Illyrians were called Illyrians because they spoke the same language and culture. Even though they didn't have a civilized nation like the Greeks and Romans. of course they didn't call themselves
    Illyrians this is a name from Greeks and Romans, but for some reason Liri means free in Albanian. Anybody know if this word is from Latin or Greek? And yes, they vaged war against eachother. There was an arguement that Albanians don't have war against eachother.. ummm Albanians have blood feuds against eachother more than any other Balkan nation, statistics from the 90's shows 3000 people died a year due to Blood feuds between Clans. And this is probably still the same but the murders are not recorded because nobody reports to the police. It's an eye for an eye, they take the law into their own hands, and if you must know the region of Tropoja in North Albania, bordering Kosovo.. is the most lawless place in the Balkans. Police have no control over that place, it's run by outlaws. illyria was like the wild wild west? well Albania is known for being europes wild wild west. Still this isn't any arguement at all.. And if Illyrians were sea people? So what? They couldn't all of been. they lived in a mountanious region, at some point in time when invadors came they must of moved to the mountains? Some Illyrian tribes are described by historians as mountanious people. Maybe this is where the Albanian language developed. also Marin Barleti accompanyon of Skanderbeg, a historian and priest from 16th century wrote in this book that Albanians were descendants of Epirotans and ancient-macedonians, he claimed Albanians at one point in time lived in Pelponnese and Macedonia but imigrated north. (Believe it or not but Alexander the great and Pyro of Epirus are national heroes in Albania. They named their currency after them from 1912. Lek which means Alexander. with his head on the currency but yet people are ignoring this all the time, you are ignoring what Medieval Albanians wrote. Albanians didn't make this up, Albanians aren't claiming these things just for national pride but these claims date back 600-700 years ago and interesting enough neither greece, or Bulgarians or whatever fyroms are claimed this ancestry at that time it was only medieval Albanians that did this it was not until after independence from Ottoman empire that FYROMS and Greeks started claiming these people and groups. ) Show me a source of Greeks or Bulgarians during Byzantium empire claim ancient macedonians and Epirots? Alexander and Pyrro? These group of people were only celebrated by medieval Albanians ... but still this is nothing, so many unsolved questions.. the thing is we don't know the truth. anything could of happened in the Balkans. who knows maye Albanians don't have one single ancestor? But I think the problem that we are facing in this mystery to find out the truth, the biggest problem is the arrival of the Slavs, history records this.. I don't know if illyrians mixed with them or what happened, but I think some Illyrians escaped to the mountains, but if the Slavs hadn't come there I think this wouldn't of been such a mystery to find out who is descendant from what group, but now we got so many countries like Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Croatia, Albania etc and we don't know for sure.

    And by some historians Dardania isn't even included in Illyria. Seems like Dardanians had their own state and were more civilized. But they were Thraco-Illyrian. So if you mean claiming Kosovo as a land. I don't think south slavs are descendants of Dardanians. If they are Illyrians then why do they speak Slavic? Did Illyrians accept Slavic language but didn't mix with Slavs? No. I don't think so. Because where else did the Slavs go? The Slavs didn't just leave their language in the Balkans and move. history records itself that they settled exactly where today Croatia and Serbia is. Illyrians spoke the same language, that we know for sure, it was closely related to Thracian, some say in Dardania the language became a blend of Thracian and Illyrian. I think during the arrival of the Slavs Illyrians settled for the mountains. And like 80% of Albania is mountains. So how could Illyrians not of been mountanious people? You can't live there without being a highlander unless you live on the sea.

    And Dacian is also included with close connection to Illyrians and Thracians. Dacian-Thracian, Thraco-Illyrian-Dacian.

    Another theory by a professor is that the ancestors of Albanians lived in central europe.

    And Illyrians, Greeks, Epirots, Thracians, ancient-macedonians etc. mixed and intermarried eachother all the time. I think this is enough to explain the close genetic similarities between Albanians and Greeks.

    The I2a in greeks and Albanians comes from mixing with South-Slavs. Intermarriages that have been done through time. The Malesors have intermarried Montenigrins through time. Maybe this is why I2a is high in there. The E in Serbs also comes from Albanians that have been Serbianized and these things have actually happened. Albanians that became Serbs and vice versa. Also we are forgetting the Ottoman empire where not only Turks were generals and Pashas but also Albanians, Bosnians, Serbs, Greeks etc. and haplogroups might of spread through this way too.

    Why is E so low in Croatians? Maybe because they never had any real contact with Albanians and Greeks?

    And I agree with the other post. haplogroups might of come at different times from different areas. But is it a coincidence that celts seem to of been R1b and they were in the Balkans and R1b is also found there in high amounts. is it a coincidence?

    So with that logic the I2a in Albanians and Greeks might not come from south slavs, but it's found in high amounts in south slavs, so why not assume it came from them?
    I don't want to revisit this again but the Hungarian Alfoldy ,English Wilkins and others all state the same 5 power tribes of the Illyrians as the Romans did
    Illyria identified as five principal onomastic provinces within the Illyrian area:
    1) the "real" Illyrians Autariates, south of the river Neretva in Dalmatia and extending south to Drin river besides Epirus
    2) the
    Dalmatians, who occupied the middle Adriatic coast between the Autariates to the south and the Liburnians to the north
    3) the
    Liburnians, a branch of Venetic in the northeast coastal Adriatic area
    4) the
    Iapodes, who live north of the Dalmatians and inland of the coastal Liburnians
    5) the
    Pannonians in the northern lands

    These are the same as what the Romans called them, of course there are minor tribes inside each of these.

    The reason there is no E in northern Illyricum is because they are different people, different languages, different customs, as an example, the Liburni had only queens as rulers and tatooed their necks, no others did this.

    you can tell form this link, chart 2, that certain haplogroups change as you move north south east and west
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

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    Also, looking at it again, the R1b in Albanians might not of come from Proto-Celts but rather from the Roman empire. We are forgetting the Roman Empire.

    Come to think of it the R1b in Britain might also be from Romans.

    But of course these might be different subclades or how it's called.. excuse me for my english.

    Somehow the Albanians were Catholics and South Albanians Greek Orthodox, some still are. meaning they must of been around during Roman empire.. they couldn't of migrated there after, or else it would of been historically recorded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beast View Post
    As for I2a in South-Slavs, I don't think it's from Illyrian or Thracian. I actually think it came from Sarmatians and Scythians. My theory is that the Scythians and Sarmatians migrated from the Caucasus to Ukraine and to Central Europe. There is a Sarmatian tribe that was called Serboi. They were Iranic speaking.

    I can't post links.


    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi


    I think Croatians and Serbs have the same ancestor. Some Croats still trace their roots from Iranic.

    The Serboi settled in todays Poland in a place and this place became known as white Serbia or white Croatia. meaning West. i.e West-Serbia. because they lived in West Poland.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/white_serbia

    They became slavicized in culture and language. intermarriages were done. hence why r1a is found too. i think slavs were originally r1a carriers.

    Then they migrated to the Balkans.

    I think there was also a Scythian or Sarmatian tribe called Hrvati.

    There is still a group of people in Poland that are Known as Sorbs.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

    (paste that in)

    Could there be done any genetic test on these or has there been done?

    Also I2a seems to be high in east Ukraine and east Romania (close to the black sea)

    Sarmatians settled there too.
    Sarmatians, Alans would have arrived as part of the Ostrogoths , who resided on the northern parts of the black sea for 200 years,( from 200CE to 400CE or thereabouts) then they invaded the balkans and Italy and stayed there for 200 years

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