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Thread: origin of tribal names

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    origin of tribal names



    from proto-indo-european dictionary


    *sueb(h)o, *sued | own => free, own, independent

    hence Swede and Suebi

    *suerb | turn
    *uend | turn

    hence Serbs and Wends
    note that Sorbs (small Slavic nation from East Germany) are also called Wends and Lusatians. they call themselves Serbja

    also
    *uend |beard


    next
    *uent | wind

    hence Veneti

    but isn't the key characteristic of wind to turn around, or to move around?


    Scythians is known to be ethnonym and to mean nomads (Strabo)

    "skitati" in serbo-croat (perhaps also in other Slavic languages) = to wander around, to live in nomad life style
    this may indicate that Scythians in fact spoke proto-Slavic language


    wonder around ( "wandelen" in Dutch) isn't that what wind does?


    old Greek historians write about Thracians and in different time period about Scythians being most numerous people on Earth..
    "skitati" in serbo-croat (perhaps also in other Slavic languages) = to wander around, to live in nomad life style
    this may indicate that Scythians in fact spoke proto-Slavic language

    among largest tribe of Thracians are Getae
    "Sclavos sive Getas hoc enim nomine antiquitis appellati sunt" wrote Greek historian Simokkates in early 7th century AD, hence according to him Slavs are Getae = Thracians

    we know that Thracians are satem PIE speakers like Slavs, Balts and Albanians today...

    we know that Thracians is word written in Greek and that Etruscans who call themselves Rasena are in Greek writing Tyrsenoi... hence it is not difficult to imagine that Thracians in fact called themselves Rascians, which is alternative name of Serbs used in middle age - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia
    but isn't that the same tribal name as Russians?

    note that Bulgaria which fits best into Thrace besides Slavic haplogroups also have significant J2... I explain it with Procopius who identifies proto-Bulgarians as Cimmerrians... and Cimmerians are in my opinon Serians I talked about a lot relating them initially with I2a and later with J2 people...

    etymology of tribal names Scythians, Veneti, Wends, Serbs. Thracians combined with the historic data above seems to suggest that east Europe was inhabited with proto-Slavs also in distant past.. afterall we know that arrival of Slavs from Asia minor in 6th century is modern myth as e.g. west Slavs have dominant clade of R1a that exist only in Europe and is oldest in Serbia

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    from proto-indo-european dictionary


    *sueb(h)o, *sued |own| svoj => free, own, independent

    hence Swede and Suebi

    *suerb | turn
    *uend | turn

    hence Serbs and Wends
    note that Sorbs (small Slavic nation from East Germany) are also called Wends and Lusatians. they call themselves Serbja

    Scythians is known to be ethnonym and to mean nomads

    "skitati" in serbo-croat (perhaps also in other Slavic languages) = to wander around, to live in nomad life style
    you know the word wend was only created by jordanes around 600AD , so what where the people before this called?
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you know the word wend was only created by jordanes around 600AD , so what where the people before this called?
    *uend is reconstructed word in PIE dictionary
    it was not created around 600 AD

    check
    http://www.koeblergerhard.de/idgwbhin.html

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    we know that Greek mythology is full of names that correspond to tribal names (Illyrus, Celtus, Gallas, Aegyptus...)

    i would remind here on my old claim that proto-Slavic people are in that mythology represented as wind gods

    wind = *uentos in PIE (*uent = blowing) (in first post I have wrongly said *uent = wind, but clearly root word is the same)

    hence Veneti = wind people

    Boreas - north wind
    Eurus - east wind
    Zephyrus - west wind with son Carpus

    to me this maps to Prussians on north, Russians on east, Serbs and derived tribe Croats on west...


    note that germanic *wenda/*wendaz is considered derived from *uentos

    3 words in PIE vocabulary
    *uend = turn
    *uent = blowing
    *uentos = wind
    clearly have same root as wind is blowing and turning, moving around or wandering around ('skitati' in Slavic as nomads do and as according to Strabo Scythians name themselves in their own language Scythians = nomads)...

    note also that Zephyrus is born in caves of Thrace and that his equivalent in Roman mythology is Favonius hence tribal name Pannonians in area that is now called Slavonia and which is I suggest the most west proto-Slavic settlement in early Roman times and closest to Roman empire - Pannonians being perhaps together with Scordisci/Serdi as the Danubian Slavs mentioned by Russian primary chronicle as living around Danube and being pushed north by expanding Roman empire... it is not known what language of Scordisci was (Celtic, Thracian and Illyrian are most common assumptions) but it is supposed by modern history that they were Celtic or Celticized, but same holds for many Pannonian and Illyrian tribes that are considered to have been celticized at some point in history..or perhaps just their elite was...or just their culture was influenced by Celtic people...

    note that European only branch of R1a is most dominant in west slavs and is ancient old in Serbia... suggesting that west Slavs origin from area of Serbia..... back to tribal name ethymology...
    Pelasgians = flatland or field people (ethnonym assumed to be related to words pelagos (sea) / plagos(flat) in Greek/Doric)
    Poles (slavic "poljaci") = field people (Slavic polje = field)
    Pannonians = settlers of Pannonian plane = field people

    in PIE:
    *pel - move - alike to "turn" and "wonder around" isn't it?
    *pel - swamp
    *pela- flat

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    *uend is reconstructed word in PIE dictionary
    it was not created around 600 AD

    check
    http://www.koeblergerhard.de/idgwbhin.html
    you mean from the uenicide culture.?.................then we know by mythology , the 4 linguistic, tribal and "genetic" groups where celtic, venetic, baltic and gallic IIRC

    So wend would mean any of these?

    EDIT - or
    UINI, UENE, UENETI, UINU. These are not arbitrary words, but words that can be argued to a)have originated from the same original word, and b)evolved into modern words for peoples with boat-traditions such as "Finnic", "Inuit", "Khanti", "Venedi".
    from Finnic historians, apparently the letter V was originally a U
    Last edited by zanipolo; 02-06-12 at 13:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you mean from the uenicide culture.?.................then we know by mythology , the 4 linguistic, tribal and "genetic" groups where celtic, venetic, baltic and gallic IIRC

    So wend would mean any of these?

    EDIT - or
    UINI, UENE, UENETI, UINU. These are not arbitrary words, but words that can be argued to a)have originated from the same original word, and b)evolved into modern words for peoples with boat-traditions such as "Finnic", "Inuit", "Khanti", "Venedi".
    from Finnic historians, apparently the letter V was originally a U
    I do not understand your arguments....
    you list several fuzzy and unclear assumptions without any arguments backing up your statements...
    try to explain it better, but without referring to modern (19th and 20th century) quasi historians with their biased nationalistic minds...
    use original ancient sources if you can.....

    I will say that besides Jordanes, also st.Columban states that Slavs are Veneti ("Veneti qui et Sclavi dicuntur")
    those two claims are historical data from distant past...

    on other hand all claims that Veneti are some other people are modern speculations of historians and quasi-historians...so those are not historical facts, but educated guesses, opinions....


    in addition it is not clear why you try to explain names of people that do not speak indo-european such as Inuit, and Finnic with indo-european dictionary.....

    apart from that this is clearly about different root words

    1) *uend = turn
    *uent = blowing
    *uentos = wind

    versus
    2) *uen = strive, hit, wound

    its comparable how "think" and "thin" are in english words that do not have same root...
    in such a comparison, root words I use correspond to "think", your stuff corresponds to "thin"

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    from proto-indo-european dictionary


    *sueb(h)o, *sued | own => free, own, independent

    hence Swede and Suebi

    *suerb | turn
    *uend | turn

    hence Serbs and Wends
    note that Sorbs (small Slavic nation from East Germany) are also called Wends and Lusatians. they call themselves Serbja

    also
    *uend |beard


    next
    *uent | wind

    hence Veneti

    but isn't the key characteristic of wind to turn around, or to move around?


    Scythians is known to be ethnonym and to mean nomads (Strabo)

    "skitati" in serbo-croat (perhaps also in other Slavic languages) = to wander around, to live in nomad life style
    this may indicate that Scythians in fact spoke proto-Slavic language


    wonder around ( "wandelen" in Dutch) isn't that what wind does?


    old Greek historians write about Thracians and in different time period about Scythians being most numerous people on Earth..
    "skitati" in serbo-croat (perhaps also in other Slavic languages) = to wander around, to live in nomad life style
    this may indicate that Scythians in fact spoke proto-Slavic language
    Sorry How yes no, but you are dreaming. Your analogies reminds me the ones of Dublin.
    Scythian was an Iranic language, with as much similarities to Slavic, as Latin or Celtic. Your connection to Slavic is through IE connection and not by protoslavic, as you implied it might have been an Iranian language.

    Here is a nice compilation of Scythians, Sarmatians and Alans names:
    http://sarmatianinthesca.blogspot.ca...nal-names.html

    Surely, they were written in Greek and Latin, but as you can see they contain no slavic sounding names, not even close.

    I think that Sarmatians were not Slavs but a ruling class that occupied slavic lands. They were the warriors/nomads/horsemen. In contrast Slavs were the working class, the farmers. Maybe not that noble and romantic, but the pillar of economy and strength.
    After 1,000 years or so, of Sarmatian ruling, Sarmatians got slavinized, and just before slavic expansion all Sarmatians were speaking Slavic. This includes R1a and I2a main slavic groups.

    According to linguistic experts Sarmatian names sound Iranic.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Sorry How yes no, but you are dreaming. Your analogies reminds me the ones of Dublin.
    Scythian was an Iranic language, with as much similarities to Slavic, as Latin or Celtic. Your connection to Slavic is through IE connection and not by protoslavic, as you implied it might have been an Iranian language.

    Here is a nice compilation of Scythians, Sarmatians and Alans names:
    http://sarmatianinthesca.blogspot.ca...nal-names.html

    Surely, they were written in Greek and Latin, but as you can see they contain no slavic sounding names, not even close.

    I think that Sarmatians were not Slavs but a ruling class that occupied slavic lands. They were the warriors/nomads/horsemen. In contrast Slavs were the working class, the farmers. Maybe not that noble and romantic, but the pillar of economy and strength.
    After 1,000 years or so, of Sarmatian ruling, Sarmatians got slavinized, and just before slavic expansion all Sarmatians were speaking Slavic. This includes R1a and I2a main slavic groups.

    According to linguistic experts Sarmatian names sound Iranic.
    personal names alone do not prove much in fact....
    now most of Europe including most of Slavic people carry derivatives of originally Jewish names due to Christianity and names of people in bible stories.... that doesnot make most of Europeans Jewish, does it?

    my point is that name of Scythians is by strabo recorded as endonym and that he also records that its meaning is "nomad", and that only in slavic languages verb "skitati" = to wander around, live in nomad way..
    in addition ancient DNA shows that Scythians were dominantly R1a1 people same as Slavs. I would say these facts taken together are good indication of origin, not necesserilly of identical language.

    Scythians were not necesserilly proto-Slavic people, but I find it curious that we find tribal names derived from
    *uend = turn
    *suerb = turn
    on both ends of R1a spread
    in Sarbans and Indians on east
    and Wends and Serbs on west

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    I do not understand your arguments....
    you list several fuzzy and unclear assumptions without any arguments backing up your statements...
    try to explain it better, but without referring to modern (19th and 20th century) quasi historians with their biased nationalistic minds...
    use original ancient sources if you can.....

    I will say that besides Jordanes, also st.Columban states that Slavs are Veneti ("Veneti qui et Sclavi dicuntur")
    those two claims are historical data from distant past...

    on other hand all claims that Veneti are some other people are modern speculations of historians and quasi-historians...so those are not historical facts, but educated guesses, opinions....


    in addition it is not clear why you try to explain names of people that do not speak indo-european such as Inuit, and Finnic with indo-european dictionary.....

    apart from that this is clearly about different root words

    1) *uend = turn
    *uent = blowing
    *uentos = wind

    versus
    2) *uen = strive, hit, wound

    its comparable how "think" and "thin" are in english words that do not have same root...
    in such a comparison, root words I use correspond to "think", your stuff corresponds to "thin"


    you need to read lithuanian history as they are the Venedae ...they are baltic people. The venedi on the baltic where eliminated absorbed, vanished by 200Ad by the goths.
    We have already proved this.
    Windish people in latvia = balts
    Read http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...istula&f=false
    pages 410 to 416

    in regards my arguements, these are the 4 peoples mentioned in the baltic in the middle bronze age, clearly some stand out for you to easily decipher.

    In regards to word association , we have the gothic word Vinland meaning white lands..what does this associate with

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you need to read lithuanian history as they are the Venedae ...they are baltic people. The venedi on the baltic where eliminated absorbed, vanished by 200Ad by the goths.
    no proof in ancient sources to claim this...
    its modern reconstruction of modern biased historians...
    but at 1AD Balts are probably no different people from proto-Slavs...
    hence, if Balts are Venedae/Veneti at 1AD, than Slavs are as well


    In regards to word association , we have the gothic word Vinland meaning white lands..what does this associate with
    i am not doing word associations in this thread, that is what your biased historians and quasi-historians do...
    what I do is use PIE vocabulary to identify tribal names used by PIE people...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    no proof in ancient sorces to claim this...
    its modern reconstruction of modern biased historieans...
    but at 1AD Balts are no different people from proto-Slavs...





    i am not doing word associations in this thread, that is what your biased historians and quasi-historians do...
    what I do is use PIE vocabulary to identify tribal names used by PIE people...
    You are another claiming other ethnic people as slavs because they can speak a slavic tongue ............this is 100% wrong and you are distorting history.
    As I said on the other thread, I might as well say you are english and not slavic now.......this is how you are thinking.

    Balts and slavs are different, that why they are called balts............you are starting to sound very racial . Write in this site as having no nationality, then we might find things out

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    look at this link, a lot of R1a1 but none are "slavic"
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...7.00429.x/full

    slavic is only a linguistic term that you are trying to "enforce" on other races.

    Polish and russian historians clearly state that the true slavs can only be found in poland and ukraine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    look at this link, a lot of R1a1 but none are "slavic"
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...7.00429.x/full

    slavic is only a linguistic term that you trying to "enforce" on other races.

    Polish and russian historians clearly state that the true slavs can only be found in poland and ukraine.
    at 1AD proto-Baltic and proto-Slavic people most likely speak virtually the same language...

    it is possible that Venedae was tribal name used for those of PIE speaking R1a people living on borders to other people... and being mixed with those other people

    *uend = turn
    *suerb = turn

    on east this border of proto-Scythian are Indians and later in border areas of historic Scythians we now find Sarbans

    on west we have Serbs and Wends (also called Sorbs) with Serbs having genetics mixed with originally Germanic genetic markers from haplogroup I

    on north we have Balts who were also called Venedae..they are border to other people (Finnish) and mixed with them (large haplogroup N)

    but those are ends or borders of spread of originally the same people
    in time of 1 AD only difference between proto-Balts and proto-Slavs is that proto-Balts live mixed with Finish N haplogroup people and on border with them... language spoken is Balto-Slavic...

    to compare, today a name used in Slavic countries for such purpose is Krajina (kraj = end)
    so west of Russia is Ukraine
    and area of Serbs who lived in Croatia and rebel in 90s was called Krajina

    earlier a designation white (west in iranic colour system) was used....
    hence white Serbs and white Croats, and even today white Russians (white = belo => Belarus)

    and side note, word "wend" might still exist in english it is (w)end which is virtually same designation as "Krajina" (end land/border land)

    as for modern historians, well if you want to know the truth read only ancient sources...
    modern historians are typically biased....they want to prove what they already "know" (wish)...
    so they make zillion quasi arguments that support their views...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    at 1AD proto-Baltic and proto-Slavic people most likely speak virtually the same language...
    This does not make the baltic people slavic

    it is possible that Venedae was tribal name used for those of PIE speaking R1a people living on borders to other people... and being mixed with those other people

    *uend = turn
    *suerb = turn

    on east this border of proto-Scythian are Indians and later in border areas of historic Scythians we now find Sarbans
    venedae are baltic people who's southern border was with the Scythians, the Scythians who later got absorbed by the iranic sarmatians. Slavic historians say the Scythian created the true genetic slavs

    on west we have Serbs and Wends with Serbs having genetics mixed with originally Germanic genetic markers from haplogroup I

    on north we have Balts who were also called Venedae

    but those are ends or borders of spread of originally the same people
    in time of 1 AD only difference between proto-Balts and proto-Slavs is that proto-Balts live mixed with Finish N haplogroup people and on border with them... language spoken is Balto-Slavic...

    to compare, today a name used in Slavic countries for such purpose is Krajina (kraj = end)
    so west of Russia is Ukraine
    and area of Serbs who lived in Croatia and rebel in 90s was called Krajina

    earlier a designation white (west in iranic colour system) was used....
    hence white Serbs and white Croats, and even today white Russians (white = belo => Belarus)
    Its the same as the Romans incorporated all these races and taught them latin and they went to all of europe.........are they all Romans that is Latins ..........is this a wrong way of thinking?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    no proof in ancient sources to claim this...
    its modern reconstruction of modern biased historians...
    but at 1AD Balts are probably no different people from proto-Slavs...
    hence, if Balts are Venedae/Veneti at 1AD, than Slavs are as well

    You are the only person on this planet who claims that.
    Simply put, to accommodate the linguistic differences we need to make this split happen around 1,000-2,000 BCE
    Look at Baltic gods pantheon, except Perkun/Perun, there are no other relations with names.
    If Slavic languages split happened 1,500 years ago, and we know how it evolved through europe. When we compare Baltic to Slavic, we need another 1,500 years for the changes between them to occur. It is so different from Slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    This does not make the baltic people slavic
    I do not say Slavic = Baltic... those are modern languages...
    I say that Slavic and Baltic languages are evolution from same language that is in modern linguistics called Balto-Slavic

    in fact, Baltic languages are closer to that reconstructed Balto-Slavic language
    perhaps due to large influence of e.g. Germanic and Sarmatian in recent development of Slavic languages...

    venedae are baltic people who's southern border was with the Scythians, the Scythians who later got absorbed by the iranic sarmatians. Slavic historians say the Scythian created the true genetic slavs
    originally they were same people
    i say that *uend and *suerb was just used as a name for border lands of R1a people....

    note also term Siberia on east most end.....

    Its the same as the Romans incorporated all these races and taught them latin and they went to all of europe.........are they all Romans that is Latins ..........is this a wrong way of thinking?
    its not the same because Baltic languages are closer to Balto-Slavic than Slavic languages...
    it means that Balto-Slavic stayed more or less preserved in Baltic countries while it was somewhat modified in Slavic people due to influence of other languages, perhaps Germanic and Sarmatian....

    well, if you do not trust me ask linguists...

    essentially this additional influence that made Slavic was likely carried by I2a-din people...as Balts do not have i2a-din and other people derived from Balto-Slavic people do...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You are the only person on this planet who claims that.
    Simply put, to accommodate the linguistic differences we need to make this split happen around 1,000-2,000 BCE
    Look at Baltic gods pantheon, except Perkun/Perun, there are no other relations with names.
    If Slavic languages split happened 1,500 years ago, and we know how it evolved through europe. When we compare Baltic to Slavic, we need another 1,500 years for the changes between them to occur. It is so different from Slavic.
    maybe the split was earlier maybe it was not... we do not know that... but even today big part of vocabulary is shared between Baltic and Slavic languages... i think difference is comparable to different branches of Germanic or Italic languages... and e.g. in Italic languages that split was in relatively near past...due to latin being imposed across Roman empire...

    that is not the point of my posts....

    i claim that *uend and *suerb were originally used by same people to name the part of those people who lived on border lands (India, Sarbans, Wends, Serbs, Siberia, Venedae).... that could have been around 1000 BC or 1AD... it doesnot really matter...
    *uend being designation for border people means it was not used just for Baltic people but also for other border people such as e.g. Sorbs (also called Wends & Lusatians)

    Slavic is modern derivation of Balto-Slavic language that came to existence probably under influence of Germanic and Sarmatian languages.. its not just evolution, its merging of elements of different PIE derived languages which is something that speeds up development of languages....

    we know that historical opportunity for this was somewhere between 1 AD and 500 AD...
    split could have been before as well....Sarmatians flourish from around 500BC and start to spread to Europe probably only around 100 BC...Germanic influence we may assign to Goths, hence probably to times after 1AD..

    as Baltic areas were not affected during the big movements of people, their language evolved from Balto-Slavic in natural way...so to estimate the time of split you should not look at differences between Baltic and Slavic but you need to estimate time needed for Balto-Slavic to transform to Baltic languages......

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    I do not say Slavic = Baltic... those are modern languages...
    I say that Slavic and Baltic languages are evolution from same language that is in modern linguistics called Balto-Slavic

    in fact, Baltic languages are closer to that reconstructed Balto-Slavic language
    perhaps due to large influence of e.g. Germanic and Sarmatian in recent development of Slavic languages...


    originally they were same people
    i say that *uend and *suerb was just used as a name for border lands of R1a people....

    note also term Siberia on east most end.....



    its not the same because Baltic languages are closer to Balto-Slavic than Slavic languages...
    it means that Balto-Slavic stayed more or less preserved in Baltic countries while it was somewhat modified in Slavic people due to influence of other languages, perhaps Germanic and Sarmatian....

    well, if you do not trust me ask linguists...

    essentially this additional influence that made Slavic was likely carried by I2a-din people...as Balts do not have i2a-din and other people derived from Balto-Slavic people do...
    since baltic people where there centuries before the slavic...call yourself baltic then

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    maybe the split was earlier maybe it was not... we do not know that... but even today big part of vocabulary is shared between Baltic and Slavic languages... i think difference is comparable to different branches of Germanic or Italic languages... and e.g. in Italic languages that split was in relatively near past...due to latin being imposed across Roman empire...
    No, the difference between Slavic languages is like difference of Germanic and Italic branches. The difference between Baltic and Slavic is like difference between English and French.
    So who knows, maybe they both were never the same language, but had only similar influences from time to time, like English and French.

    that is not the point of my posts....

    i claim that *uend and *suerb were originally used by same people to name the part of those people who lived on border lands (India, Sarbans, Wends, Serbs, Siberia, Venedae).... that could have been around 1000 BC or 1AD... it doesnot really matter...
    *uend being designation for border people means it was not used just for Baltic people but also for other border people such as e.g. Sorbs (also called Wends & Lusatians)
    What border you are talking about?
    Besides Wends is Germanic exonym and can describe Slavic, Baltic, Celtic, Finnic peoples. The strangers the wanderers.

    What about Slavic tribe Vieleti? Doesn't it carries more resemblance to Veneti than anything else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post

    What border you are talking about?
    Besides Wends is Germanic exonym and can describe Slavic, Baltic, Celtic, Finnic peoples. The strangers the wanderers.

    What about Slavic tribe Vieleti? Doesn't it carries more resemblance to Veneti than anything else?
    *uend is PIE word it has same meaning as *suerb..it means to turn...
    I notice that two names systematically appear in border lands of R1a spread... first in India, than in Pakistan Sarbans, also in Siberia, in Venedae, in Wends (Sorbs), in Serbs.....that cannot be by accident.... they never appear in core areas of R1a spread...only on its borders...

    similar thing with using generic name for border lands still exist in Slavic countries (Ukraine as originally border land of Russians, Krajina as name for west most settlements of Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia, and east most part in Serbia, krajina comes from "kraj" = end... but isn't english end also derived from PIE *uend?)

    note also Celtic word *windo = white and usage in Slavic countries (also by iranians) of white colour to designate west border lands.... white Serbia, white Croatia, white Russia (Belarus)....
    read my posts above,,,

    earlies historical document about Serbs and Croats De administrando imperio states that they have settled Balkan from lands of white Serbia and white Croatia and that there they were called white... but I think perhaps they were not called white, they were called *uend = border people and Byzantine emperor who wrote De Administrando Imperio interprets this with Celtic *windo = white knowing also that their lands had preffix "white" (which in fact meant west)... you do not call parts of two different border land tribes using same name "westerners", but they are both easily called "border people"... in modern slavic they would be called Krajišnici...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Sorry How yes no, but you are dreaming. Your analogies reminds me the ones of Dublin.
    Scythian was an Iranic language, with as much similarities to Slavic, as Latin or Celtic. Your connection to Slavic is through IE connection and not by protoslavic, as you implied it might have been an Iranian language.

    Here is a nice compilation of Scythians, Sarmatians and Alans names:
    http://sarmatianinthesca.blogspot.ca...nal-names.html

    Surely, they were written in Greek and Latin, but as you can see they contain no slavic sounding names, not even close.

    I think that Sarmatians were not Slavs but a ruling class that occupied slavic lands. They were the warriors/nomads/horsemen. In contrast Slavs were the working class, the farmers. Maybe not that noble and romantic, but the pillar of economy and strength.
    After 1,000 years or so, of Sarmatian ruling, Sarmatians got slavinized, and just before slavic expansion all Sarmatians were speaking Slavic. This includes R1a and I2a main slavic groups.

    According to linguistic experts Sarmatian names sound Iranic.
    Scythians and Sarmatians didnot necesserily speak same language....
    Greek mythology states that Sarmatians origin from group of Scythians intermarrying Amazone woman...
    now language is determined by mothers especially when it comes to Amazones...

    while for Sarmatian it is widely accepted to have been iranian, we do not really know almost anything about Scythian language....
    one of the rare historical data about their words come from Herodotous

    The Greek historian Herodotus provides another source of Scythian; he reports that the Scythians called the Amazons Oiorpata, and explains the name as a compound of oior, meaning "man", and pata, meaning "to kill" (Hist. 4,110).
    (from wikipedia)

    oior = man
    pata = kill

    but I don't think it was about man killers, but about soldier killers

    in serbian and i guess similar in other Slavic languages

    bojar = medieval free man who serves as warrior - warrior class (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar )
    derived from boj = battle
    modern derivations are: vojnik= soldier and vojvoda = commander rank (derived from "boj"(battle) + "voditi" (to lead)

    potući = to devastate in battle
    potamaniti = to exterminate
    potopiti = to drawn, to send boat to bottom of the sea
    potpaliti = to set to fire
    patosirati = to kick someone so hard that he falls on ground (e.g. in boxing)

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    Scythians and Sarmatians didnot necesserily speak same language....
    Greek mythology states that Sarmatians origin from group of Scythians intermarrying Amazone woman...
    now language is determined by mothers especially when it comes to Amazones...

    while for Sarmatian it is widely accepted to have been iranian, we do not really now almost anything about Scythian language....
    one of the rare historical data about their words come from Herodotous


    (from wikipedia)

    oior = man
    pata = kill

    but I don't think it was about man killers, but about soldier killers

    in serbian and i guess similar in other Slavic languages

    bojar = medieval free man who serves as warrior (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar )
    derived from boj = battle
    modern derivations are: vojnik= soldier and vojvoda = commander rank (derived from "boj"(battle) + "voditi" (to lead)

    potući = to devastate in battle
    potamaniti = to exterminate
    potopiti = to drawn, to send boat to bottom of the sea
    potpaliti = to set to fire
    patosirati = to kick someone so hard that he falls on ground (e.g. in box)
    all languages are from mothers, its called lengoa materna ( mother tongue) because fathers did not "hung around" with families in ancient societies. Paternal language only arosed due to nationality, when the state would direct/teach you on what language you could speak

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    No, the difference between Slavic languages is like difference of Germanic and Italic branches. The difference between Baltic and Slavic is like difference between English and French.
    So who knows, maybe they both were never the same language, but had only similar influences from time to time, like English and French.

    that is not the point of my posts....


    What border you are talking about?
    Besides Wends is Germanic exonym and can describe Slavic, Baltic, Celtic, Finnic peoples. The strangers the wanderers.

    What about Slavic tribe Vieleti? Doesn't it carries more resemblance to Veneti than anything else?
    vieleti as per below

    Northern European cluster (L265 - R1a1a1i2) Example is cluster G or L365 - R1a1a1i2 (also called Pomeranian) popular in Pomerania, Baltic coast of Germany (former Abodrite and Vieleti areas), former Eastern Prussia, Lithuania.

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    on thread about Veneti/Wends/Venedae le brok pointed out that he read many historical articles in polish in relation with deciphering Vistula Venedi.and that various authors link Venedi with Slavic, Baltic, East Germanic, Celtic, Dacian and that name seems to be used for different people and on different locations....

    my reply was that it was just a generic name of R1a (and perhaps of other PIE speakers for border land people... and i also suggested that those people are often genetically mixed and naturally bilingual and have used as an example another krajina (border land) area in east Serbia where many people origin from Vlachs or mixed Serb-Vlachs and see themselves as Serbs but speak as mother language both languages...

    now, I wonder whether Scordisci/Serdi are also such border people.... but border between whom?


    historic influence of Scordisci goes originally from Scordus mountains (southmost Serbia (south Kosovo) Macedonia & albania border) later from Morava river valley in central Serbia all the way to Slovakia and Bohemia where Celts live......

    they were borderline between satem speaking and centum speaking worlds...

    Illyrus, Celtus and Gallas are brothers in Greek mythology...
    so Illyrians may have been alike to Celts....

    Scordisci would be borderline between centum speaking Veneti, Celts, Illyrians west of them and satem PIE speaking Thracians, Dacians, Pannonianson east of them. in my opinion those satem speaking IE people are proto-Balto Slavic ....plus on south border is first with Greeks later with Dardanians

    as border line people they would be likely of mixed origin and bilingual....
    Danube is natural border hence Scordisci live along Danube.... where Danube enters satem speaking areas their spread continues not along Danube but along border of satem speaking people...hence where is central Serbia now...

    so various historians see their language as Celtic, Illyrian, thracian...
    but it was all....they were border people....


    on east from them is R1a dominant area, on south J2 and E1b area, on west R1b area....

    these border people are reason for I2a layer glued along south borders of R1a in Europe... along Danube and in Carpathians (Carpathians became new border after Roman empire broke over Danube)




    so much time passed but nothing changed regarding Serbia...

    Saint Sava founder of Serbian orthodox church is known to have claimed that it is destiny of Serbs to be west on east and east on west....I would say - border people...

    border people are bridge between worlds in peace times, but also the ones who are sacrificed first and the most in times when equilibrium of power between surrounding blocks is disturbed...

    in cold war, Yugoslavia was border land... it was west to east and east to west....it was bridge between worlds...which brought her lot of political and economic benefit...when equilibrium of power was disturbed and east block collapsed, it was set to fire.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    Scythians and Sarmatians didnot necesserily speak same language....
    Greek mythology states that Sarmatians origin from group of Scythians intermarrying Amazone woman...
    now language is determined by mothers especially when it comes to Amazones...

    while for Sarmatian it is widely accepted to have been iranian, we do not really know almost anything about Scythian language....
    one of the rare historical data about their words come from Herodotous


    (from wikipedia)

    oior = man
    pata = kill

    but I don't think it was about man killers, but about soldier killers

    in serbian and i guess similar in other Slavic languages

    bojar = medieval free man who serves as warrior - warrior class (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar )
    derived from boj = battle
    modern derivations are: vojnik= soldier and vojvoda = commander rank (derived from "boj"(battle) + "voditi" (to lead)

    potući = to devastate in battle
    potamaniti = to exterminate
    potopiti = to drawn, to send boat to bottom of the sea
    potpaliti = to set to fire
    patosirati = to kick someone so hard that he falls on ground (e.g. in boxing)
    The point was that the Scathian, Sarmatian and Alan names didn't resemble anything slavic. We should have something like Mirko, Boleslav, Bolek, Voy, Slav, Vladimir, Vlad, Premko, Leshek, Vit, Siemovit, Domacaj, Semibor, Semimir, Radoslav, Budzimir, Lubomir
    http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%99...owia%C5%84skie


    potući = to devastate in battle
    potamaniti = to exterminate
    potopiti = to drawn, to send boat to bottom of the sea
    potpaliti = to set to fire
    In all of these po or pot are prepositions, the rest is the root. It denotes done function. What's left is tamaniti, topiti, paliti. Not sure of pato in patosirati.
    Most likely "pata" is the root in Scythian.

    Not convincing, you have to refresh your Serbian. :)

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