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Thread: 7000 year old human bones found in Spain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Now with the new nomenclature I'm still a bit confused. At least, I2a1a (I2a1 before) most likely originated in the Pyrenees. The previous clade could have originated in the Balkans, and it could partly give an explanation for territories which nowadays are high in Southern and have sizeable amounts of I2a1 variants (Southern France, Iberia & Sardinia specially). Worth to mention that even nowadays there are small pockets of I2a1 variants in the UK and even in Ireland, where it's quite unexpected. Note that the Southern element is very significant there too.

    Recently was posted in another thread the possibility that Haplogroup E is not a native African Haplogroup, but Paleo-Eurasian (likely from the Arabian Peninsula). Dienekes' wrote about this and the Out of Arabia hipothesis regarding modern human origins. The main point was that most Sub-Saharan populations (except Pygmies and a few San from Namibia I think), seem to have an afiliation with West Eurasians, and Haplogroup E could be the reason according to him. So, in other words, E as whole could be linked to the Southern element as well, although I must clarify that the mentioned afiliation it's only noticeable in genetic maps at the moment. For instance, in those maps we can see groups like Yoruba deviating towards West Eurasians, being the Pygmies and probably a few San the most extreme African pole, but when you run an admixture experiment, the same Yoruba samples come out 100% African or something like this...maybe it's due to a limitation of the Admixture program or there should be better represented populations in the dataset. Let's wait.
    Aside from I2A2a-Isles (which seems to be a paleolithic British clade), I2A2A has been associated variably with bronze-age Eastern Celtic (less favoured now from what I am reading) and Germanic (more favoured now). Non -isles in Britain probably has to do with historic Germanic population shifts into Britain, of either Saxon, Viking, or Norman (or all three) blood. Despite the fact that Lower Saxony has the highest concentration in all of Europe of I2A2A, I would speculate that the Saxons weren't majority I2A2A because of the relative small amount of that haplotype in Great Britain which seems more likely to correlate with a smaller population movement, as in the Vikings or Normans, unlike the mass migration of the Saxons to England.

    I favour the Norman idea as there are pockets of I2A2A in areas where the Normans historically occupied in Southern Italy, as well as in Normandy itself in France.

    Edit: Completely screwed up with I2A1A being misrepresented as I2A2A. Changed to represent that, but now it is pretty much irrelevant to the prior discussion. Very sorry!

    Basically, disregard this.
    Last edited by JFWR; 06-07-12 at 05:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    Despite the fact that Lower Saxony has the highest concentration in all of Europe of I2A1A
    ¿Where did you get this info? I've never heard about this.

    Also, I2a1 variants appeared in Neolithic burials at least a couple of times, which is important considering all ancient samples we have so far. So the expansion started surely long before the bronze age IMO.

    I2a1a is estimated to be 8000 years old aprox I think, hence, there's much chance for significant pre-bronze age migrations.
    Last edited by Knovas; 05-07-12 at 16:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    ¿Where did you get this info? I've never heard about this.

    Also, I2a1 variants appeared in Neolithic burials at least a couple of times, which is important considering all ancient samples we have so far. So the expansion started surely long before the bronze age IMO.

    I2a1a is estimated to be 8000 years old aprox I think, hence, there's much chance for significant pre-bronze age migrations.
    National Geographic Genographic Project. Germany is the only place in all of Europe where I2A2A has a higher than 10 percent concentration of the haplogroup. The specific area is Lower Saxony. See this map of M223 distribution, which peaks in Lower Saxony.

    w71l3m.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    ¿Where did you get this info? I've never heard about this.

    Also, I2a1 variants appeared in Neolithic burials at least a couple of times, which is important considering all ancient samples we have so far. So the expansion started surely long before the bronze age IMO.

    I2a1a is estimated to be 8000 years old aprox I think, hence, there's much chance for significant pre-bronze age migrations.
    Duke, my HUGE mistake: I meant I2A2A, not I2A1A. -So- sorry. That was a huge mistake on my end. Big blunder. Sorry.

    Disregard my I2A2A stuff here. I'll edit my previous post for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    It looks like the Southern admixture is extra european.
    On the other hand, how long should an admixture have to be present in europe to be considered "european"?
    Anyway, assuming it is entirely of neolithic near-eastern origin, then half of these southern farmer ancestors of the Brana guys must have converted to hunting and gathering stone age. But such anti-development usually does not happen in history. Especially farming represents an opportunity (and pressure) to accumulate wealth, status and exploitation of humans, which is irresistible. Further, the extinction of the Mammoths possibly further pushed hunter-gatherers of SW europe to adopt farming. Hence I believe there were near-eastern humans migrating to europe already during the paleolithic, such that the Brana samples represent the blend of two different hunter-gatherer populations ("Fennobaltic"+"Basque"; Tardenoisian or Maglemosian?). I do not propose that the Basque language is necessarily paleolithic, it could be already neolithic, just the population mostly descend from former near-eastern hunter-gatherers who later became farmers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epipaleolithic
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combe-Capelle

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    On the other hand, how long should an admixture have to be present in europe to be considered "european"?
    Anyway, assuming it is entirely of neolithic near-eastern origin, then half of these southern farmer ancestors of the Brana guys must have converted to hunting and gathering stone age. But such anti-development usually does not happen in history. Especially farming represents an opportunity (and pressure) to accumulate wealth, status and exploitation of humans, which is irresistible. Further, the extinction of the Mammoths possibly further pushed hunter-gatherers of SW europe to adopt farming. Hence I believe there were near-eastern humans migrating to europe already during the paleolithic, such that the Brana samples represent the blend of two different hunter-gatherer populations ("Fennobaltic"+"Basque"; Tardenoisian or Maglemosian?). I do not propose that the Basque language is necessarily paleolithic, it could be already neolithic, just the population mostly descend from former near-eastern hunter-gatherers who later became farmers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epipaleolithic
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combe-Capelle

    Southern Europe admixture is either south east european or near east. In a recent thread I made the hypothesis that the first wave of farming (begining with Sesklo in 6850 bc) brought South East Europe haplogroups to the west (I2a, G2a). I believe that the LBK especially brought to the west the local haplogroups of Hungary (where it started) and not Anatolian one.

    But where the "local" Neolithic haplogroups of South East Europe (I2a, G2a, EV13) native to the area or brought from the east? I don't know. Dienekes seems to believe that major shifts happened in the middle east during the Neolithic. If I'm right he thinks that the local admixture of the first farmers in fertile crescent was more "Mediterranean" and that the West Asian component is a later input in the area. (caused by the Black sea deluge?).

    There are multiple scenarios for the southern Europe admixture in Europe:
    1) I2a and G2a are intrusive to Europe => "Southern Europe" is indeed extra european
    2) I2a and G2a are South East Europe natives=> "Southern Europe" is European
    3) I2a is native to South East Europe, but not G2a=> "Southern Europe" is partially European
    4) The brana guys are intrusives to Iberia=> Southern Europe admixture was already in Iberia during the Mesolithic

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Southern Europe admixture is either south east european or near east. In a recent thread I made the hypothesis that the first wave of farming (begining with Sesklo in 6850 bc) brought South East Europe haplogroups to the west (I2a, G2a). I believe that the LBK especially brought to the west the local haplogroups of Hungary (where it started) and not Anatolian one.

    But where the "local" Neolithic haplogroups of South East Europe (I2a, G2a, EV13) native to the area or brought from the east? I don't know. Dienekes seems to believe that major shifts happened in the middle east during the Neolithic. If I'm right he thinks that the local admixture of the first farmers in fertile crescent was more "Mediterranean" and that the West Asian component is a later input in the area. (caused by the Black sea deluge?).

    There are multiple scenarios for the southern Europe admixture in Europe:
    1) I2a and G2a are intrusive to Europe => "Southern Europe" is indeed extra european
    2) I2a and G2a are South East Europe natives=> "Southern Europe" is European
    3) I2a is native to South East Europe, but not G2a=> "Southern Europe" is partially European
    4) The brana guys are intrusives to Iberia=> Southern Europe admixture was already in Iberia during the Mesolithic
    I'll think later more thoroughly about your neolithic theory.
    Currently I still believe that Y-HG I is paleolithic south european Atlantic_med admixture, which is modal in Iberia and also still reaches 20% in Maroc and Algeria. The North_euro component on the other hand is extremely unlikely to be related to Cro-Magnons in my opinion, especially if the following information is true:

    "Other studies confirm that the Cro-Magnon (Mechta) population had been living in North Africa for a very long time. According to recent genetic research published in 2004, part of the modern population displays a genetic marker that is characteristic of a transition from Cro-Magnon (Mechta) type to the Mediterranean type, and is restricted to North Africa. This suggests that an expansion of the Mediterranean group took place in North Africa around 10,500 years ago and spread to neighboring populations. What anthropological studies of prehistoric peoples demonstrate is that the Cro-Magnon (Mechta)-type people were the sole inhabitants of the Mediterranean and North Africa regions, including the Canary Islands, prior to 10,500 years ago. "

    http://humanpast.net/evolution/evolution11k.htm

    (I hope this site is serious, at least they are citing scientific literature, which I haven't read (yet) by myself.)

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    One additional remark: Y-HG I occurs in NW africa as well where non-european Atlantic_med is strong (20%). Else it occurs outside of europe only in Kurdistan, which is not too surprising if the theory of mediterranean Cro-Magnon diffusion is true, as the Atlantic_med admixture trail also reaches the near east. The Combe-Capelle skulls were very different though...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What it's clear checking the Fst distances, is that the Southern admixture from the K7b, or other similar components sometimes called "Middle East" or "Mediterranean", all represent some sort of ancient humans who were completely West Eurasian, doesn't matter if they originated out of Europe or were already in Europe. I personally don't see the point into calling those components Middle Eastern, since what is identified today as Middle Eastern is a composite of influences from West Asia and East Africa, superposed to the Southern or Mediterranean substratum.

    So my thoughts are that it's possible that during the Mesolithic "Atlantic_Baltic" (or something similar, don't forget that modern genotypes have their limitations) was modal in Europe, but, if we could test ancient Cro-magnons using the same pattern, I wouldn't be surprised if the result comes out largely "Southern" or "Mediterranean".

    By the way, actually the K10a experiment is much more informative than K12b, which as I said many times, tends to cause confusion due to overlap between clusters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    One additional remark: Y-HG I occurs in NW africa as well where non-european Atlantic_med is strong (20%). Else it occurs outside of europe only in Kurdistan, which is not too surprising if the theory of mediterranean Cro-Magnon diffusion is true, as the Atlantic_med admixture trail also reaches the near east.
    I don't think that this is right. Where are the NW African Haplogroup I samples? Do we know their subclades? Also, in addition to Kurds (who seem to have an interesting I1/I2a2a mixture), it also reaches Armenians (I2c)... but all of these expansions are apparently very recent. Not Cro-Magnon diffusion, but from what I've observed, later European diffusion (like, Iron Age at the earliest for most of it). I think it's pretty obvious that Atlantic_med stretches outside the bounds of Haplogroup I's current distribution, and is very distinct from Haplogroup I's pre-Neolithic distribution.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The fingerprints of Cro-Magnons in North Africa are more evident in the Maternal lines. Certainly haplogroup U6 must have something to do with this, I think it's defenitely a Paleolithic remmant in North Africa. On the other side, we know that Y-linages can change fairly rapidly, so it's not surprising to me that "I" samples are not significant there nowadays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I don't think that this is right. Where are the NW African Haplogroup I samples? Do we know their subclades? Also, in addition to Kurds (who seem to have an interesting I1/I2a2a mixture), it also reaches Armenians (I2c)... but all of these expansions are apparently very recent. Not Cro-Magnon diffusion, but from what I've observed, later European diffusion (like, Iron Age at the earliest for most of it). I think it's pretty obvious that Atlantic_med stretches outside the bounds of Haplogroup I's current distribution, and is very distinct from Haplogroup I's pre-Neolithic distribution.
    The HG I traces are admittedly minimal in NW Africa, and I don't know their subclades. Possibly they got replaced by an african HG (E1b) in Africa, like they were diminished by R1b in West Europe, except of few remnants.

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    The Mechta and generally speaking "Cro magnon" Y haplogroups could have completely disappear today. Those haplogroups could have been F*, IJk*, IJ* etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    By the way, actually the K10a experiment is much more informative than K12b, which as I said many times, tends to cause confusion due to overlap between clusters.
    But K10a does not look so different from K12b and the main conclusions remain the same. Only Gedrosian and Caucasus got merged, but this is not surprising due to the lower resolution of K12b.

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    Specially the Caucassus component of the K12b run shifts a lot of results. Among Caucasian populations works well compared to West Asian admixture (most similar), but when you check Sardinians and other Southwest Europeans who usually don't get any West Asian or very little, the discordance it's quite evident. Obviously the component is not the same as West Asian, but there's a clear similarity which just fails in its expected distribution. K10a results make, by far, much more sense when checking West Asian, and goes according to other experiments done before. No confusion in general terms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I1 could indeed make the Atlantic Med admixture in Scandinavia. However, what is the predecessor of this neolithic I1? ... I* ?

    Below, I propose this scenario:

    1) N and R1a (Northern and eastern Hunter gatherers)
    2) R1b (western Hunter gatherers)
    3) Em81 (some Iberians and French hunter gatherers)
    4) G2a, I2a, EV13 (Southern and central european Neolithic farmers)
    5) I1 (Scandinavian Neolithic farmers)
    6) J2, G2a (Bronze age invaders)



    Now that we know that Hunter gatherers and Neolithic farmers had different admixtures and knowing that only Neolithic farmers had their Y haplogroup tested , I would not be surprised if the Hunter gatherers Y dna turned out to be R1b and/or R1a. The fact that we didn't find R1b in Neoithic samples so far doesn't indicate that R1b wasn"t already in Europe at that time but rather that R1b wasn't the haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers carrying the Southern admixture
    One more remark regarding 2): Despite R1b certainly isn't really upper-paleolithic as believed earlier, I agree that some of it could have came to europe bringing some of todays North_euro admixture from the east to europe yet during late the paleolithic, say 9000 years ago (Something like early pre-IE eurasian hunter-gatherer migrations along the glaciers edges.). At that time, Y-genetics in the Urals and central Asia was certainly more differentiated than today. So yes, I also think there is a small possibility that the Brana people already could have had some R1b or R1a, as they are half North_euro.

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