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Thread: IJ*-samples in large study Iran

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    IJ*-samples in large study Iran

    There's a lot of news these days, it seems;
    Dienekes has posted about a new study of Y-chromosomes in Iran: http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/...iation-in.html

    There are IJ*-samples found in it. That was not observed before anywhere, I believe.

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    Yes, It's the first time. Very interesting, however, I think it doesn't prove at all that IJ* originated in West Asia. Dienekes' says the finding is consistent with this, but it's too much of an assumption when checking modern samples instead of ancient ones.

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    I wonder how close/far the IJ*-samples are to each other. Do they share a common ancestor as far back as I with J or only "recent" like with I1. That may tell us more.

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    Awesome find. The modern center of diversity of IJ can now be said to be in West Asia, rather than split between Europe and West Asia, as had been the case when I and J were the only known subclades of IJ.

    I was a bit worried, based only on the table, that they hadn't tested for J SNPs, only J1 and J2, meaning that this could have actually been J*, which exists. But reading the paper itself, I see that they did test P209, meaning that this IJ* is the real deal. Although, I wonder if this IJ* shares any SNPs with the root of either I or J... that would tell us which of the 3 now known IJ subclades is the outlier.

    It's possible that previous studies may have counted IJ* as F due to a lack of SNP testing. But the SNP testing in this particular study is really impressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sennevini View Post
    I wonder how close/far the IJ*-samples are to each other. Do they share a common ancestor as far back as I with J or only "recent" like with I1. That may tell us more.
    It's disappointing that their STR and age analyses only extended to J1, J2a, R1a, and R1b. IJ* would have been the most interesting, but they only wanted to look at "major" lineages.

    Ah, well, I shouldn't complain too much. Great study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Yes, It's the first time. Very interesting, however, I think it doesn't prove at all that IJ* originated in West Asia. Dienekes' says the finding is consistent with this, but it's too much of an assumption when checking modern samples instead of ancient ones.
    IJ was not found anywhere else, not in modern nor in ancient samples.

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    What does it say that they have found only IJ in modern populations in Iran, not ancient ones? One would envision that ancient Y-DNA would demonstrate IJ, but without it, does this imply that IJ came in later?

    Iran has had some historical invasions. Macedonian Greeks under Alexander come to mind. Might these have brought IJ if there are no examples of ancient IJ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    What does it say that they have found only IJ in modern populations in Iran, not ancient ones? One would envision that ancient Y-DNA would demonstrate IJ, but without it, does this imply that IJ came in later

    Iran has had some historical invasions. Macedonian Greeks under Alexander come to mind. Might these have brought IJ if there are no examples of ancient IJ?

    There isnt enough researches made on ancient DNA in Iran yet I highly doubt that the "IJ" might have come with Macedonian Greeks. if this was the case you would expect to find "IJ" in other areas conquered by them too especially where they came from. I also believe that IJ is very young and Nordvedt I think also dates I only some 2-3 thousand years back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    There isnt enough researches made on ancient DNA in Iran yet I highly doubt that the "IJ" might have come with Macedonian Greeks. if this was the case you would expect to find "IJ" in other areas conquered by them too especially where they came from. I also believe that IJ is very young and Nordvedt I think also dates I only some 2-3 thousand years back.
    IJ is the source clade for I and J, so it cannot be young. I was in Europe 30,000 years ago. IJ is at least 40,000 years old.

    I would very much like to see the results of early Iranian Y-DNA samples. It would be exceedingly peculiar if the absence of IJ continued.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    IJ is the source clade for I and J, so it cannot be young. I was in Europe 30,000 years ago. IJ is at least 40,000 years old.

    I would very much like to see the results of early Iranian Y-DNA samples. It would be exceedingly peculiar if the absence of IJ continued.
    sorry my fault I meant I is young not IJ. I dont know how you came to the suggestion I might be 30000 years old in Europe since this Haplogroup was only found from Neolthic times

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    sorry my fault I meant I is young not IJ. I dont know how you came to the suggestion I might be 30000 years old in Europe since this Haplogroup was only found from Neolthic times
    http://genome.cshlp.org/content/earl...72008.abstract - Estimates 22.2 k.a. With a confidence interval between 15.3-30.0 ka.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez - Estimates 23±7.7 ky.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...s_europe.shtml - Estimates 23,000 BC.

    Maybe you are thinking some form of I1? I is associated with Cro-Magnon in Europe and the Gravettian culture. I is not neolithic, but paleolithic.

    Nordtveldt's hypotheses, if these are his hypotheses, are wildly off other research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    Nordtveldt's hypotheses, if these are his hypotheses, are wildly off other research.
    Those aren't his hypotheses, he estimates Haplogroup I at ~22,000 YBP. Alan is confusing Haplogroup I as a whole with some subclade of I (maybe I2a-Din?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    http://genome.cshlp.org/content/earl...72008.abstract - Estimates 22.2 k.a. With a confidence interval between 15.3-30.0 ka.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez - Estimates 23±7.7 ky.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...s_europe.shtml - Estimates 23,000 BC.

    Maybe you are thinking some form of I1? I is associated with Cro-Magnon in Europe and the Gravettian culture. I is not neolithic, but paleolithic.

    Nordtveldt's hypotheses, if these are his hypotheses, are wildly off other research.
    These are older studies and they estimated the arrivel of I in that time period while there was no real data of I found in ancient Europe. So Just estimation. While later all burials belonging to Haplogroup I where fond in Neolithic sides and always together with G2a (as far as I know).


    Those aren't his hypotheses, he estimates Haplogroup I at ~22,000 YBP. Alan is confusing Haplogroup I as a whole with some subclade of I (maybe I2a-Din?).
    Yes it seems I am really confusing something. I thought to have red somewhere that you mentioned Haplogroup I is believed to be 2-3000 years old. However do you think the presence of Haplogroup I can be dated back to 22000 years or did it arrive in Europe during Neolithic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Yes it seems I am really confusing something. I thought to have red somewhere that you mentioned Haplogroup I is believed to be 2-3000 years old. However do you think the presence of Haplogroup I can be dated back to 22000 years or did it arrive in Europe during Neolithic?
    I think Haplogroup I probably formed in Europe in the Paleolithic. I base that on the fact that we haven't been able to place the center of diversity of any of the ancient subclades to be outside of Europe. In fact, the highest diversity of modern Haplogroup I currently sampled falls along the Rhine and along the Atlantic Fringe, with maybe a slightly smaller diversity spike around the Elba or just east of it. The Neolithic Haplogroup I samples we've acquired from ancient DNA have been fully formed I2a1a, which STR testing of modern samples has helped confirm was the earliest subclade to expand with the arrival of the Neolithic. Unfortunately, we don't have any ancient YDNA sampled from Paleolithic or Mesolithic Europe yet.

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    Origins of I

    Nordvedt wrote:

    The huge European y haplogroup I1 seems to have a TMRCA of only about 4500 years. Yet, our best present knowledge is that the y tree branch line leading to the I1 founder parted ways from the rest of the haplogroup I tree over 20,000 years ago. We have no evidence right now of any intermediate branches coming off this pre-I1 ancestral line and reaching the present --- a "barren" 16,000 year interval of a branch line hovering on the edge of extinction.
    The challenge is to find the haplotype today with the greatest GD or variance as measured from the modal I1 haplotype --- about as good a candidate as we have for the I1 MRCA's founding haplotype. This haplotype must be S31- but M170+; in other words I(xI2) This does not guarantee the haplotype will then be a pre-I1 branch from the ancestral line to I1, it could be an I* haplotype instead. But such a haplotype, I(xI2), could be tested for a number of the many, many snps we have right now which we know are spread randomly along that 16,000 year line. If it is positive for any of them, it qualifies.
    Probably some rule is needed to exclude major mutational jumps in which some STR added or lost a large number of repeats in one process. I have not figured out yet how to state such a rule.
    Since every haplotype in our databases is not snp tested (actually, most are not), I'd suggest only considering haplotypes with DYS455 = 8 (and maybe 7 and 9) at first. But look out for haplotypes from an African haplogroup which also has 8 at DYs455; I think some supplementary filter will also be needed.
    Do you have a candidate haplotype for this search?”

    "Edge of extinction" - this could mean hg I1 could have been carried by a small group of men anywhere in Europe or outside, but most likely the Balkans. Klyosov's data supports this too. He believes hg I originated on the Russian plain over 40 thousand years ago, but it's bearers mostly underwent a population bottleneck 6000-4000 years ago. His data shows the following for I2 sub-clades:

    Haplotype trees for all three
    haplogroups listed above are more uniform ones, and their “age” is 5600±620
    years (I2a1), 5700±590 (I2b1) and 5000±630 (I2b2)

    In another paper he writes:

    The value for TSCA seen in the populations discussed
    above are quite typical of other European I1 populations. For the Northwest European/Scandinavian
    (Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland) combined series
    of haplotypes the TSCA equals to 3375±345 ybp. For
    the Central and South Europe (Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, France, Italy, Switzerland, Spain) it equals to
    3425±350 ybp, for Germany 3225±330 ybp, for the
    East European countries (Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Lithuania) it is equal to 3225±360 ybp (to be
    published). It is of interest that even Middle Eastern I1
    haplotypes (Jordan, Lebanon, and presumably Jewish
    ones) descend from a common ancestor who lived at
    about the same time, 3475±480 ybp





    So it seems I is indeed Paleolithic in Europe, but the Paleolithic didn't affect it's current population structure because of the bottleneck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkk View Post
    Nordvedt wrote:

    The huge European y haplogroup I1 seems to have a TMRCA of only about 4500 years. Yet, our best present knowledge is that the y tree branch line leading to the I1 founder parted ways from the rest of the haplogroup I tree over 20,000 years ago. We have no evidence right now of any intermediate branches coming off this pre-I1 ancestral line and reaching the present --- a "barren" 16,000 year interval of a branch line hovering on the edge of extinction.
    The challenge is to find the haplotype today with the greatest GD or variance as measured from the modal I1 haplotype --- about as good a candidate as we have for the I1 MRCA's founding haplotype. This haplotype must be S31- but M170+; in other words I(xI2) This does not guarantee the haplotype will then be a pre-I1 branch from the ancestral line to I1, it could be an I* haplotype instead. But such a haplotype, I(xI2), could be tested for a number of the many, many snps we have right now which we know are spread randomly along that 16,000 year line. If it is positive for any of them, it qualifies.
    Probably some rule is needed to exclude major mutational jumps in which some STR added or lost a large number of repeats in one process. I have not figured out yet how to state such a rule.
    Since every haplotype in our databases is not snp tested (actually, most are not), I'd suggest only considering haplotypes with DYS455 = 8 (and maybe 7 and 9) at first. But look out for haplotypes from an African haplogroup which also has 8 at DYs455; I think some supplementary filter will also be needed.
    Do you have a candidate haplotype for this search?”

    "Edge of extinction" - this could mean hg I1 could have been carried by a small group of men anywhere in Europe or outside, but most likely the Balkans. Klyosov's data supports this too. He believes hg I originated on the Russian plain over 40 thousand years ago, but it's bearers mostly underwent a population bottleneck 6000-4000 years ago. His data shows the following for I2 sub-clades:

    Haplotype trees for all three
    haplogroups listed above are more uniform ones, and their “age” is 5600±620
    years (I2a1), 5700±590 (I2b1) and 5000±630 (I2b2)

    In another paper he writes:

    The value for TSCA seen in the populations discussed
    above are quite typical of other European I1 populations. For the Northwest European/Scandinavian
    (Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland) combined series
    of haplotypes the TSCA equals to 3375±345 ybp. For
    the Central and South Europe (Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, France, Italy, Switzerland, Spain) it equals to
    3425±350 ybp, for Germany 3225±330 ybp, for the
    East European countries (Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Lithuania) it is equal to 3225±360 ybp (to be
    published). It is of interest that even Middle Eastern I1
    haplotypes (Jordan, Lebanon, and presumably Jewish
    ones) descend from a common ancestor who lived at
    about the same time, 3475±480 ybp





    So it seems I is indeed Paleolithic in Europe, but the Paleolithic didn't affect it's current population structure because of the bottleneck.
    You're confusing I1 and I. I1 is different from I. I1 has a population bottleneck. This doesn't consider I or I2.

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    You're confusing I1 and I. I1 is different from I. I1 has a population bottleneck. This doesn't consider I or I2.
    ...It did. I quoted TRMCA dates for some of the major I2 subclades, and they came out to about 5500 years before present. So maybe this lineage too went through a bottleneck?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkk View Post
    ...It did. I quoted TRMCA dates for some of the major I2 subclades, and they came out to about 5500 years before present. So maybe this lineage too went through a bottleneck?
    The difference is that there are a lot more I2 lineages. I deal with the different I lineages that expanded beginning about 6000 years ago or later in my Paleolithic Remnants Map. I relied largely on Nordtvedt's date estimations, and other research for diversity analyses, so it's not just copying Nordtvedt, either. Note that there's 1 dot for I1, and 27 dots for I2 (and counting... it's a work in progress that I haven't updated in a little while).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkk View Post
    ...It did. I quoted TRMCA dates for some of the major I2 subclades, and they came out to about 5500 years before present. So maybe this lineage too went through a bottleneck?
    Potentially. I had heard other studies that placed I2 a bit earlier.

    Sparkey, you know a lot about I. What do you say for the ages of I1, I2, et cetera?

    Edit: Ha! Speak of the devil. I post a minute later and Sparkey already got me...

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    So I might be Paleolithic yet the subject was more "IJ*" I think, and if I am not mistaken was only found in Iran so far. So we can basically say, "IJ" arrived in Europe from Iran most probably and later developed to I*.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    So I might be Paleolithic yet the subject was more "IJ*" I think, and if I am not mistaken was only found in Iran so far. So we can basically say, "IJ" arrived in Europe from Iran most probably and later developed to I*.
    That's the general story, BUT...

    As you said, IJ hasn't been found in any ancient samples in Iran.

    I would hope that we'll find them, but it would be quite a shock if we did not.

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    As I said...xd

    Again, the finding proves nothing concerning IJ origins. And I think we'll never know it, because this haplogroup was surely very widespread in the deeper past. The most especific guess at the moment is West Eurasia, and let's see what happens when checking ancient DNA, but I think it's possible to find ancient IJ in Europe, West Asia, the Middle East and even North Africa. So if this finally happens, which it wouldn't be surprising IMO, it will be pretty difficult to know its origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    As I said...xd

    Again, the finding proves nothing concerning IJ origins. And I think we'll never know it, because this haplogroup was surely very widespread in the deeper past. The most especific guess at the moment is West Eurasia, and let's see what happens when checking ancient DNA, but I think it's possible to find ancient IJ in Europe, West Asia, the Middle East and even North Africa. So if this finally happens, which it wouldn't be surprising IMO, it will be pretty difficult to know its origins.
    According to most research I've read, it would be unlikely to be found in significant numbers in North Africa. The Middle East in general is the censensus for where IJ would probably be located.

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    Not unlikely at all considering IJ's antiquity. Finding ancient IJ in North Africa would not mean it originated there (very unlikely of course), it would just support my point that it was a very widespread haplogroup in West Eurasia. This is the most logical escenario since this haplogroup had a lot of time to move and spread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    That's the general story, BUT...



    As you said, IJ hasn't been found in any ancient samples in Iran.

    I would hope that we'll find them, but it would be quite a shock if we did not.
    I dont get the but part, since it was neither found in modern nor in ancient populations anywhere else?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    As I said...xd

    Again, the finding proves nothing concerning IJ origins. And I think we'll never know it, because this haplogroup was surely very widespread in the deeper past. The most especific guess at the moment is West Eurasia, and let's see what happens when checking ancient DNA, but I think it's possible to find ancient IJ in Europe, West Asia, the Middle East and even North Africa. So if this finally happens, which it wouldn't be surprising IMO, it will be pretty difficult to know its origins.
    I thought it was common knowledge the IJ (the mother of I and J haplogroups) originated somewhere in West Asia. Or do some people expect that IJ originated in Europe and moved into West Asia and formed Haplogroup J? doesnt sound very meaningful. And also you have to take in account It has to be at least some 30-40000 years old, so it is not really a must to find any ancient IJ samples of that time if we have not even been able to find lineages of Paleolithic times in Europe.

    To me this "but" simply sounds some people cant get over the fact that IJ* (as most scientist believed even before this finding) originated in Western Asia. Was there any doubt about this even before this finding?

    Knovas dont drag this into ridiculousness with your Middle Eastern phobia. It is general knowledge that IJ* has to be originated in West Asia assuming anything else would be out of sense. Your talking about findings in Middle East in such a generalizing tone as if any other place beside Western Asia would come in question.

    It is possible to assume, that Haplogroup IJ originated somewhere else in Western Asia (as example in Eastern Anatolia or North Mesopotamia where the diversity of J gets highest), but any place outside West Asia is out of question for me.

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    No phobia my friend, and please, do not try to insult myself with such childish argument. I hope moderators take some notes about your behaviour when someone tells something you simply don't like to read...because it's not the first time.

    What is of general knowledge, is that there's nothing as clear as you pretend to show regarding IJ, and we'll probably won't know more for the reasons I already explained (and seems you intentionally ignore). Like it or not, we need ancient DNA, it's the best clue, but probably not enough to know where IJ originated if it finally appears in many ancient burials as I suspect. In short: take it easy with your categorical statements and lack of respect, this is just the begining ;)

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