Searching for famous I2 carriers

[sparkey]

Does anybody know the haplogroups of the Dukes of Brunswick-Lueneburg /Brunswick-Wolfenb�ttel - the also became Kings of England (for example King Georg) in the 18th century? They all came from Lower Saxony in Germany - perhapst they are I2a2a.

AFAIK, their haplogroup isn't known. For British monarchs, I believe we're relatively certain that the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Wettin) line is R1b-U106, and the Stuart line is R1b-L21, but we don't have anyone tested from the Hanover line yet. See Maciamo.

 

[adamo]

Does anyone have info on I-P37.2*-west. haplogroup ?

 

[sparkey]

Does anyone have info on I-P37.2*-west. haplogroup ?

It's not really P37.2* anymore, we now know that it is CTS595+ (as is I2-M26), L1286+ (same as I2a-"Alpine"), and L233+ (its defining SNP, along with a related outlier).

Unfortunately samples are somewhat scarce, but it seems fairly young, about as young as I2a-Din, and seems to me to have a geographic center somewhere around the Netherlands.

 

[adamo]

It is the most basal form of i2a, correct? I heatd it originated in north-central Germany

 

[sparkey]

It is the most basal form of i2a, correct?

No... it's a far downstream subclade, not very old.

I heatd it originated in north-central Germany

Very possible.

 

[adamo]

So i typed my snps into the haplogroup predictor and there is a 45% chance im I-P37.2* west ( I suppose this means L233+). There's a 20% chance im J2b and no mention of any R1 clades. Then when taking the subclade predictor test theres a 65% chance im I-P37.2*-west and 20% chance im I1, could i guess that this is my haplogroup? Zero ftdna matches and no information was transmitted to me.

 

[adamo]

Please see post above for my question, it means alot to me, has anyone ever considered eastern germany\czech republic as region of origin of I2a? Before migrating towards balkans from this exact central europe region?

 

[sparkey]

So i typed my snps into the haplogroup predictor and there is a 45% chance im I-P37.2* west ( I suppose this means L233+). There's a 20% chance im J2b and no mention of any R1 clades. Then when taking the subclade predictor test theres a 65% chance im I-P37.2*-west and 20% chance im I1, could i guess that this is my haplogroup? Zero ftdna matches and no information was transmitted to me.

I thought you were T? Have you taken any SNP (rather than STR) tests? Do you have a YSearch ID so that I can take a closer look at your STRs?

Please see post above for my question, it means alot to me, has anyone ever considered eastern germany\czech republic as region of origin of I2a? Before migrating towards balkans from this exact central europe region?

IIRC, I2a expert Vadim Verenich believes the I2a origin to be somewhere on the north side of the Alps. The region you're proposing is probably within range.

 

[adamo]

Im under the impression that the Czech republic region of central europe is where I2a originated before migrating en masse towards the balkans on one side and towards france \spain on the other side before moving to sardinia.

 

[Armatus]

Seems like we got our first king ! Descendants of Napoleon III. tested for I-M170 and are presumably I-M223. Apparently a NPE occured in the Bonaparte line. The best candidate is http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carel_Hendrik_Verhuell.

http://stoessel.wordpress.com/2013/...gruppe-i-m170-von-napoleon-iii-bei-der-y-dna/

http://www.empereurperdu.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=5135

 

[sparkey]

Seems like we got our first king ! Descendants of Napoleon III. tested for I-M170 and are presumably I-M223. Apparently a NPE occured in the Bonaparte line. The best candidate is http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carel_Hendrik_Verhuell.

http://stoessel.wordpress.com/2013/...gruppe-i-m170-von-napoleon-iii-bei-der-y-dna/

http://www.empereurperdu.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=5135

Very intriguing. Looks like a done deal, and we should be getting a publication from Lucotte anytime now.

Why presumably M223+, though? Do you have the STRs to look at somewhere?

 

[Armatus]

Very intriguing. Looks like a done deal, and we should be getting a publication from Lucotte anytime now.

Why presumably M223+, though? Do you have the STRs to look at somewhere?

Unfortunately I don't have the STRs. I just saw I-M223 predicted (the stoessel link):

FTDNAs predictions are normally accurate. It would also match Verhuells dutch ancestry pretty good.

 

[sparkey]

Unfortunately I don't have the STRs. I just saw I-M223 predicted (the stoessel link):

FTDNAs predictions are normally accurate. It would also match Verhuells dutch ancestry pretty good.

Wow, I missed that, I just noticed "I-M170" everywhere. Thanks. Added Napoleon III to the maybes for now, waiting on a little bit of additional confirmation (and hopefully STRs to classify him better).

 

[Armatus]

I'm seeing several Barclays testing I2a1a1 L160+, but no indication that any are related to Barclay de Tolly. If there's interest though, I can add him to the maybes.

What about adding the Barclay clan to the noble families section ? Most participiants with the actual Barclay surname tested I-L160, their TMRCA/Haplogroup fits the clan history (norman ancestry). The R1b section is mostly compromised of people with other surnames, plus they don't really match each other very closely.

 

[Maciamo]

Wow, I missed that, I just noticed "I-M170" everywhere. Thanks. Added Napoleon III to the maybes for now, waiting on a little bit of additional confirmation (and hopefully STRs to classify him better).

Lucotte et al. published in October the extended Y-STR of Napoleon I based on descendant testing, and the descendants were E-M34, just like the emperor's beard hair tested a year before.

They only tested Jérôme Bonaparte's descendants, not Louis and Napoleon III's line. But if Napoleon III's descendants aren't E-M34 it can only mean that a non-paternity event happened somewhere. Since its has been claimed that Louis Bonaparte was a homosexual, and his wife was non else than the promiscuous Hortense de Beauharnais (Joséphine's daughter), it wouldn't be too surprising that Napoleon III wasn't Louis's biological son.

Hortense is known to have had at least one other illegitimate son (Charles de Morny, Duke of Morny), who bears an uncanny resemblance with Napoleon III, and could therefore both have been sired by the same man. This man, Hortense's lover and Charles de Morny's father, was Charles Joseph, comte de Flahaut. What's even more interesting is that he was himself the son of Prince Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord, possibly the greatest statesman of the French Revolution and the Bourbon Restoration, and the man most responsible for Napoleon I's downfall. Napoleon I famously told him that he was "a turd in a silk stocking". It would be an ironic twist of history if Napoleon III was really Tayllerand's grandson and not Napoleon I's !

Besides, if this is true and Napoleon III is I-M223, it would also be the haplogroup of the House of Talleyrand-Périgord. This house is a cadet branch of the Count of La Marche, whose oldest patrilineal ancestor is Boso I (958–988), himself a probable descendant of the House of Limoges, from whom are also descended the Viscounts of Turenne, the Viscounts of Rochechouart, and the Dukes of Mortemart, among others. The House of Limoges itself was founded as a cadet branch of the Counts of Toulouse-Rouergue, dating back to the 9th century. I-M223 would be a very possible haplogroup for an old Frankish noble family.

 

[Maciamo]

Seems like we got our first king ! Descendants of Napoleon III. tested for I-M170 and are presumably I-M223. Apparently a NPE occured in the Bonaparte line. The best candidate is http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carel_Hendrik_Verhuell.

http://stoessel.wordpress.com/2013/...gruppe-i-m170-von-napoleon-iii-bei-der-y-dna/

http://www.empereurperdu.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=5135

Verhuell being Dutch, a country where I-M223 is common, he is indeed also a candidate for being Napoleon III's father. But he relationship with Hortense is not proven. I also think that he look less like Napoleon III than Flahaut, but who knows.

 

[nordicwarrior]

I had assumed Napoleon was a member of hg. E-- wasn't aware of this new information. Very interesting.

If Napoleon and Tesla are indeed I2, I would have them first and second on the list. Crockett and President Johnson would also be top five in my opinion.

P.S. I've always suspected Tesla was an I2. That's awesome!

 

[sparkey]

What about adding the Barclay clan to the noble families section ? Most participiants with the actual Barclay surname tested I-L160, their TMRCA/Haplogroup fits the clan history (norman ancestry). The R1b section is mostly compromised of people with other surnames, plus they don't really match each other very closely.

I'll look into it within the next few days. I recall reading some Russians claiming Barclay de Tolly as I2, but I wasn't able to dig up much info about it at that time. I probably wasn't looking in the right place.

 

[sparkey]

I had assumed Napoleon was a member of hg. E-- wasn't aware of this new information. Very interesting.

If Napoleon and Tesla are indeed I2, I would have them first and second on the list. Crockett and President Johnson would also be top five in my opinion.

Napoleon was E. Only Napoleon III was I2-M223 (provided that the information provided so far is accurate). Although, even so, he'd probably still be in the top 3 most famous figures in the list.

If Maciamo is right and Talleyrand was on the same I2 line (although obviously we shouldn't take this as a given), we'd have another top 3 most famous figure IMHO. I know that even in America, he is given a prominent place in history books, although here it's mainly for instigating the XYZ Affair.

 

[sparkey]

I'll look into it within the next few days. I recall reading some Russians claiming Barclay de Tolly as I2, but I wasn't able to dig up much info about it at that time. I probably wasn't looking in the right place.

OK, I've looked a bit more into it, and I've come up empty-handed. Are there any particularly interesting I2a Barclay samples that prove a connection to one of the famous Barclay branches, like the Quaker/banker branch or the Barons of Towie/Barclay de Tolly branch? None in the Barclay DNA project seem to connect, and there are non-I2 Barclays mixed in to muddy the waters further. The spike of I2 among Barclays is indeed interesting, but doesn't show much by itself.