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    1 members found this post helpful.

    Searching for famous I2 carriers

    Haplogroups R1b, I1, R1a, and even E1b and G2a have a plethora of interesting famous figures associated with them, proven through YDNA tests, YDNA tests of relatives, or ancient DNA tests. Maciamo has kept small lists on his individual haplogroup pages, and there's even a Wikipedia page on the subject. But until I started this, Haplogroup I2 had been notoriously absent. So, following Vadim Verenich's lead somewhat, I've been looking for famous members of Haplogroup I2, especially via the YDNA testing of cousins, and updating the following post whenever I've come across a new one.

    As always, I'm looking for more to add, so please make suggestions if you have any.
    Last edited by sparkey; 31-10-13 at 01:51. Reason: Split first post

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    Me!

    But no, I don't. I have wondered about this, too. I found it odd that there should be no known famous people carrying I2, especially as I2 is common enough that one would imagine something would be there.

    I2 associations with historical people might also give clues to the ethnic importance of the I2 haplogroup.

    Considering I2's prevalence in Saxony, it might be interesting to see whether any royalty from that area carries I2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Hannibal Hamlin, Abraham Lincoln's first Vice President, and an influential Maine politician. The I-M223 Project has the Hamlin haplogroup as I2-Cont2a Z76+, or I2a2a3a in current ISOGG nomenclature.

    Oliver Winchester, arms manufacturer and the namesake of the Winchester rifle. The Winchester Family DNA Project has his family branch's haplogroup as I2a-Isles L161+, or I2a1b2 in current ISOGG nomenclature.
    Good initiative, sparkey. Those are not super famous, but that's a start. It's funny that they look a bit alike (nose and mouth especially) and also a bit like a great-grand-father of mine who was also I2 (based on my second cousin's test).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Good initiative, sparkey. Those are not super famous, but that's a start. It's funny that they look a bit alike (nose and mouth especially) and also a bit like a great-grand-father of mine who was also I2 (based on my second cousin's test).
    Yeah, they're the best I could find. I don't know if proving Fausto Veranzio would be an improvement, either. Maybe if we got some tests on relatives of famous South Slavic folks, we'd start getting more interesting results. Maybe some already have, even... I'm just not good at recognizing a famous South Slavic name when I see it.

    Hamlin and Winchester probably look alike because they were both New Englanders, so they come from the same largely East Anglian origin gene pool. Interesting about the similarity with your great grandfather, though. I suppose East Anglians have the closest genetic connection to the continent among British people.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    15th century medic prince Zaza Phanaskertel-Tsitsishvili

    http://www.biusante.parisdescartes.f...01x064x067.pdf


    Two old royal/princely houses from I2c-B cluster which had many important representatives for the Caucasus region :)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hasan-Jalalyan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donauri



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    15th century medic prince Zaza Phanaskertel-Tsitsishvili

    http://www.biusante.parisdescartes.f...01x064x067.pdf


    Two old royal/princely houses from I2c-B cluster which had many important representatives for the Caucasus region :)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hasan-Jalalyan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donauri


    Thanks! I already knew about Hasan-Jalal Dawla (got a blurb in my original post), but haven't researched the other two. I know we have 2/3 claimants of descent from Hasan-Jalal Dawla getting a matching I2c haplotype, which is good evidence that the 2 I2c samples are actual descendants of Hasan-Jalal Dawla, while the 3rd is mistaken.

    Zaza Phanaskertel-Tsitsishvili is a cool one that seems basically proven. How famous is that name amongst Georgians?

    Also, is there anyone famous on the Donauri line after Gabriel of Kakheti? Because that's so far back that I'd be uncomfortable saying that anything has been proven, unless we have a vast array of otherwise unrelated claimants testing I2c.

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    Tsitsishvilis are well-known and respected family/house in Georgia. They've had many locally famous representatives.

    There is also one important but notorious figure: Pavel Tsitsianov (surname in Russian manner in his case)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Tsitsianov

    As for Vachnadze/Donauris after they lost eastern Georgia to Bagrationis they kept low profile, had few locally important people but nothing exceptional. From modern times I can think of prince Jean Vatchnadze, active member of French Resistance movement during WW2, who later became one of the commanders of the French Foreign legion.

    Interestingly I appear quite closely related to Jalal-Dawlas, and our TMRCA supposedly live 800-1100 years ago. I've ordered 67 to 111 upgrade to get a more precise picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    There is also one important but notorious figure: Pavel Tsitsianov (surname in Russian manner in his case)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Tsitsianov
    Very interesting, thanks. This guy is more what I'm looking for when I'm talking about famous people. So we don't get Stalin or Hitler, but we do get a bloodthirsty governor-general.

    How certain would you say we are that Pavel Tsitsianov is related to the I2c Tsitsishvilis? If we're certain beyond a reasonable doubt, I'll add him to the original post, and he'll be one of 3 Official Famous I2 Carriers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Interestingly I appear quite closely related to Jalal-Dawlas, and our TMRCA supposedly live 800-1100 years ago. I've ordered 67 to 111 upgrade to get a more precise picture.
    Yeah, it's interesting that they're closer than the TMRCA of the Caucasian branch of I2c-B as a whole. I'm pretty convinced that the apparent "nobility expansion" of I2c in the Caucasus is real. It's funny that a haplogroup as European as I2 is finding no noble connections to Europe, but plenty in the Caucasus.

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    Pavel Tsitsianov without any doubt belongs to Tsitsishvili house.
    Unlike many other noble surnames in Georgia all Tsitsisvhilis belong to the same princely house and so it was historically. There were no peasant or lower nobility Tsitsisvilis.

    Yes, it seems that the story of I2c-B in the Caucasus was similar to of the Norman barons in England :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Pavel Tsitsianov without any doubt belongs to Tsitsishvili house.
    Unlike many other noble surnames in Georgia all Tsitsisvhilis belong to the same princely house and so it was historically. There were no peasant or lower nobility Tsitsisvilis.
    Great, I went ahead and added him, and also Zaza Phanaskertel-Tsitsishvili, after reading more about him and deciding that he is famous enough to include as well. (I guess that judgment is arbitrary for now--while we're still looking for any famous I2, I'll be lenient. Let's say "Has a Wikipedia article" is good enough for now.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Great, I went ahead and added him, and also Zaza Phanaskertel-Tsitsishvili, after reading more about him and deciding that he is famous enough to include as well. (I guess that judgment is arbitrary for now--while we're still looking for any famous I2, I'll be lenient. Let's say "Has a Wikipedia article" is good enough for now.)
    Thanks! :)

    And in case you are interested I have a saint from Vachandze/Donauri house. English source doesn't mention the surname but it's written in French one. Saint Ilraion/Hilarion Georgian is very venerable saint in Orthodox world.

    http://www.holytrinityorthodox.com/c...mber/19-08.htm

    http://home.scarlet.be/amdg/oldies/sankt/nov19.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Thanks! :)

    And in case you are interested I have a saint from Vachandze/Donauri house. English source doesn't mention the surname but it's written in French one. Saint Ilraion/Hilarion Georgian is very venerable saint in Orthodox world.

    http://www.holytrinityorthodox.com/c...mber/19-08.htm

    http://home.scarlet.be/amdg/oldies/sankt/nov19.html
    Interesting stuff. I went ahead and added the Donauris to the "maybes." I'm keeping them there just because extrapolating back over 1000 years is too far to be certain that the earliest Donauris had the same haplogroup. But maybe we'll become more certain if more Donauris test, and all are I2c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Interesting stuff. I went ahead and added the Donauris to the "maybes." I'm keeping them there just because extrapolating back over 1000 years is too far to be certain that the earliest Donauris had the same haplogroup. But maybe we'll become more certain if more Donauris test, and all are I2c.
    Thanks, Sparkey.
    The person tested is the head of Vachnadze house. By the end of the year hopefully we'll manage to test some representatives of side branches of the family.

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    Sparkey:

    Besides Saxony for I2a2a, I would suggest looking for people from Umea to Lulea Sweden. It is one of the dark spots on the map for I2a2a concentration.

    Naturally, for some -Isles folks, you gotta go for Britain. I am not a direct relation to Nicholas Rowe, the English playwright and poet laureate, but it would be interesting if he was I2a2a like myself. I have no idea how to check that, though. I don't know any Rowes who are actually related to him.

    Hey. Maybe I can get in touch with Mike "Dirty Jobs" Rowe. See if he is an I2a2a guy, too.

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    I've read somewhere that the Ulaid, the Irish clan that gave their name to Ulster, were I2a1b2 carriers. I wouldn't know how to verify that, however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    I've read somewhere that the Ulaid, the Irish clan that gave their name to Ulster, were I2a1b2 carriers. I wouldn't know how to verify that, however.
    I think it's a good assumption that they had some I2a1b2, since a lot of the I2a1b2 from Ireland is associated with families historically from the Ulaid area. It would be much more difficult to trace the I2a1b2 haplogroup to any particular famous Ulaid, though... as interesting as it would be if Rudraige mac Sithrigi and Conall Cernach were I2!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I think it's a good assumption that they had some I2a1b2, since a lot of the I2a1b2 from Ireland is associated with families historically from the Ulaid area. It would be much more difficult to trace the I2a1b2 haplogroup to any particular famous Ulaid, though... as interesting as it would be if Rudraige mac Sithrigi and Conall Cernach were I2!
    There was a study that claimed to link M284 with the cruithin, another group in Ulster with Scottish links. I never heard of the Ulaidh claim.
    I'm almost certain that I read of the surname Neeson turning up in M223 or M284, so I wonder if Liam Neeson would be any of the M223+ groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inver2b1 View Post
    There was a study that claimed to link M284 with the cruithin, another group in Ulster with Scottish links. I never heard of the Ulaidh claim.
    I'm almost certain that I read of the surname Neeson turning up in M223 or M284, so I wonder if Liam Neeson would be any of the M223+ groups.
    Thanks for the info. Any famous Cruithin then? It still seems too long ago to prove to me.

    I tried to dig up the Neeson sample you mentioned, as well as a pedigree of Liam Neeson to match it to, but couldn't find either thing. I might put it in the worth-exploring list if I can find something more intriguing there, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Thanks for the info. Any famous Cruithin then? It still seems too long ago to prove to me.

    I tried to dig up the Neeson sample you mentioned, as well as a pedigree of Liam Neeson to match it to, but couldn't find either thing. I might put it in the worth-exploring list if I can find something more intriguing there, though.
    I am unable to post a link for the Neeson reference, search for "neeson m223" in yahoo and the link should be the first result.
    Regarding the cruithin, surnames said to have a strong link are mainly McCartan and McGuiness.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Minor update: Added Gregory Petsko. (He has a Wikipedia page!)

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    Update again: Added Henry Luce and his relatives. Somebody pretty famous this time!

    I think we may be getting a top 5 reasonably famous I2 carriers:

    (1) Hannibal Hamlin
    (2) Henry Luce
    (3) Oliver Winchester
    (4) Fausto Veranzio [needs additional confirmation]
    (5) Pavel Tsitsianov

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    On Russian DNA forums I've found a claim that Michael Andreas Barclay de Tolly was I2, but so far can't find a confirmation about which descendant was tested and where.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michae...rclay_de_Tolly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    On Russian DNA forums I've found a claim that Michael Andreas Barclay de Tolly was I2, but so far can't find a confirmation about which descendant was tested and where.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michae...rclay_de_Tolly
    I'm seeing several Barclays testing I2a1a1 L160+, but no indication that any are related to Barclay de Tolly. If there's interest though, I can add him to the maybes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I'm seeing several Barclays testing I2a1a1 L160+, but no indication that any are related to Barclay de Tolly. If there's interest though, I can add him to the maybes.
    What about adding the Barclay clan to the noble families section ? Most participiants with the actual Barclay surname tested I-L160, their TMRCA/Haplogroup fits the clan history (norman ancestry). The R1b section is mostly compromised of people with other surnames, plus they don't really match each other very closely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armatus View Post
    What about adding the Barclay clan to the noble families section ? Most participiants with the actual Barclay surname tested I-L160, their TMRCA/Haplogroup fits the clan history (norman ancestry). The R1b section is mostly compromised of people with other surnames, plus they don't really match each other very closely.
    I'll look into it within the next few days. I recall reading some Russians claiming Barclay de Tolly as I2, but I wasn't able to dig up much info about it at that time. I probably wasn't looking in the right place.

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