Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

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I've been wanting to make this thread for a while, and now I have some free time. Please, if you have a strong nationalistic bias, don't even bother commenting. If you have a slight bias, be careful of what you say. I don't want to turn this into a stupid 13 year old keyboard warrior convention. Both Yugoslavians and Albanians have a right to call Illyrians their ancestors in my opinion, if they want to that is.

I'm going to try to establish this continuity on a linguistic/historical basis. I'll also look at some counter-arguments as well.

Reason #1 The Tosk-Gheg split


This dialect split predates the slavic migrations in the balkans, and the river Shkumbin (central Albania) acts as the the divisive line. The reason why it predates it, is because both dialects deal differently with foreign borrowings, especially slavic words. (I'll leave it to whoever wants to research it). Illyrian is thought to have gone extinct at the same time this split happened. So one can establish that proto-Albanian and Illyrian were spoken roughly at the same place and time, making it difficult to call them different languages.

Reason #2 Latin Borrowings

A great number of borrowed latin words, PREDATE the christian era. Illyrians were the only tribes in the Balkans to be conquered by the Roman Empire before the year 0. Thracians and Dacians were invaded around 100 AD. The only explanation for these pre 0 AD, words is that they were passed down from the Illyrians when they were first invaded around 3-200 BC.

Reason #3 Greek Borrowings

The same argument goes for borrowings from DORIC greek, which mean Illyrians/Albanians were living near northwestern Greece since times of antiquity. P.S. Remember while Epirus and Macedonia were Greek states, only the ruling class were greek, the rest of the population were of Illyrian/Macedonian stock.(I'm uncertain whether the two had any relationship)

Reason #4 No records of Migrations

The Byzantines documented all significant migrations in the Balkans, none are mentioned regarding Albanians arriving to this modern region.


Arguments against

Let me talk about the main "historian" who contradicts this theory, Georgiev. I wanted to establish his own pro-Bulgarian bias, by quoting from one of his books where he talks about Thracians and Illyrians being these Greco-Germanic tribes who derived from the Pelasgians. Lunatic? Yes, very much so. But I have been searching for an hour and I cant find it. IF SOMEONE CAN, PLEASE POST A LINK! He makes very vague claims and assumptions, and his interpretations in grey areas are definitely biased driven.

#1 - He says Illyrians were coastal people, while Albanians are mountainous since they LACK maritime vocabulary.

First of all, even the word for sea in Albanian is det, which is original, although derived from PIE be it. Second of all, Albania/Southern Illyria is about 70-80% mountains, right next to the coast. You can be a mountainous AND coastal people due to the proximity of the mountains and sea in the Adriatic coast. There's also loads of other sea-animal names completely native to Albanian, such as gaforre (crab) which Leibniz said is related to the word fork.

#2 - Eastern Balkan Romance words

This is definitely from contact with Romanians, although it doesnt make Albanians automatically Dacian, they are simply borrowings. And again there's a lot words in Albanian of Latin origin before the year 0 AD, before the Romans even invaded Dacia and Thracia.

#3 - Centum/Satem Theory

This is quite an interesting one. Albanian is established as Satem, while Illyrian might have been Centum, but there is not enough evidence. First of all, let me start by saying that NO LANGUAGE IS 100% Centum and Satem. All IE languages have features from both, although some an amount of overwhelming more examples than others. For example while one language can have 85% words with Centum features it might also have another 15% with Satem.

Second of all, Tocharian pretty much shattered this theory. Although there is undeniably a shift that has undergone from PIE, no one knows how this shift took place. The best guess would be areal contact, rather than a Proto-Satem Proto-Centum theory, although even that is just a guess. So we can't use this theory, until we know more about this shift to deny that one language is Centum and it cannot be derived from Satem. In French, the word cent is pronounce so, a satem feature derived from a centum language. There's another linguist (too lazy to look him up, its on wiktionary I think) that supports the argument that one cannot use this pseudo-theory to determine if a satem/centum can develop into a centum/satem, since all languages share features from both.

Illyrian has examples of Satem features as well. For example the name Gentius is found in 2 forms, Gentius and Zanatis which both derived from PIE gen.


My fingers are tired of typing, so Ill stop now. Theres also a ton of other arguments, I just chose to adress the main ones. I might add new stuff later. Feel free to disagree/agree with me, BUT PLEASE LEAVE YOUR BIAS OUT THE DOOR. If you have one that is.
 
I've been wanting to make this thread for a while, and now I have some free time. Please, if you have a strong nationalistic bias, don't even bother commenting. If you have a slight bias, be careful of what you say. I don't want to turn this into a stupid 13 year old keyboard warrior convention. Both Yugoslavians and Albanians have a right to call Illyrians their ancestors in my opinion, if they want to that is.

I'm going to try to establish this continuity on a linguistic/historical basis. I'll also look at some counter-arguments as well.

agree, nationalism has no place in this forum

Reason #1 The Tosk-Gheg split


This dialect split predates the slavic migrations in the balkans, and the river Shkumbin (central Albania) acts as the the divisive line. The reason why it predates it, is because both dialects deal differently with foreign borrowings, especially slavic words. (I'll leave it to whoever wants to research it). Illyrian is thought to have gone extinct at the same time this split happened. So one can establish that proto-Albanian and Illyrian were spoken roughly at the same place and time, making it difficult to call them different languages.

proto-albanian and illyrian could not be spoken at same time because the albanians where unknown to the Roman historians until 150CE.


Reason #2 Latin Borrowings

A great number of borrowed latin words, PREDATE the christian era. Illyrians were the only tribes in the Balkans to be conquered by the Roman Empire before the year 0. Thracians and Dacians were invaded around 100 AD. The only explanation for these pre 0 AD, words is that they were passed down from the Illyrians when they were first invaded around 3-200 BC.

The Macedonian empire of Philip V fell to the Romans in 136BCE and this kingdom ruled modern day albanian lands from the time of Philip II ( about 350BCE ).

Reason #3 Greek Borrowings

The same argument goes for borrowings from DORIC greek, which mean Illyrians/Albanians were living near northwestern Greece since times of antiquity. P.S. Remember while Epirus and Macedonia were Greek states, only the ruling class were greek, the rest of the population were of Illyrian/Macedonian stock.(I'm uncertain whether the two had any relationship)

as above, the Greeks got their Pseudo-freedom after the macedonian empire fell

Reason #4 No records of Migrations

The Byzantines documented all significant migrations in the Balkans, none are mentioned regarding Albanians arriving to this modern region.

The Byzantines where not around if you believe the Roman historians first recording of albanians from 150CE
So they did not record it because the albanians where already there


Arguments against

Let me talk about the main "historian" who contradicts this theory, Georgiev. I wanted to establish his own pro-Bulgarian bias, by quoting from one of his books where he talks about Thracians and Illyrians being these Greco-Germanic tribes who derived from the Pelasgians. Lunatic? Yes, very much so. But I have been searching for an hour and I cant find it. IF SOMEONE CAN, PLEASE POST A LINK! He makes very vague claims and assumptions, and his interpretations in grey areas are definitely biased driven.

#1 - He says Illyrians were coastal people, while Albanians are mountainous since they LACK maritime vocabulary.

First of all, even the word for sea in Albanian is det, which is original, although derived from PIE be it. Second of all, Albania/Southern Illyria is about 70-80% mountains, right next to the coast. You can be a mountainous AND coastal people due to the proximity of the mountains and sea in the Adriatic coast. There's also loads of other sea-animal names completely native to Albanian, such as gaforre (crab) which Leibniz said is related to the word fork.

#2 - Eastern Balkan Romance words

This is definitely from contact with Romanians, although it doesnt make Albanians automatically Dacian, they are simply borrowings. And again there's a lot words in Albanian of Latin origin before the year 0 AD, before the Romans even invaded Dacia and Thracia.

#3 - Centum/Satem Theory

This is quite an interesting one. Albanian is established as Satem, while Illyrian might have been Centum, but there is not enough evidence. First of all, let me start by saying that NO LANGUAGE IS 100% Centum and Satem. All IE languages have features from both, although some an amount of overwhelming more examples than others. For example while one language can have 85% words with Centum features it might also have another 15% with Satem.

Second of all, Tocharian pretty much shattered this theory. Although there is undeniably a shift that has undergone from PIE, no one knows how this shift took place. The best guess would be areal contact, rather than a Proto-Satem Proto-Centum theory, although even that is just a guess. So we can't use this theory, until we know more about this shift to deny that one language is Centum and it cannot be derived from Satem. In French, the word cent is pronounce so, a satem feature derived from a centum language. There's another linguist (too lazy to look him up, its on wiktionary I think) that supports the argument that one cannot use this pseudo-theory to determine if a satem/centum can develop into a centum/satem, since all languages share features from both.

Illyrian has examples of Satem features as well. For example the name Gentius is found in 2 forms, Gentius and Zanatis which both derived from PIE gen.

Never heard of this bulgarian, seek other writers like Alfoldy and wilkins

Facts are -
1. albanians unknown to Romans until 150CE even though Romans ruled the land in question.
2 -the 6 or more Roman emperors who where illyrian where dalmatian or pannonians and there is no mention of albanians as being associated with these Emperors.
3 - The period from around 350BCE to 330BCE saw the annexation of Epirus by the macedonian who ruled modern day albanian lands until 136BCE . The 14 epirote tribes in the area has no mention of albanians. The macedonian army which invaded Persia after this annexation had macedonian, dardanian, epiote , greek and thracian troops an no mention of illyrian or Albanian troops in its contingent.
4 - the 2 illyrian.v. macedonian wars settled the border with a 10 year peace on the Drin river..........this was the only way the macedonians could invade persia, by securing the rear
5 - since the Romans where renowned in moving large tribal groups of 5000 ( a form of culling) from one area to another in the kingdom , I suspect the albanians where split from another associated tribe somewhere in the northeast balkans. example of this roman system are 5000 people from the thracian bessi tribe to veneto lands near Loria, the place is still called bessica, 4000 heruli to Concordia in friuli ( the remained signed into the roman army and staitioned in batavia), 4000 alenaani to verona and lots more
 
It is not the Albanians those who are nationalistic in this isse(except for some people with delusional theories around) it is their South Slavic neighbors who always bring this Albanian-Illyrian disconnection. They are merely trying to disown any Albanian-Illyrian proofs and try to make themself Illyrian which is rather pathetic. The 2012 IBD study has shown that Slavic migrations have indeed made an impact into the Balkans not just among South Slavs but even among the Albanians and Greeks to a lesser degree.

@zanipolo Albanoi were mentioned as Illyrian tribe. And i am not eager to say that most of modern day Albanians are descended from this Albanoi tribe. Probably this tribe rose in prominance and hence the reason to label all of the non-Latinized Illyrian tribes Arbanese/Arberesh/Albanoi/Albanians.
 
agree, nationalism has no place in this forum


proto-albanian and illyrian could not be spoken at same time because the albanians where unknown to the Roman historians until 150CE.




The Macedonian empire of Philip V fell to the Romans in 136BCE and this kingdom ruled modern day albanian lands from the time of Philip II ( about 350BCE ).



as above, the Greeks got their Pseudo-freedom after the macedonian empire fell



The Byzantines where not around if you believe the Roman historians first recording of albanians from 150CE
So they did not record it because the albanians where already there




Never heard of this bulgarian, seek other writers like Alfoldy and wilkins

Facts are -
1. albanians unknown to Romans until 150CE even though Romans ruled the land in question.
2 -the 6 or more Roman emperors who where illyrian where dalmatian or pannonians and there is no mention of albanians as being associated with these Emperors.
3 - The period from around 350BCE to 330BCE saw the annexation of Epirus by the macedonian who ruled modern day albanian lands until 136BCE . The 14 epirote tribes in the area has no mention of albanians. The macedonian army which invaded Persia after this annexation had macedonian, dardanian, epiote , greek and thracian troops an no mention of illyrian or Albanian troops in its contingent.
4 - the 2 illyrian.v. macedonian wars settled the border with a 10 year peace on the Drin river..........this was the only way the macedonians could invade persia, by securing the rear
5 - since the Romans where renowned in moving large tribal groups of 5000 ( a form of culling) from one area to another in the kingdom , I suspect the albanians where split from another associated tribe somewhere in the northeast balkans. example of this roman system are 5000 people from the thracian bessi tribe to veneto lands near Loria, the place is still called bessica, 4000 heruli to Concordia in friuli ( the remained signed into the roman army and staitioned in batavia), 4000 alenaani to verona and lots more

Zanipolo IDK if you're playing dumb or what. Of course there is no reference to Albanians with the name "Albanians". If there were we wouldn't be discussing this right now. The name Albania comes from the Latin name of the tribe of Albanoi, in Albanian Arbër or Arbën (Gheg) and is noted from the 10-11 century.

In north-east balkans lived the Dacians and Albanian is not Dacian. The Dacian words in Albanian are loans.

I've asked this Question countless times but got no answer. In the Balkans BC times there were, as far as I know 3 main language groups, Illyro, Thraco-Dacian and Greek. Albanian isn't Greek and that's for sure, It isn't Dacian and it isn't Thracian (if Dacian and Thracian are similar group) and according to you it isn't Illyrian either. So what it is? It is for sure is a Paleo-Balkanik language.
 
proto-albanian and illyrian could not be spoken at same time because the albanians where unknown to the Roman historians until 150CE.

did you read what I said....? The dialectal split between Tosk and Gheg, based on INFERENCE, took place 1500 years ago since it clearly PREDATES slavic migration in the balkans, because they treat borrowed words differently. Meaning the proto-Albanian language, before the Tosk-Gheg split, was spoken in the same area at the same time as Illyrian.

The Byzantines where not around if you believe the Roman historians first recording of albanians from 150CE
So they did not record it because the albanians where already there

Im talking about migrations during the slavic period. That is when the Byzantine empire existed. When you say already there you're implying the albanians were already in albania in 150..at the same time as Illyrians. I think theres some misunderstanding here.

----> No not until 150, but until 1000. Those Albanoi/Arbanon tribes have no documented correlation to modern day Albanians although their names may have derived from there. I think you're under the impression that Albanians and Illyrians were different tribes that lived in the same place 2000 ago, while this is proven not to be the case, as Illyrians were the only tribes there. The real question is whether any Thracian or Dacian tribes migrated over to the modern territory, during the migration period, and this imo is unlikely the case.
 
I've asked this Question countless times but got no answer. In the Balkans BC times there were, as far as I know 3 main language groups, Illyro, Thraco-Dacian and Greek. Albanian isn't Greek and that's for sure, It isn't Dacian and it isn't Thracian (if Dacian and Thracian are similar group) and according to you it isn't Illyrian either. So what it is? It is for sure is a Paleo-Balkanik language.

We're not sure if Thracian and Dacian were the same language. But there is also the possibility of another obscure language surviving in the Balkans, that could have become the ancestor of Albanian. But that is highly unlikely, since there is no mention of any such language.

Illyrian toponyms can only be explained in the Albanian language, which is also another main reason. Although it has been denied by some that Illyria is not related to i lirë "free", it also quite possible that the ilire were an Illyrian tribe which Greeks came to contact with early on, and later called all related tribes by that name. It is possible that's how the name found its way in Greek mythology, and we have to remember that Greek mythology was only semi-fictional i.e. zeus living on mountain olympia, (an actual mountain), celts, gauls, illyrus, being brothers, hence related.
 
I am tired of nationalistic Stupidity that runs through the Brain of Some,

Greek Olympus is mountain and not Olympia
Olympus exist in Cyprus minor Asia (turkey)


I lir means free, so the land is iliria after free?
and the peopel are free? from whom? from them shelves?

Nationalistic minds, see what ever they like,

lets see some Pelasgian words

El = (high, god, top )

when people die they go to Ηλλυσια (Ιllysia)
well known holly place Ellyse
or prophet Ellysieh god Ellah-Allah
so Illyria with 2 ll is after i lir with one l and i not y ok.

another stupidity,

at the whole of the word E Hg is proto IE at Balkans, and is a founder effect in Balkans,

so prorto IE were E hg !!!! or ???? or :))))

and something else E in Balkans is not Albanian neither Greek neither Bosnian neither Serbian,
it is Akkado-Cypriotic Levantine, neither NW African like the one found in Iberia,
by Homer we know that Αιθιωψ (Ethiopean) population lived near or Allied Mycenaeans
we speak about chalkolithic and bronze era populations


lets see this,

IE word for door what ever, lets see the European words

Germanic-English Door
Latino- Port
Greek Θυρα Thyra (th as think)

a famous Albanian linguist like Zeus10 and A kolla notice the connection of Dera with Thyra and claim that Albanian is the language of Dorians !!!!

I wonder since they are good why they did not notice the aspirations,

a letter that exist in IE turns in Greek to Θ to Latino- as P and to Northern Germanic languages as D so to wich language Dera is more near?

what hundrends of cases like that say to us?

in begging I heard about get rid of Nationalistc
they only I see is that the nationalist blindness is rulling, and nationalists have bigger imagination that scientists,

I repat again the Pelasgian E and or some J or G is not IE neither Dorian, is Akkadocypriot chalkolithic and has no connection with Iberian E which is NW African mesolithic or elder,

search the word Europe, in Hesiodic Greek Erebos in ALbanian Ereb, in Semitic Erebu


I am tired of Albanian nationalist pseudo-science and Albano-centric theories,

I don't care about your wars with Serbs or Greeks,
I wonder how much you get paid to find crup theories and ideas

watch carefully

Egyptian Amon-Ra
Illyrian Illy-ra
Greek Ηλλυσια Ηλιος
Hebrew El-Jah Elliseh
Arabic Allah
English Holly

these are words that connect Akkadian with IE.
that is why I am fun of Ie being a minor Asian language

want more
Akkadian assu = get out- spring out and sunrise
Greek Eως-Ηως = sunrise and ekso-exo εξω = get out
Germanic aus = out East = sunrise
word Asia = sunrise

search more, I am sure you will find many
there are more than 10 000 words according Yehunda

key words
BuKur-est
Albocense
Germidava-Albanopolis
Alba Lullia+Anjou+Hunja-des

lets check some Illyrian
Mire =good
Greek = Kalos agathos makarios
English = nice good merry or happy?
mire and merry? same aspiration
search with which language shares this aspiration? with Celtic? with Germanic? or it is Albanian and Loan to Celts and Germans?
may be is Illyrian?
search instead of looking with the eye of Nationalistic judgement

if we had better knowledge of Illyrian Thracian and especially Getan we might be able to explain better IE and I am certain that both Celtic and Germanic passed from Balkans before spread to the forests of W Europe, although with the today data I accept the Eurasian steppes theory as the one with the less wrong or faults

and to close the post,

Gennetical Data show that today Albanian and Alb Kossovo population seems to be known at historical times in Balkans and has connection with what and where Illyria was,
what does not fit is modern Albanian language which although shares Celtic+Pelasgian=Illyrian Messapic Thracian elements shows North-East origin
 
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Zanipolo IDK if you're playing dumb or what. Of course there is no reference to Albanians with the name "Albanians". If there were we wouldn't be discussing this right now. The name Albania comes from the Latin name of the tribe of Albanoi, in Albanian Arbër or Arbën (Gheg) and is noted from the 10-11 century.

In north-east balkans lived the Dacians and Albanian is not Dacian. The Dacian words in Albanian are loans.

I've asked this Question countless times but got no answer. In the Balkans BC times there were, as far as I know 3 main language groups, Illyro, Thraco-Dacian and Greek. Albanian isn't Greek and that's for sure, It isn't Dacian and it isn't Thracian (if Dacian and Thracian are similar group) and according to you it isn't Illyrian either. So what it is? It is for sure is a Paleo-Balkanik language.

do not say this again because the dumbness is yours, how is the 10th-11th century have any association with the illyrian as they did not exist. The name illyria was only "re-invented" by Napoleon in the 18th century.

north-east balkans of the thracian lands are the Getae , the dacians are in the north-west.

this tribe is a chance for albanians to be illyrian
[h=4]Labeates[/h] Labeates or Labeatae (Greek: Λαβεάται) was an Illyrian tribe that lived (after being defeated by Parmenio) around Scodra.[65]


or these


[h=3]Taulantii[/h]
Tribes in southern Illyris and Epirus.


Taulantii (Greek Ταυλάντιοι) was the name of a cluster[69] of Illyrian tribes. According to Greek mythology Taulas (Tαύλας), one of the six sons of Illyrius, was the eponymous ancestor of the Taulanti.[70] They lived on the Adriatic coast of Illyria (modern Albania), between to the vicinity[71] of the city of Epidamnus (modern Durrës). This tribe played an important role in Illyrian history of the 4th-3rd centuries BC,when King Glaukias (335 BC- 302 BC) ruled over them. This tribe had become bilingual being under the effects of an early Hellenisation.[26] Taulantii could prepare mead, wine from honey like the Abri.[72]


King Glaucias of Taulantii
Reignc.335 BC – c.302 BC
GreekΓλαυκίας
PredecessorPleuratus I
SuccessorBardyllis II
ConsortBeroea
FatherPleuratus I


married a royal molossian epirote princess Beroea

Now, you can continue your natiolist views and argue with the epirot Greeks on this forum ................I thought you where different....oh well you are the same as the rest.

BTW ...refrain from insulting people
 
Im talking about migrations during the slavic period. That is when the Byzantine empire existed. When you say already there you're implying the albanians were already in albania in 150..at the same time as Illyrians. I think theres some misunderstanding here.

----> No not until 150, but until 1000. Those Albanoi/Arbanon tribes have no documented correlation to modern day Albanians although their names may have derived from there. I think you're under the impression that Albanians and Illyrians were different tribes that lived in the same place 2000 ago, while this is proven not to be the case, as Illyrians were the only tribes there. The real question is whether any Thracian or Dacian tribes migrated over to the modern territory, during the migration period, and this imo is unlikely the case.

who cares about slavic migrations into the balkans after 600CE, the discussion was about illyrians and albanians.......you do know that the celts migrated into illyrian lands before the slavs...don't you?............you do know the goths went into the balkans before the slavs ...don't you..........Do you realise the illyrians where already mixing with these celtic and gothic people..........why do you exclude this?
 
do not say this again because the dumbness is yours, how is the 10th-11th century have any association with the illyrian as they did not exist. The name illyria was only "re-invented" by Napoleon in the 18th century.

north-east balkans of the thracian lands are the Getae , the dacians are in the north-west.

this tribe is a chance for albanians to be illyrian
Labeates

Labeates or Labeatae (Greek: Λαβεάται) was an Illyrian tribe that lived (after being defeated by Parmenio) around Scodra.[65]


or these


Taulantii


Tribes in southern Illyris and Epirus.


Taulantii (Greek Ταυλάντιοι) was the name of a cluster[69] of Illyrian tribes. According to Greek mythology Taulas (Tαύλας), one of the six sons of Illyrius, was the eponymous ancestor of the Taulanti.[70] They lived on the Adriatic coast of Illyria (modern Albania), between to the vicinity[71] of the city of Epidamnus (modern Durrës). This tribe played an important role in Illyrian history of the 4th-3rd centuries BC,when King Glaukias (335 BC- 302 BC) ruled over them. This tribe had become bilingual being under the effects of an early Hellenisation.[26] Taulantii could prepare mead, wine from honey like the Abri.[72]


King Glaucias of Taulantii
Reignc.335 BC – c.302 BC
GreekΓλαυκίας
PredecessorPleuratus I
SuccessorBardyllis II
ConsortBeroea
FatherPleuratus I


married a royal molossian epirote princess Beroea

Now, you can continue your natiolist views and argue with the epirot Greeks on this forum ................I thought you where different....oh well you are the same as the rest.

BTW ...refrain from insulting people

Ok as starters from XI century is noted the local name Arbër not the Illyrians and this name comes almost 100% from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi whose dwelling by the historians are "the lands behind Dyrrachion" or more or less middle Albania. Next time read carefully.

Your exact words said:
another associated tribe somewhere in the northeast balkans.

Second, Dacians were in north-east, unless east is the new west and west the new east which would mean Romania is in north-west and Croatia in north-east

There is no last chance of being this or that. What is this an war ultimatum? You say they are Albanian is not Illyrian so at least say what it is.

And to end, do you know what could the name of this princes mean? Is it greek or smth?
 
Ok as starters from XI century is noted the local name Arbër not the Illyrians and this name comes almost 100% from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi whose dwelling by the historians are "the lands behind Dyrrachion" or more or less middle Albania. Next time read carefully.


Second, Dacians were in north-east, unless east is the new west and west the new east which would mean Romania is in north-west and Croatia in north-east

There is no last chance of being this or that. What is this an war ultimatum? You say they are Albanian is not Illyrian so at least say what it is.

And to end, do you know what could the name of this princes mean? Is it greek or smth?

yes Albanoi , first mentioned by the roman historians in 150CE ..............whats your point?

The thracians where divided with 4 main groups, Getae in the NE next to the black sea, Odyssian in the SE , Dacian in the NW and Moesian in the SW..........this is how it is for the the period of the illyrians.

If you are talking older...much much older in time, then 80% of balkan lands was thracian and the rests hellenic

I agree with Alfoldy and wilkins, albanians adopted the term as illyrian after they migrated into the area. I already ststed where I think they are from .............I suspect they are one of the thracian tribes who where named something else prior to 150CE
 
yes Albanoi , first mentioned by the roman historians in 150CE ..............whats your point?

The thracians where divided with 4 main groups, Getae in the NE next to the black sea, Odyssian in the SE , Dacian in the NW and Moesian in the SW..........this is how it is for the the period of the illyrians.

If you are talking older...much much older in time, then 80% of balkan lands was thracian and the rests hellenic

I agree with Alfoldy and wilkins, albanians adopted the term as illyrian after they migrated into the area. I already ststed where I think they are from .............I suspect they are one of the thracian tribes who where named something else prior to 150CE

First, no migration recorded on the area where speaking and most importantly Thracian words are LOANS in Albanian. How can Albanian be a Thracian language when Daco-Thracian words are loans. Enlighten...or were north-east thracian tribes speaking a language extremely different from Thracian and Dacian?

Also you didn't answer the Q about the princess name...

And just to add here:

It's a study of Universtity of California about "The Geography of Recent Genetic ancestry across Europe". An interesting study who among other notes:

There are many other possible signals in these data, here we focus on only afew.The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations as do individuals in other parts of Europe, implying that the Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek samples (and to a lesser degree, the Macedonians) share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly due to smaller efects of the Slavic expansion
in these populations. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives (Hamp, 1966) that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek. The \origin" of modern-day Albanians is contentious; it is argued for instance that they are descended in large part from the Illyrians (Wilkes, 1996) who populated the eastern side of the Adriatic sea and part of modern-day Salento (Italy) during Roman times. Our results are certainly consistent with this view, including the fact that Italians share more common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other 15 populations (although these ancestors are estimated to be from the last 1,500 years), so this may reflect
more recent migration.

Full article

And just remind that this is the University of California and not some Balkanik pseudo-genetist

Also note what the report states

The \origin" of modern-day Albanians is contentious; it is argued for instance that they are descended in large part from the Illyrians (Wilkes, 1996) who populated the eastern side of the Adriatic sea and part of modern-day Salento (Italy) during Roman times. Our results are certainly consistent with this view

That word is the most important part.
 
First, no migration recorded on the area where speaking and most importantly Thracian words are LOANS in Albanian. How can Albanian be a Thracian language when Daco-Thracian words are loans. Enlighten...or were north-east thracian tribes speaking a language extremely different from Thracian and Dacian?

Also you didn't answer the Q about the princess name...

loan words , what the issue here with linguistics, you think all people named as thracian spoke thracian?. you still have nationalistcs problems to clear.
nationality only started in the 18th century, it was not around until then.

loan words......take italian, it is ALL loaned words from the different italian regional languages and some vaulgar latin ( as well as all other migrating of neighbourly people) . They are italian due to geography not culture. Same with Illyrians, thracians etc
Example , how many different cultures made up the gothic armies that invaded and destroyed the roman empire. do not think that these where all east-germanic and nordic people


what Q - the name is from the internet ....consort is wife, partner, mother to his children
 
First, no migration recorded on the area where speaking and most importantly Thracian words are LOANS in Albanian. How can Albanian be a Thracian language when Daco-Thracian words are loans. Enlighten...or were north-east thracian tribes speaking a language extremely different from Thracian and Dacian?

Also you didn't answer the Q about the princess name...

And just to add here:

It's a study of Universtity of California about "The Geography of Recent Genetic ancestry across Europe". An interesting study who among other notes:



Full article

And just remind that this is the University of California and not some Balkanik pseudo-genetist

Also note what the report states



That word is the most important part.

1500 years only takes this to around 500CE ........you are missing 350years if you want to link the first notification of albanoi
 
Ok as starters from XI century is noted the local name Arbër not the Illyrians and this name comes almost 100% from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi whose dwelling by the historians are "the lands behind Dyrrachion" or more or less middle Albania. Next time read carefully.



Second, Dacians were in north-east, unless east is the new west and west the new east which would mean Romania is in north-west and Croatia in north-east

There is no last chance of being this or that. What is this an war ultimatum? You say they are Albanian is not Illyrian so at least say what it is.

And to end, do you know what could the name of this princes mean? Is it greek or smth?


you say say about Albanoi as Illyrians?
Name me one Historian that say that Albanoi were Illyrians,
Only Ptolemy places Albanopolis in area but from the others cities around we jnow He speak about Germidava or Thermidava,
No one else before 1340 speaks about Albania

The only known Albo people from ancient times are the Maximus of Moesia a Roman who speaks about a Getan-Dacian tribe named Albocense
Next is Ptolemy who places a city Albanopolis which from the other cities around we know that was the Arbanon that Anna komnena speaks, it was Germidava or Thermidava in North of Albania and has nothing to do with Illyrians and Epirotes
after this in 1050 Anna komnena speaks about Arbanon (Urbanon)
and then at 1340 we find again the Albanoi

THE ONLY ANCIENT TRIBE CONNECTED WITH ALBANO IS A MOESIAN TRIBE ALBOCENSE

in the area they lived today exist cities with names ALBA like ALBA LULLIA and others
ANJOU WHO CREATED THE STATE OF ALBA, AS ALSO HUNJADES, AS ALSO LEK DUKAGJIN WERE FROM THAT AREA,
WHEN THEY LOST THE WAR AGAINST OTTOMANS
 
Reason #3 Greek Borrowings

The same argument goes for borrowings from DORIC greek, which mean Illyrians/Albanians were living near northwestern Greece since times of antiquity. P.S. Remember while Epirus and Macedonia were Greek states, only the ruling class were greek, the rest of the population were of Illyrian/Macedonian stock.(I'm uncertain whether the two had any relationship)

.


Pellatab.jpg



WATCH CAREFULLY

THE ABOVE IS NOT A RULLING CLASS DOCUMENT NEITHER A THEOCRATIC AS ZEUS10 SAY LANGUAGE

IS A COMMON MAKEDONIAN DIALECT LANGUAGE SPOKEN MUCH BEFORE ALEXANDER AND PHILLIP

IT A SIMPLE CURSE WHICH MADE BY AN ANONYMOUS WOMEN TO BIND HER LOVER

RULLING CLASS DON"T DO THIS

ENOUGH WITH STUPIDITY OF SLAVIC AND PARASLAVIC LANGUAGES

WATCH CAREFULLY

ALEXANDER ΑΛΕΞ+ΑΝΔΡΟΣ = PROTECT MEN = HE WHO PROTECTS THE MEN

LEK AND LEKKA watch end -ek
LIKE POLISH BOLEK LOLEK -EK IS FAMOUS SLAVIC ENDING
SEARCH THE NAME OF RUSSIAN PATRIARCHS IS ALEK+S LIKE ALBANIAN LEKA it miss the Andros
so the nationalistic stupidity must end sometime!

LEK as name is showing us the East part of Albanian language the next to scythian and Sarmatian, the once you afraid to claim due to recent events with Slavs
Lek is a Slavic name not a Greek neither Illyrian end in -ek like many Poland Chech Slovak names

EXCEPT IF SLAVIC LANGUAGE EXISTED BEFORE THE 5TH CENTURY AD in Balkans

Nationalist stupidity sometimes has its limit.

ELEMENTS OF ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE WE FIND AT KALLASHA PEOPLE

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY SPEAK ILLYRIAN OR ALBANIAN?
ALL SCIENTISTS SPEAK ABOUT a ARYAN LANGUAGE WITH SOUNDS LIKE GREEK ESPECIALLY THE S Δ !!!!
IF ancient Makedonians were Albano-Illyrians then KALLASHA would name Alexander as Lek which is easy, and not as they call him,

except the katadesmos, except all ancient writers, and especially Hesychius of Alexandreia, Kallasha is vivid document of ancient Makedonian. search the elements and aspirations and grammatical and syntax, you will find mainly older Aryan not Indian and second Greek, how come if Makedonians were rulling class the soldiers which is a low class pass Greek sounds and elements in Kallasha and not Illyrian and why Kallasha name Alexander since he was Lek?

SEARCH KALASHA CULTURE, THEY GET MARRIED THE SAME TIME GREEKS DID,
THEY USE THE SAME ANCIENT CALLENDAR AS MAKEDONIANS AND STILL KEEP SOME THAT ARE LOST IN GREEK, SAME TIME THEY HAVE ARYAN CUSTOMS, analyze them and you will realise an ancient Indo-ARYAN with Lower Thracian and Greek components

I am tired of wrotting again and again the same

Try to avoid Nationalistic in this forum
keep it for other blogs forums
plz stop filling with nationalistic crup areas which try to avoid it


ENOUGH WITH THIS

MODERN ALBANIAN SHOW A GENETICAL CONTINUITY WITH ANCIENT ILLYRIAN
BUT ALSO SHOW A LINGUISTIC BREAK FROM ANCIENT ILLYRIAN


ACCCEPT IT

THERE IS NO PURE RACE, IN BALKANS,


AND TO FINALIZE

SEARCH THE WORD BESA exists only in Albanian language,
the only simmilar word that we find from ancient times is Βησιοι
 
I am tired of nationalistic Stupidity that runs through the Brain of Some,

Greek Olympus is mountain and not Olympia
Olympus exist in Cyprus minor Asia (turkey)


I lir means free, so the land is iliria after free?
and the peopel are free? from whom? from them shelves?

olympia is where the olympics where held, olympUS was the mountain, sorry I made that mistake, although I dont see how that is nationalistic?
The "i lire" is only a suggestion I didnt stamp it as a fact, and it is not my suggestion nevertheless feel free to look it up in more details.
As it pertains to genetics and haplogroups, that is completely irrelevant here. Y-dna can be used to trace paleolithic and neolithic migrations that happened way before these more modern tribes and kingdoms. we have no idea what each of these tribes' genetical makeup was, whether they were even multi-ethnic for that fact, and were united only by a cultural/linguistical basis. genetics of people even differ within the same country itself, thats why these arguments are completely futile.
 
who cares about slavic migrations into the balkans after 600CE, the discussion was about illyrians and albanians.......you do know that the celts migrated into illyrian lands before the slavs...don't you?............you do know the goths went into the balkans before the slavs ...don't you..........Do you realise the illyrians where already mixing with these celtic and gothic people..........why do you exclude this?

the celts and goths did have an effect although it wasnt nearly as significant as the slavic migrations, which set the boundaries for countries up to this date, thats why i didnt mention those. I dont really see your point here?
 
Try to avoid Nationalistic in this forum
keep it for other blogs forums
plz stop filling with nationalistic crup areas which try to avoid it


ENOUGH WITH THIS

MODERN ALBANIAN SHOW A GENETICAL CONTINUITY WITH ANCIENT ILLYRIAN
BUT ALSO SHOW A LINGUISTIC BREAK FROM ANCIENT ILLYRIAN


ACCCEPT IT

THERE IS NO PURE RACE, IN BALKANS,


AND TO FINALIZE

SEARCH THE WORD BESA exists only in Albanian language,
the only simmilar word that we find from ancient times is Βησιοι

Just because there was a comment about the greek language borrowings, it doesnt make this thread nationalistic. I dont understand what youre trying to get at. When did I say there was a pure race in the balkans? I specifically said I will try to establish the continuity based on a historical/linguistic basis. I also never said there was a link between Illyrian and Macedonian, I said Im not sure of any link between them. The concept of besa was also found in celtic and germanic tribes - search john bassett trumper albanian language on youtube for this -. For the rest, I dont see what youre trying to get at dude.... If I offended you because I mentioned the word greek and the greek language, Im sorry then.
 
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