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    Question (offtopic from Venedi)



    hi guys

    sorry for not writing, was and still am too busy at work. hope you are all well, happy and healthy

    taranis

    What? Yetos, no offense to you, but I do not understand in the slightest how, after being here for such a relatively long time, and with substantial exposure (both here and likely elsewhere) to information about genetics, about languages and about archaeology, you could believe such completely outlandish ideas that have no footing in reality. Because it stands in complete opposition to the picture that archaeology, genetics, linguistics, and indeed historical sources of Antiquity tell us.
    you are unreal. you are so full of yourself i don't believe that you will ever be able to acquire any new knowledge because you filter out everything that doesn't agree with your dogma. so the following is not for you. for the others who like exploring interesting ideas here is something i found recently and which i think is worth exploring further.

    ...Amalgamation, Mixing, and Intermingling

    Indo-Europeans invaded Germany from the southeast around 3000 BC, and here they intermingled with the local Berbers, "producing a number of mixed cultures in the process," as far south as Switzerland (Owen, 31). Owen refers to this as an "amalgamation" of the Berber and Indo-European peoples (Owen, 45). By 1700 BC, a new culture had appeared in Denmark, southern Sweden, and northern Germany, known as the "Northern Bronze Age." German archaeologist Herbert Schutz notes that this Bronze Age culture arose from the "intermingling of groups of people," including the Indo-European migrants from the east, and the "megalith-builders," whose Berber background is well- established (Schutz, 155). Beyond a doubt the Northern Bronze Age was "the ancestral civilization of the Germanic peoples" (Skomal, 218f), so the link between Berbers and Germans has been proven. Or, at the very least, it has been established as a reasonable working hypothesis. It is not some bizarre tangent or Erich von Dänikenesque lunacy. It is a scientific theory with professional support.


    Germanic peoples speak Germanic languages, and it has long been recognized that a substantial pre-Indo- European component exists in those languages. Piergiuseppe Scardigli estimates that a full 40% of the basic ancient Germanic vocabulary is not Indo-European, but rather comes from some other source. This includes such basic words as land, rain, path, silver, and word (Scardigli, 103f). Edgar Polomé finds it "obvious" that Germanic retains traces of the language spoken by the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Denmark and northern Germany (Polomé 1986, 661).


    Are there any linguistic links between Berber and German? Berber, like the related Semitic languages, uses vowel mutation to express a change of meaning. Thus amagur (camel) becomes imugar (camels). This same feature is characteristic of Germanic languages as well; thus English man/men, foot/feet, write/wrote, etc. In The Loom of Language, Bodmer observes that Germanic and Semitic share this distinctive feature (Bodmer, 429) which is, needless to say, uncommon in other Indo-European languages. Based on its traces in Germanic, Eric Hamp reconstructs the pre-Indo-European language of northern Europe as one in which there was a four-vowel system with no distinct "o," and which used the same words for deictic and relative pronouns (Markey and Greppin, 296ff). Guess what? Berber has a four-vowel system with no "o" and uses the same words for deictic and relative pronouns.


    Many pre-Indo-European root words surviving in Germanic can be traced back to an Afro-Asiatic source (the parent language family of Berber). An excellent example is the word silver, which comes from Berber azerfa. This term was apparently spread throughout Western Europe by the Beaker Folk, who traded in silver (Cardona, 293). Berber words in Germanic include:



    EARLY GERMANIC ~ AFRO-ASIATIC (Proto-Berber)

    baus (bad, evil, useless; German böse) ~ ba's (calamity, misfortune)
    ela (eel) ~ 'il (snake)
    gawi (district; German Gau) ~ gawad (land, with epenthesis)
    kelikn (loft, upper story) ~ qal'a (fortress, hill, citadel [Skomal, 223ff])
    land (land, country) ~ lha'nt (grassland, with collective suffix)
    paþa (path) ~ put (to step along)
    preu (awl, piercing tool) ~ par (to separate, cut apart, make an opening)
    regen (rain; German Regen) ~ rayyn (well-watered, with noun suffix)
    sek (to cut, mow; English sickle) ~ tsîk (to pluck up)
    silver (silver) ~ azerfa (silver)
    summer (summer) ~ asammar (hot weather)
    werð (word) ~ werd (to call out)


    Germans are not the only West European nation deeply influenced by Berber culture. Celtic is especially rich in Berberisms. Even a common Irish word like aue, "grandson," comes from the Berber aouwi, "son." This is, by the way, the root of the Irish prefix Ó, still found in Irish names like O'Reilly this most common "Irish" word is actually Berber! Irish tribal names like Uí Máine, Uí Faoláin, and Uí Néill, seem to have been patterned after the Berber collective prefix found in Ait Frah, Ait Ouriaghel, and Aït Ndhir (Adams 1975, 240ff). According to world-renowned scholar Julius Pokorny, it is "from every point of view impossible" that the Celts were the earliest inhabitants of Ireland; the Berbers came first (Pokorny, 229). He reminds us that the Megalithic inhabitants of Éire were long- headed Mediterraneans, who "still form the principal element in the population of North Africa." There are many customs in common between Celts and Berbers, Pokorny assures us, including "queer sexual morals" (Pokorny 232f). Welsh scholars have also affirmed "the kinship of the early inhabitants of Britain to the North African white race" (Sergi, 246), while the linguistic evidence of nouns, verbs, infixed pronouns, pre-verbs, consonant quality, and lenition of consonants all proves "close relations between Berber and Insular Celtic" (Pokorny, 236ff). Talossans of Celtic descent can rejoice in their Berber ancestry too.


    Especially in their syntax, Celtic, Spanish, Basque, Portuguese, French and English have all been deeply affected by this same "Atlantic" substratum, which Gessman calls "almost certainly Hamitic" (Gessman, 7). And so, although modern Talossans might not knowingly speak a word of Berber (or Talossan), every time we open our mouths to speak, we confess our ancient Berber heritage!
    http://www.provincuns.com/books/berber-project.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    hi guys

    sorry for not writing, was and still am too busy at work. hope you are all well, happy and healthy

    taranis



    you are unreal. you are so full of yourself i don't believe that you will ever be able to acquire any new knowledge because you filter out everything that doesn't agree with your dogma. so the following is not for you. for the others who like exploring interesting ideas here is something i found recently and which i think is worth exploring further.
    Dublin,

    No offense, but how am I supposed to react when a board member suggests that the Proto-Germanic homeland was actually first located in southeastern Europe and that the Proto-Germanic peoples only migrated later to their usually presumed homeland. And this hypothesis is then mainly based on the superficial similarity of the ethnic names "Getae" and "Gothones". If you consider what plethora evidence the usual Germanic homeland is based on, how likely is it that archaeologists, linguists etc. (and perhaps, most importantly, classical writers in Antiquity) up to this point got it all wrong? I think it requires quite a bit of a stretch to assume such.

    On a purely theoretical level of course, that possibility that people are simply wrong always exists. But, having an interesting new idea is all cool and merry as long as you can test it. If you have no way to test it, there's no point in it either way. Also, you shouldn't be upset when somebody points out that your hypothesis stands on very shaky legs (at best). Likewise, if somebody has proven your hypothesis as clearly wrong, there's no point in sticking to it.

    Does any of the above warrant calling me a dogmatic? No. Does that warrant to attempt to insult me or other board members? I don't think so either.


    I actually find that interesting (though, both the hypotheses that there's an Afroasiatic substrate in Insular Celtic or in Proto-Germanic are not exactly new, wether they're accurate is another matter), and, I thank you for sharing this. But, I can tell you off-hand that the proposed Berber-Germanic cognates don't work because they're in clear violation with Grimm's Law. Or more accurately, they'd all have entered the Proto-Germanic language after Grimm's Law occured.

    If you think there's a good reason why Grimm's Law might have occured as early as the start of the bronze age (because that's basically what it'd take here), I'd like to hear that.

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    taranis

    germanic languages are conglomerate. they are mix of berber - funnel beaker - atlantean - west mediteranean and slavic - indoeuropean - east mediteranean languages. there has been a lot of work done on this.

    you should read the book. particularly the part about the period 8000 - 5000 bc

    here is more from the book

    The early Capsian culture first entered into southern and eastern Spain, and probably indicates the first invasion of the Mediterranean race into that country. The later and final phases of the Capsian culture extended northward into France, where its miniature flint implements appear in the Azilian stations of Ariège, and in the Tardenoisian fishing flints of France, Belgium, and the British Isles. These Western European cultures were almost certainly developed in Africa and brought from there (Obermaier, x-xi). Dr. Francis Owen confirms that during the Mesolithic Age, "there was a new invasion of Europe by people from the Southern Mediterranean. These were the bearers of the microlithic culture, a late development of the Capsian" (Owen, 18). These people, known as the "Tardenoisians," used distinctive arrowheads, fish-hooks, and other tools, and spread their culture throughout Germany as far as Poland. In the words of J.G.D. Clark, the advent of the Tardenoisian culture in Northern Europe was "almost certainly" the result of "movements of people from North Africa" (Clark 1970b, 214f).


    Between 6800 and 5000 BC, the Tardenoisian culture reached its fullest flowering in Northern Europe, where it is known as the "Maglemose Culture," after a site in Denmark. The Maglemose folk had a rich culture adapted to life in the northern forests and plains, and spread across Denmark, southern Sweden, the Low Countries, England, Ireland, northeast France, northern Germany, Poland, Estonia and Finland. Their definite "heartland" was in northern Germany and Denmark (Clark 1970b, 86ff). After a detailed weighing of all the evidence, Clark pronounces the source of the Maglemose culture to be, at least in part, "probably in North Africa" (Clark 1970b, 132).


    Maglemose art utilized the same geometric patterns--especially triangles and chevrons—which characterize North African Berber art. The realistic depictions of animals in Maglemose art are virtually identical with contemporary Iberian art, and derive "probably ultimately from North Africa" (Clark 1970b, 167-180). This astonishing homogeneity of culture spreading from North Africa to Finland "can only be explained on an ethnic basis" (Clark 1970b, 214f). Similarities between Berber and Germanic art and culture have forced some archaeologists into wild hypotheses about German migrations to North Africa (Sergi, 71ff), but it is now clear that the influence was in the other direction. Professor Igor Diakonoff concludes that the mesolithic "Atlanto-Baltic white race" spoke Berber (Markey and Greppin, 61). Sergi proclaims that the pre-Indo-European natives of northern Europe were definitely Berbers, and that their influence lingers in the Germanic peoples. In Norway and Sweden, "the remains of the ancient stock of African origin are very numerous, even more than in northern Germany" (Sergi, 243f).


    Through this line, most modern Talossans can trace their ancestry directly to Berbers. The Indo-Europeans who later occupied Scandinavia and Germany did not exterminate the earlier, Berber-speaking inhabitants; they absorbed them. Forde-Johnston notes that Scandinavian Nordics are so similar to the African Berber Nordics, that "the two must share a common origin" (Forde-Johnston, 101). Owen also links Berbers and Germans directly when he states that the pre-Indo-European natives of north Europe, who had their "origin in the Southern Mediterranean area," were "in part the ancestors of the Germanic people" (Owen, 23). Berbers are among our ancestors!


    More research is necessary to show exactly how far-ranging our Berber ancestors were. The Pelasgians, who inhabited Greece before the arrival of the Greeks, were possibly Berbers. When Sergi proposed this in 1901, he was ridiculed. Yet the explanatory power of his hypothesis would not go away, and recently linguist Eric Hamp has produced more evidence in its favour. He says the Pelasgian language belongs in the same "aggregate" as that of the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Northern Europe (Markey and Greppin, 294). The ancient Greek historian Herodotus referred to the Pelasgians as BARBAROI, which can either mean "Barbarians" or "Berbers" (the word is ambiguous; Sergi, 167). There is evidence that the Etruscans were Berbers too (Sergi, 162ff). But for our purposes, we shall concentrate on the Berbers of Western Europe and their outposts in the Atlantic...

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    Big Rocks: The Megalith Bewegung

    By about 5000 BC, North Africa and Western Europe shared a single culture and language, which was doubtlessly Berber. At this point the focus of our story shifts to the Iberian peninsula. Agriculture reached Iberia at about that time (MacKie, 39), and the peninsula became the focus of two great social movements which affected all of prehistoric Western Europe. The first was the "Megalithic" culture responsible for the great "Megaliths" (i.e. "Big Rocks") at Stonehenge and elsewhere; the second was the "Beaker Groups" who left archaeological traces of themselves all over the region.

    The so-called "Megalithic" culture began to develop among the Iberians in what is now Portugal, sometime around 4500 (MacKie, 38). Though there was undoubtedly a North African component to the culture (MacKie, 162), it was an indigenous development, not inspired by the cultures of the Eastern Mediterranean (Trump, 102). It spread rapidly by sea, up and down the Atlantic seaboard of Europe, as a glance at Map 2 will easily demonstrate (MacKie, 187ff); Megalithic "seafarers" carried their culture up and down the Atlantic coast from the Canary Islands in the south to Ireland in the north (Willcox, 48). The Greek philosopher Plato's account of "Atlantis" may in fact be a distorted memory of Megalithism; Plato remembered "Atlantis" as ruling over Europe west of Tuscany, and North Africa west of Egypt, a remarkably accurate appraisal of the greatest extent of Megalith culture (Gordon, 43).


    Megalithism spread alongside agriculture. Neolithic farmers reached the British Isles at the same time as Megaliths began to be constructed in that region (MacKie, 168ff). Ethnically speaking, who where these Megalith builders? Evidently they were Iberian Berbers (MacKie, 168). G.B. Adams identifies them as "Hamitic" (Adams 1975, 235), i.e. Berber, and the world-renowned prehistorian Dr. Glyn Daniel concludes that "It seems certain that the megalith builders did not speak an Indo-European language. We should expect them to speak a Mediterranean language, some pre-Indoeuropean language which may have survived to the present day as Berber or as Basque" (Daniel, 131). Even skeptics consider the idea of Berber Megalith-builders "a not unreasonable working hypothesis" (Adams 1975, 247).


    Megalithism was almost certainly an "evangelical" religious movement, dominated by a stable caste of professional priests and wise men who settled among, and over, the neolithic peasant populations of Atlantic Europe (MacKie, 162f). This priesthood lived in "monasteries," supported by tithing from the farmers (MacKie, Ch. 11).


    The geographic extent of Megalithic Berber culture is sobering (Map 2). "Megalithism" spread across North Africa and the whole of Western Europe, from Iberia to France, the Italian Alps, Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, the Balearic Islands, Switzerland, the Low Countries, Germany, lower Scandinavia, and the British Isles. Virtually every person who has ever become a citizen of Talossa can trace his or her ancestry back to one or more of these regions. In a very real sense, we may all be physically, genetically descended from the Mediterranean and Atlantic Berbers who added their genes to the pool wherever they went. Perhaps Talossa today is a kind of long-dormant Berber racial memory crying out for reunification?


    At some point between 4000 and 2600, the Spanish Capsian culture--the less-developed Berber neolithic culture of eastern Spain who had been left behind by the dramatic expansion of their western Megalithic cousins—began to evolve into a new force, called the Almerían (Trump, 99; Childe, 267ff; Castro, 12). This was a "chalcolithic" culture, meaning that it used copper in addition to stone for making tools (Trump, 99). The Megalith culture had resisted the use of copper, and remained mired in its primitive, stone-age ways. Around 2600, the Megalithic social network collapsed and its heartland, southern Portugal, adopted the chalcolithic lifestyle (Castro, 35; MacKie, 170f). Megalithic culture survived longest in the British Isles, where it finally went extinct around 2000 BC—at about which time it left its most magnificent monument, Stonehenge (MacKie, 171).

    Chapter 3: Funnel-Necked Beaker People.
    According to V. Gordon Childe, the Almerían culture of Spain was the direct source for the social movement we call the "Beaker Groups" (Childe, 267ff). Trump, however, suggests that the Beaker Groups originated in Portugal, and attacked the Almerían cities (Trump, 152). Cunliffe suggests a harmony of the two theories, wherein the Beaker Groups originated in Portugal spreading quickly back to North Africa and then moved east to encounter the already complex chalcolithic cultures of the Almeríans, in their elaborate fortified centres; the two cultures then peacefully merged (Cunliffe, 256). Whatever the case, early Beaker culture artifacts are found in Tunisia, and the ethnic and cultural roots of the Beaker Groups were self-evidently Berber. Many cultural traits, such as the design of their arrowheads, link North Africa's Berbers to the Beaker Groups (Childe, 280). G.B. Adams refers to them as "Libyco-Berber" (Adams 1975, 236). Forde-Johnston concludes that the "most reasonable" explanation for the Beaker culture is that it is of "mixed Spanish and African ancestry" (Forde-Johnston, 101).


    The new wave of Berbers expanded rapidly; around 3000 they had already invaded southern France with their "tastefully decorated" pottery, settling thickly in the Aude, Hérault, and lower Rhône (Trump, 148f). Here their tribes survived into Roman times, especially the Tolosati, who lent their name to the city of Tolosa (French: Toulouse); and the Tolossæ, who lived in what is now Provence. That the tribes of this region were not Celtic (as is often supposed) is revealed by the fact that the Celtic Gauls who always called themselves the Com-broges, or "fellow-countrymen" (whence Cymru, "Welsh") referred to one of the local tribes as Allo-broges, or "other-countrymen," i.e. "non- Celts." Other tribal names show similarities as well; in Roman times there was a Salassii (i.e. "Talassii"?) tribe of Berbers in North Africa, and also a Salassi ("Talassi"?) tribe of unknown origin living in what is now the Val d'Aosta, in the Occitan-speaking French/Italian border region (Gsell 1:325).


    In the Iberian Peninsula itself, Beaker Groups became famous for their construction of motillas, which were a kind of fortified burial mound (Castro, 106f). The building of mounds was a hallmark of Berber and Berber-inspired cultures around the globe. Known today among African Berbers as djidar (Ucel, 67f; this appears to be an Arabic word), these mounds were built not only in Africa but throughout the first Berber expansion known as Megalithism. While the ancient cultures of the Eastern Mediterranean buried their noble dead in rock-hewn tombs, the Megalith-builders built rock tombs but sealed them inside large earthen mounds (MacKie, 146).


    The Beaker Folk's beakers, of course, were more famous than their mounds. The beakers were drinking vessels, pottery versions of what had long been woven in North Africa out of esparto grass (Trump, 155). They were used for "something like mead, flavoured with herbs such as meadowsweet or wild fruits" (Cunliffe, 253). Alcoholic drinks were clearly a factor in the Beaker Groups' expansion and social acceptance. In North Africa, Berbers produced beakers in exactly the same style and fashion as their European contemporaries (McBurney, 249ff). They decorated them with distinctive "hatched triangles" and other designs (Kennedy 1971, 268). The classic Beaker design was rather bell-shaped, so most Beaker People are referred to as "Bell-Beaker People." This is in distinction to the "Funnel-Necked Beaker People," who arose in Germany and Denmark as a fusion between Berbers and immigrant Indo-Europeans. (It was their beakers, rather than the people themselves, who were funnel-necked.)


    The Beaker Folk were fundamentally traders, and wherever they went, they were welcomed not as hated conquerers but as friends. They formed stable outposts, and their tombs contain multiple generations of family members (Trump, 151). Beaker people tended not to settle in large numbers, except in certain places such as the Rhône valley and the Gulf of Lyon region, i.e. Toulouse (Trump, 153). But what they lacked in population density they made up for in geographic reach (Map 2). The Berber Beaker People established complex trading networks, and the diverse regions of Western Europe and North Africa were united as never before (Cunliffe, 256). Ivory and ostrich egg shells were highly prized luxuries, and the only source was North Africa, where eager Beaker traders did a booming business (Markotic, 91ff). Indeed, the trade between Africa and Spain even pre-dated the Beaker period (Harrison, 157). Of more importance to our story was their lucrative copper trade: they brought chalcolithic culture to Western Europe (Trump, 148f) and to do so, imported vast amounts of copper. Where did this copper come from? We shall all see!


    Around 2000 BC, the Berbers of North Africa became preoccupied with local affairs and grew in a different direction from their European relations. To the south, a thriving Black civilization, based in the Tassili mountains of southern Algeria, represented the northward expansion of Africans toward the Mediterranean. But by 1500 BC, the Berbers had domesticated the horse, and used it to pull light war chariots. Wearing kilts and armed with spears, the Berbers checked this northward expansion and took control of the arid Saharan steppes, exploiting it for nomadic pastoralism. Their new technology and stratified society "enabled them to subjugate the existing black population.... [W]e are dealing here with a warrior aristocracy which had gained ascendancy over the black groups of the Sahara: this is the first instance of a pattern which has been repeated to the present day" (Brett and Fentress, 17ff).


    By contrast the Beaker Berbers of Spain had begun to decline (Trump, 223), though related groups remained active. In the Balearic Islands, for example, the local inhabitants were building fortified towers, known as talayots (Trump, 225ff); these so-called "Talaiotic" people survived well into the Christian era (Anderson, 131). A similar culture flourished in next-door Sardinia (Trump, 217). It is important to remember that the native, pre-Roman inhabitants of Sardinia were in all likelihood Berbers (Harris and Vincent, 345; Tagliavini, 124). If the ancient Balearans were also Berbers, which seems likely, then the name of their towers--talayots--may preserve a reminder of what these ancients called themselves.

    Stagnant and Backward

    Alas, the Berbers of Iberia and Western Europe were eventually reduced to little more than a collection of place-names, after the massive invasion of Indo-Europeans that came from the east. A culture known to archaeologists as the "Únêtice-Tumulus-Urnfield Culture" (Urnfielders, for short) emerged in central Europe and was "marked by expansion"; by 1600 BC there was "extensive unrest" in the region and within fifty years the Urnfielders exploded to the west. In the face of the Urnfielders--marauding head-hunters from the East (Castro, 123)--the Berbers disappeared like the American Indian (Schutz, 133ff). The Urnfielders who settled in the upper Rhine, Gaul, and (eventually) Iberia were Celts (Gimbutas, 339f). As we shall see in the next chapter, these invasions generated a huge wave of refugees who fled to a place which is near and dear to our modern Talossan hearts.


    In central Spain, after the decline of the Beaker culture, many of its traits were preserved by groups whom the archaeologists call the Las Cogotes culture (Castro, 132-138). It will not surprise us to learn that one of their most important sites is called Berbeia (Castro, 132f). This last outpost of Berber Beakerdom began declining after 1100 BC, when it was invaded by the head-hunting Urnfielders (Castro, 123). By 700 BC, the Las Cogotes Beaker Groups had been destroyed (Castro, 131-137). At about the same time, Celts overran the rest of Gaul, where the local Berber culture had become "stagnant and backward" (Trump, 220).


    The Indo-European invaders absorbed the Berbers wherever they went. Only the hardy mountaineering Basques (who aren't Berbers) could withstand the Indo-European onslaught. The Picts, who preserved their non-Indo-European language in Scotland till the Middle Ages, may have been Berber in origin. The Berbers of Spain regrouped and even flourished; the Bible speaks of the trading fleets of Tarshish, an Iberian port on the Atlantic Ocean that was constructed as early as 1100 BC (Castro, 179). The native name for Tarshish was Tarseia (Warmington, 24), and as "r" and "l" were interchangeable in Iberian (Anderson, 122), the name was actually Talseia, i.e., "Talossa." The Talseian written language was clearly derived from Berber (Jensen, 158f). But the Talseians were conquered by the Punic-speaking Carthaginians, and later by the Romans; their Berber speech died out during the reign of Augustus Caesar, who died in 14 AD (Anderson, 131).


    In Africa the Berbers are still around, of course, and they have made great contributions to world history. St. Augustine was a Berber, as was his rival Donatus of Casæ Nigræ, founder of the "Donatist" Christian Church. In the seventh century the Arabs invaded; the Berbers embraced Islam and thereby seceded permanently from Western civilization, but established successful Islamic empires like the Almohads and Almoravids. Ironically the Spanish victory which sealed the doom of the Moors (most of whom were actually Berber) in Spain, in the year 1212, took place at Los Navos de Tolosa! Later on the Hilali Arabs invaded and ravaged North Africa, reducing it to the simplest sort of goat herding. Today Berbers are manning the front lines against Islamic fundamentalism in Algeria.

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    in it's book atlantean irish, bob quin gives numerous examples of similarities between irish (so called celtic but actually gaelic or berber) culture and north african berber culture. i would really recommend that you buy the book (20 euro) and read it. he also retells stories of irish speaking people being able to communicate with berbers as recently as 19th century. the dialects were so similar still at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    in it's book atlantean irish, bob quin gives numerous examples of similarities between irish (so called celtic but actually gaelic or berber) culture and north african berber culture. i would really recommend that you buy the book (20 euro) and read it. he also retells stories of irish speaking people being able to communicate with berbers as recently as 19th century. the dialects were so similar still at that time.
    Well Dublin, on behalf of the other moderators, I think we have had enough of fairy tales for a day. Closed.

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