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Thread: Were the Irish pure R1b before the Viking and British invasions ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by inver2b1 View Post
    I thought the surnames O'Grady and O'Driscoll turned up in one of the old I2a2 clades.
    Regarding M284, some of that I'd say came from Scotland. I'm one of the names on your M284+ list (I'm I2-L126) and my two closest matches are a Scottish surname which is expected as my clade is called Scots. Planatation aside there has been a lot of back and forth mgrations between Scotland and the North of Ireland.
    One reason that R1b came to dominate might be that enough of it got into powerful gaelic families where males had concubines or a gaelic equivalent and had a lot of children who also went on to do the same.
    O'Grady and O'Driscoll actually turn up in reasonable numbers in L161 I2a1b2-Isles. I think O'Grady is more 'C' and 'D' subclade and O'Driscoll more 'A'.

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    Roche in French means Rock, or Stone. A castle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    In total, that is 1160 foreign lineages out of 4700, or 24.7% of the Irish population. This is far more than I expected. But of course that is only paternal lineages, which foreign invaders have surely spread much more abundantly than maternal lineages. I did not calculate the proportion of foreign autosomal DNA in the Irish gene pool, but I would guess between something like 15% (more in Northern Ireland and around Dublin, of course - perhaps over 30%).
    A very large proportion of those who are in the Ireland project would be classes as "Scots Irish"/"Ulster Scots" in ancestry. Given the large scale migration during the 18th century from the province of Ulster to North America it's hardly surprising. DNA testing is relatively rare in Ireland, I would imagine that less then 5-10% of our members are actually Irish born. Most of them are members of the diaspora, and the vast majority of those are North American based.

    Regarding percentages if you look at Busby study and work out the averages across his different sample groups from Ireland (some riducolously small) you average about 89-90% that are R1b-M269+

    There is also the fact that many apparant "Foreign surnames" are actually native surnames masquerading. A good example is Smyth/Smith, in large number of cases this is a direct translation of Mac Gabhann (Mac an GHOBHANN == son of the Smith), this name is also anglisced as McGowan. So you end up with situations where in the west of Ireland if you bear the surname King more then likely you are actually are of "Gaelic stock" generally often been Mac Conraoi which is also anglisced directly as Conroy. Woulfe in his 1923 book describes the following processes regarding angliscations.

    1. Phonetically.
    2. By translation.
    3. By attraction.
    4. By assimilation.
    5. By substitution.


    see: http://www.libraryireland.com/names/...h-surnames.php

    The oldest Irish surnames generally date from the 10th and 11th surnames, the most common Irish surnames all pre-date the Cambro-Norman invasion in 1169.

    For example:

    Duffy -> Ó Dubhthaigh (50th most common surname in Ireland) -- early entry I see is January 1097.

    M1097.1

    Flannagan Ruadh Ua Dubhthaigh, successor of Comman, and lector of Tuaim-da-ghualann;


    M1136.2

    Domhnall Ua Dubhthaigh, Archbishop of Connaught, and successor of Ciaran, head of the wisdom and hospitality of the province, died after mass and celebration at Cluain-fearta-Brenainn.


    M1136.23

    Ruaidhri Ua Conchobhair and Uada Ua Concheanainn were taken prisoners by Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair, they being under the protection of the successor of Iarlath and Ua Dubhthaigh, and of the Bachall Buidhe i.e. the yellow staff or crozier, and Ua Domhnallian.


    M1143.12

    His own son, i.e. Ruaidhri, was taken by Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair, in violation of laity and clergy, relics and protection. These were the sureties: Muireadhach Ua Dubhthaigh, with the clergy and laity of Connaught; Tadhg Ua Briain, lord of Thomond; Tighearnan Ua Ruairc, lord of Breifne; and Murchadh, son of Gilla-na-naemh Ua Fearghail, lord of Muintir-Anghaile. The clergy of Connaught, with Muireadhach Ua Dubhthaigh, fasted at Rath-Brenainn, to get their guarantee, but it was not observed for them.




    M1167.10

    A great meeting was convened by Ruaidhri Ua Conchobhair and the chiefs of Leath-Chuinn, both lay and ecclesiastic, and the chiefs of the foreigners at Ath-buidhe-Tlachtgha. To it came the successor of Patrick; Cadhla Ua Dubhthaigh, Archbishop of Connaught; Lorcan Ua Tuathail, Archbishop of Leinster; Tighearnan Ua Ruairc, lord of Breifne; Donnchadh Ua Cearbhaill, lord of Oirghialla; Mac Duinnsleibhe Ua hEochadha, King of Ulidia; Diarmaid Ua Maeleachlainn, King of Teamhair; Raghnall, son of Raghnall, lord of the foreigners. The whole of their gathering and assemblage was thirteen thousand horsemen, of which six thousand were Connaughtmen, four thousand with O'Ruairc, two thousand with Ua Maeleachlainn, four thousand with Ua Cearbhaill and Ua hEochadha, two thousand with Donnchadh Mac Fhaelain, one thousand with the Danes of Ath-cliath. They passed many good resolutions at this meeting, respecting veneration for churches and clerics, and control of tribes and territories, so that women used to traverse Ireland alone; and a restoration of his prey was made by the Ui-Failghe at the hands of the kings aforesaid. They afterwards separated in peace and amity, without battle or controversy, or without any one complaining of another at that meeting, in consequence of the prosperousness of the king, who had assembled these chiefs with their forces at one place
    The above is taken from the Annals of the Four masters. Some of the surnames you can see in those extracts include:
    • Ó Conchobhair == O'Connor
    • Ó Ruairc == O'Rourke
    • Ó Briain == O'Brien
    • Ó Maolseachlainn == O'Loughlin
    • Ó Tuathail = O'Toole
    • Ó Eachadha = Haughey
    • Mac Fhaeláin = Whealan/Phelan
    • Ó Cearbhaill == O'Carroll
    • Ó Fearghail = Farrell
    • Ó Dubhthaigh = Duffy
    • Ó Concheanainn == Concannon


    In general the vast majority of surnames are reckon to date from before the invasion, alot of the ones formed after are either "sub-branching" of major lineages, or for example the gaelicisation of Norman names. So for example from De Burgo (Burke) we get McWilliam, McRedmond, McDavid etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    DNA testing is relatively rare in Ireland, I would imagine that less then 5-10% of our members are actually Irish born. Most of them are members of the diaspora, and the vast majority of those are North American based.

    • Ó Eachadha = Haughey
    • Mac Fhaeláin = Whealan/Phelan
    My great great grandfather, Ó Eachadha = Haughey from County Louth married my great great grandmother, Mac Fhaeláin = Phelan from Couny Kilkenny, in Newark, New Jersey USA in 1830.

    So, yes these DNA results with Irish or Scots-Irish surnames are heavily North American.

    Many of the surnames in my great great grandfather, Ó Eachadha's Catholic parish in Louth are names that would be considered English or Scots, e.g. Clinton and Wallace, but the law at that time required people within 'The Pale' to take English surnames and many did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    A very large proportion of those who are in the Ireland project would be classes as "Scots Irish"/"Ulster Scots" in ancestry. Given the large scale migration during the 18th century from the province of Ulster to North America it's hardly surprising. DNA testing is relatively rare in Ireland, I would imagine that less then 5-10% of our members are actually Irish born. Most of them are members of the diaspora, and the vast majority of those are North American based.

    Regarding percentages if you look at Busby study and work out the averages across his different sample groups from Ireland (some riducolously small) you average about 89-90% that are R1b-M269+

    There is also the fact that many apparant "Foreign surnames" are actually native surnames masquerading. A good example is Smyth/Smith, in large number of cases this is a direct translation of Mac Gabhann (Mac an GHOBHANN == son of the Smith), this name is also anglisced as McGowan. So you end up with situations where in the west of Ireland if you bear the surname King more then likely you are actually are of "Gaelic stock" generally often been Mac Conraoi which is also anglisced directly as Conroy. Woulfe in his 1923 book describes the following processes regarding angliscations.

    1. Phonetically.
    2. By translation.
    3. By attraction.
    4. By assimilation.
    5. By substitution.


    see: http://www.libraryireland.com/names/...h-surnames.php

    The oldest Irish surnames generally date from the 10th and 11th surnames, the most common Irish surnames all pre-date the Cambro-Norman invasion in 1169.

    For example:

    Duffy -> Ó Dubhthaigh (50th most common surname in Ireland) -- early entry I see is January 1097.



    The above is taken from the Annals of the Four masters. Some of the surnames you can see in those extracts include:
    • Ó Conchobhair == O'Connor
    • Ó Ruairc == O'Rourke
    • Ó Briain == O'Brien
    • Ó Maolseachlainn == O'Loughlin
    • Ó Tuathail = O'Toole
    • Ó Eachadha = Haughey
    • Mac Fhaeláin = Whealan/Phelan
    • Ó Cearbhaill == O'Carroll
    • Ó Fearghail = Farrell
    • Ó Dubhthaigh = Duffy
    • Ó Concheanainn == Concannon


    In general the vast majority of surnames are reckon to date from before the invasion, alot of the ones formed after are either "sub-branching" of major lineages, or for example the gaelicisation of Norman names. So for example from De Burgo (Burke) we get McWilliam, McRedmond, McDavid etc.
    I am hesitating for some of these surnames, because I have no enough data by the hand:
    but
    did not be O'ROURKE a name of Viking origin, as FARRELL
    O'Ruadhric (Roderic) or something like that??? and Fearghail put me to think in a gaelic name given to a viking: Dubhghail (Dowell, Dougal(d)...??? "light stranger" opposed to "dark stranger" (Dane) ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I am hesitating for some of these surnames, because I have no enough data by the hand:
    but
    did not be O'ROURKE a name of Viking origin, as FARRELL
    O'Ruadhric (Roderic) or something like that??? and Fearghail put me to think in a gaelic name given to a viking: Dubhghail (Dowell, Dougal(d)...??? "light stranger" opposed to "dark stranger" (Dane) ???
    Yes Moesan O`Rourke is from old Norse origin. I think the first to be listed was "Ruarc" a king of Bréifne ( equivalent to modern Cavan and Leitrim.) They were of the Uí Briúin Bréifne... Ruarcs grandson Sean Fearghal Bréifne was the first to use the name in a hereditary manner. They listed descent from Conn of the Hundred Battles and I think (some-one may correct this if wrong) also to Niall of the Nine Hostages through his brother Brion. Francis J.Byrne however in his book Irish Kings and High Kings thought this dubious. No matter they still have a good pedigree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hope View Post
    Yes Moesan O`Rourke is from old Norse origin. I think the first to be listed was "Ruarc" a king of Bréifne ( equivalent to modern Cavan and Leitrim.) They were of the Uí Briúin Bréifne... Ruarcs grandson Sean Fearghal Bréifne was the first to use the name in a hereditary manner. They listed descent from Conn of the Hundred Battles and I think (some-one may correct this if wrong) also to Niall of the Nine Hostages through his brother Brion. Francis J.Byrne however in his book Irish Kings and High Kings thought this dubious. No matter they still have a good pedigree.
    thanks
    some of these ligneages seam showing alliances between gaelic and viking ligneages
    on an other side, I knew and it is confirmed that a lot of genuine irish surnames were anglicized in more than a way as in every country you have colonized people and colonizators

    PS for Dowell, D(o)ugal(d), maybe I can add Doyle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I am hesitating for some of these surnames, because I have no enough data by the hand:
    but
    did not be O'ROURKE a name of Viking origin, as FARRELL
    O'Ruadhric (Roderic) or something like that??? and Fearghail put me to think in a gaelic name given to a viking: Dubhghail (Dowell, Dougal(d)...??? "light stranger" opposed to "dark stranger" (Dane) ???
    Gall = Foreigner
    Gal = Valour

    Here's an extract from DIL (Dictionary of Irish language -- covering old and middle Irish periods)
    (a) warlike ardour, fury, valour:gail .i. beodacht, O'Dav. 1037 . ecal .i. cen gail, O'Mulc. 354 . ? gal .i. galar ... quia motat mentem, 614 . cruaid a gal, IT i 107.25 . am amnus ar gail ocus gaiscced, 142.1 . addaimet ... do gail ocus do gaisced, FB 11 ( LU 8150 ); in gal ┐ fiuchiud na ferge ... i n-erbruinnib na láech, TTr.² 860 . cor[o] islighea a ngal, CCath. 2493 . bái side bar gail ┐ bar fogail Ailella, TBC 2894 . TFerbe 372 . amail sóersai Daúid de gail claidib Góli, Fél. Ep. 484 . ní dechaid coll cána ar goil ... escaped his val- our , Arch. iii 304.4 . ba gaoth i ngal `he was wise in con- flict ,' Studies 1918, 281 § 11 . ba gal craidi leisperturbation of heart , Cog. 194.25 ; 72.3 . fuair bás ann do ghal retha from ardour of running , Acall. 1617 . ? nocho rabhasa fós ... bhaili bud gairdi rem ghal ná na mesc `where my time sped more quickly ,' 1585 . gs. láith gaile fer nhÉrend, IT i 100.5 . lathus gaile Góedel uile, FB 89 ( LU 9160 ). do chom- ramaib gaili ┐ gascid, TBC² 1862. 2046 . ar nert gaile by dint of valour , TTr² 55 . a n-n[e]urt gaile, 996 . cona ṡlúag lán gaile, Fél. Jan. 11 . re huair ṅgaile, Ériu v 223.54 . én gaile, see E 123.65 . pl. feats of valour (?): ar gressaib gal, Thes. ii 293.20 . for gói gnaith sraintear gala battles are ever gained , MR 120.19 . nirbu Gabran cen gala | i n-aimsir meicc Murchada, Rawl. 84b40 . indsaighfidh gala, Lism. L. 2806 . a bhferga ┐ a ngala (ngalu MS) oc dula do chath, Ériu ii 130.20 . da mac samla galaib gliad, TBC 4053 . ar galaib dagḟer, Ériu v 222.39 . miser fiana iarna ngalaib, O'Dav. 1037. Content. xxx 35 . ō galaib ōenḟer, ZCP xi 109 § 21 . ar galaib oenḟer (-ḟir) by unaided valour (often = in single combat ): ar galaib ōenfer roggōeta uli, TBC² 1522 . ar galaib oenḟir, TBC 1642 . in triar thuc Mac C ... ar galaibóenfer, BDD 94 . comrac for galaib oen-fir, MR 70.6 . gaibid ar gail challenges: rogab Gablach Fuiter ar gail, RC xv 323.9 ( Dinds. 23 ). Of animals heat, fury:fuil aidhe rogiallathar gail, Laws v 152.3 , with gl. in adh da ngialland a gail merachta, 154.11 . Cf. (among legal exemptions) slan do na damaib in gail doniat, iii 266.16 Comm. gala mathgamna ┐ brotha leóman, BDD 92 = BDD² 893 . Of natural pheno- mena, etc. : a gail co timm rothaisig (of a whirlpool) `he made feeble and faint its fury ,' Met. Dinds. iv 86.79 . ó chaitheasdair an ghaoth a goil `when the wind had exhausted its fury ,' ML 48.22 . mar bráinṡnec[h]ta ó ghoil gréni, Ériu iv 226 § 51 . a bhfoil beo ní buaine | ná ceo re goil ngréine, Dán Dé viii 2 . ní bhí ag sruth ... guth ón ghal, IGT Decl. ex. 1567 . mar chuiris an ghrian a gal `as the sun doth send its heat ,' Arch. Hib. i 99 . fo nim niabtha gal, AU 894 = FM i 544.17 . congaibet gola (of waves), SR 7899 . Cf. further: gal ambraighet the heat of their throats (from thirst), CCath. 2578 . ticc goil a ngrúaidh Núaladha a flush (lit. heat), IGT Decl. ex. 312 . Common in chevilles, esp. in gp.feochair ngoile, ITS v 40.10 . dígrais gail, PRIA 3 Ser. iii 534.1 . dorairngert Curnán cét gal, SG 235.29 . cétaib gal, Arch. Hib. ii 93 § 18 . fichtib gal, TBC 3206 .línib gal, 3693 , Acall. 1582 . miad n-gal, MR 146.3 ; 132.15 .
    Compds. ¤chét a valorous hundred: galchét clerech, LL 131a45 ( Trip. ii 536.25 ). ¤fine = fingal murder of a kinsman: bá himeccla lá hUa nD. gail-fhine do dhénamh dhóibh for aroile, FM v 1406.4
    In this case Farrell means either "man of valour" (fear = man) or as I see in some texts a corruption of what is written fíor (very) in modern Irish. -- thus perhaps "very valourous / super valourous)

    Ruarc is indeed based off a norse first name. This Ruarc was however a member of the Uí Briúin (specifically Uí Briúin Bréfine) However people should not forget that Irish people had no problems adopting foreign firstnames, just as we don't today. Old Norse provides a large amount of loan words into middle Irish specifically around areas of trade/marine/towns etc.

    A good example of a Norse influenced name is Manus (Maghnus) which is borrowed from Magnus. It doesn't imply that the McManus's are descended from Vikings. Likewise Lochlann doesn't imply been a viking (Lochlannaigh = Vikings), it became a popular enough firstname. I reckon that a similiar event happened with Dubhghall which became a firstname that was born by men who weren't necessary viking in origin. Their descendants then took the surname Ó Dubhghaill -- thus implying descent from a man called Dubhghall as oppose to meaning "Descendant of Danish Viking". Of course this name survives today in english in the form Dougal and the surname has at least three angliscations. these been Doyle, McDowell, McDougal

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    thanks
    some of these ligneages seam showing alliances between gaelic and viking ligneages
    on an other side, I knew and it is confirmed that a lot of genuine irish surnames were anglicized in more than a way as in every country you have colonized people and colonizators

    PS for Dowell, D(o)ugal(d), maybe I can add Doyle?
    You can certainly add Doyle Moesan. There are around thirteen names that stem from Dubh-Ghaill, I can`t remember them all but Doyle, O`Doyle, Dougall, McDougall, McDowell, Dowell. If you are wishing to read something in particular regarding Dubhghaill, there are some entries in Book of Four Masters from about 978 to 1012 (give or take a year either way, I can`t remember dates exactly).
    For sure it is no easy task trying to work through the Scottish and Irish surnames as there are indeed many changes and sub branches. As for the Norse/Vikings many of them became more Gaelic than the Gaelic and their names (most taken from personal names and brought to be surnames) were then transcribed into Gaelic then Anglicized.

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    So would Farrel be something similar to Friel?
    Regarding what MOESAN said about viking allegiances; has anyone heard something similar for Gallagher? As the name means foreign lover or foreign helper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inver2b1 View Post
    So would Farrel be something similar to Friel?
    Regarding what MOESAN said about viking allegiances; has anyone heard something similar for Gallagher? As the name means foreign lover or foreign helper.
    Woulfe regards Friel as a variant, obviously in this case though they have seperate ancestry, but both descend from seperate men who would have had similiar firstnames.

    Ó FIRGHIL—IO Ferrill, O Phirell, O'Freel, Freel, Friel, Freal, &c.; 'descendant of Fearghal' (super-valour); a variant of Ó Fearghail, which see; the name of a family of Cinel Conaill who derive their descent from Eoghan, brother of St. Columcille, and were hereditary erenaghs of Kilmacrenan, in Co. Donegal. The name is still common in that county, but pronounced Ó Frighil, which see. O'Freel had the privilege of inaugurating O'Donnell as chieftain of Tirconnell.
    Ó GALLCHOBHAIR—IO Galleghure, O'Gallagher, Gallagher, Gallaher, Gallogher, Gollagher, &c.; 'descendant of Gallchobhar' (foreign help); the name of a numerous and once powerful family in Tirconnell, who derive their descent from Maolchobha, King of Ireland in the 7th century. As marshalls of O'Donnell's forces, the O'Gallaghers took a prominent part in all the military movements of Cinel Conaill during the 14th and subsequent centuries. Many of them were distinguished as Bishops of Raphoe and Derry. The name was sometimes shortened to Ó Gallchú, which see.
    As for Gallagher, well at the minimimal it means "Descendant of a man whose first name was Gallchobhar" -- now as to why he has this name that's another matter. Perhaps he was given it due to fact that his family had good relations with say Vikings (they did intermarry), or perhaps it was a nickname/descriptive title he became know as, that his ancestors (in the form of his grandsons and later) decided to continue bearing.

    I do think people can be abit too literate when it comes to translating, Irish like all languages can often quite allegorical/poetic meanings to names. For example does anyone read Jonathan these days literarly as "Yahweh has given"? -- often Irish names were in many ways like those of the Plains Indians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post

    Gall = Foreigner
    Gal = Valour

    Here's an extract from DIL (Dictionary of Irish language -- covering old and middle Irish periods)




    -Paul
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    thanks and sorry: the L or LL writing has some value as you show here and I forgot it in my spelling

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    I agree for loaned names: firstable they were foreign names for foreign people but after wars end and cohabitation and before the fixation of patronyms, they can be loaned, loosing by the way their 100% reliability for tracing ethnic origin (look at the thousands of french surnames of frank or other germanic origin, taken by people who had NO germanic origin... even in Italy
    good evening to the boiling brains!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    A good example of a Norse influenced name is Manus (Maghnus) which is borrowed from Magnus.
    Here are two references from the Annals with Norse first names for members of the Uliad. I believe that Ragnal was originally Norse.

    Annals of Inisfallen, 1045 : Ragnall Ua hEochada, royal heir of Ulaid, was slain by the foreigners of Áth Cliath in Rechru, together with three hundred nobles around him.
    Annals of the Four Masters, 1194 : Conor, son of Manus, who was son of Donslevy O'Haughey, was treacherously slain by O'Hanlon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have scrutinised FamilyTreeDNA's Ireland Y-DNA Project and noticed that practically all the Irish surnames belonged to haplogroup R1b, while almost all members of other haplogroups had English, Scottish, or occasionally even Welsh surnames.

    The Germanic haplogroup R1b-U106 is also dominated by English and Lowland Scottish surnames, as is to be expected. ...
    I've got a file of about 7500 L21 people. I have them designated by geography for all that provide the information. I've got it down to the county level in a consistent - country, province (or region), county/shire (or department) level.

    I reserved a data column for surname type but have never been satisfied there is an objective way to classify many surnames by ethnicity. I'll give it a try if some one can give me the appriopriate rules.

    I can easily call all Mc or Mac folks Scots, all O' folks Irish, etc., etc. There are some clear Welsh names like Price/Rice but I'm not sure that some of the very common names like Jones and Roberts couldn't be English as well as Welsh.

    Help? How can I tackle this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I can easily call all Mc or Mac folks Scots, all O' folks Irish, etc.,
    Except of course that Mac surnames have just as much chance as been Irish as scottish, after all it literally means "son" in Irish & Scottish Gaidhlig

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I can easily call all Mc or Mac folks Scots, all O' folks Irish, etc., etc. There are some clear Welsh names like Price/Rice but I'm not sure that some of the very common names like Jones and Roberts couldn't be English as well as Welsh.

    Help? How can I tackle this?
    I usually look at surname frequency distributions. Maciamo posted some links here. I actually use the Ancestry.com one the most for the British Isles.

    Some rules of thumb for "John" patronymics (not always reliable):
    Jane: Cornish
    Jayne: Welsh
    Jaynes: English
    Jenkin: Cornish
    Jenkins: Welsh
    Johns: Cornish
    Johnson: English
    Johnston: Scottish
    Johnstone: Scottish
    Jones: Welsh
    McKean: Scottish
    McKeown: Irish

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    Quote Originally Posted by hope View Post
    You can certainly add Doyle Moesan. There are around thirteen names that stem from Dubh-Ghaill, I can`t remember them all but Doyle, O`Doyle, Dougall, McDougall, McDowell, Dowell. If you are wishing to read something in particular regarding Dubhghaill, there are some entries in Book of Four Masters from about 978 to 1012 (give or take a year either way, I can`t remember dates exactly).
    For sure it is no easy task trying to work through the Scottish and Irish surnames as there are indeed many changes and sub branches. As for the Norse/Vikings many of them became more Gaelic than the Gaelic and their names (most taken from personal names and brought to be surnames) were then transcribed into Gaelic then Anglicized.
    The Doyles seem to be mostly within the subclades P312/S116. Wouldn't that indicate Celtic ancestry rather than Scandinavian?

    The Doyle DNA Project: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/doyle/results

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    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    The Doyles seem to be mostly within the subclades P312/S116. Wouldn't that indicate Celtic ancestry rather than Scandinavian?

    The Doyle DNA Project: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/doyle/results
    To be honest elghund, I`m not sure about that.
    You could look at Maciamos R1b tree in the haplogroup list.
    All I know is on the link there seems to be entries for R1b1a2a1a1b4 (f) which I thought (and I may be wrong) was common to Norway, Irish Sea and Hebrides
    Perhaps some-one with more knowledge on the subject will enlighten us..
    Also it would not be such a great surprise I feel to find markers outside what one could expect as if you recall the vikings were known for slave taking. I recently read something ( sorry at the moment cannot remember where) regarding their ships coming into Dublin harbour loaded with slaves and among them many Picts.
    This is why I find interesting the surname projects that are going at the moment as they are shedding better light on the matter.
    Last edited by hope; 22-10-12 at 10:51.

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    I am new to DNA but found this a very interesting thread, my family are Butlers from the Kilkenny\Laois area of Ireland and I have justfound out that I am I2b1C so question I have is, as most of the Butlers whoclaim Irish descent seem to belong to R1b1a2 and the in comming Butlers were Normans from the Fitzwalter family, which group is most likely to have arrived with the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1170 , I2b1 or R1b1a2? .

    Does P78 (I2b1C) have any significance to the above ?
    Last edited by Butler; 21-10-12 at 23:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler View Post

    I am new to DNA but found this a very interesting thread, my family are Butlers from the Kilkenny\Laois area of Ireland and I have justfound out that I am I2b1C so question I have is, as most of the Butlers whoclaim Irish descent seem to belong to R1b1a2 and the in comming Butlers were Normans from the Fitzwalter family, which group is most likely to have arrived with the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1170 , I2b1 or R1b1a2? .

    Does P78 (I2b1C) have any significance to the above ?
    It's difficult to separate Normans from the pre-Celtic/Celtic/Anglo-Saxon mix that was in the British Isles by the time the Normans arrived. There are some subclades that are fairly clearly part of one migration or another, but the commonly mentioned ones don't tend to be. We'd need something much more specific than "R1b1a2," to begin with.

    I will say that your subclade, P78, is notoriously eastern in its distribution among I2-M223. If your family was from just about anywhere but the British Isles, I would guess a Gothic or Vandal connection. As is, I don't think I can rule out an Anglo-Saxon or Norman connection. You look to be in a cluster with names like Mathews, Mackabee, Roberts, and Hall... not a lot of Norman names there, and you're also not too far from continental names like Hermans, Budarick, and Kuhn. So based on current evidence, an Anglo-Saxon origin of your family looks perhaps more likely, unless you have some interesting Norman-looking matches I'm not seeing.

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    Thank you for the reply I have 4 routes to consider

    My I2B1C ancestor went straight into Ireland
    My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland as part of the early Vikingsraids, 795 onwards
    My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland with the Normans from 1169onwards
    My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland at another time notassociated with the Vikings or Normans

    Having done some research I2B1C does not seem to be verycommon is the south of Ireland perhaps this is simply down to the lack ofsubclade testing; after all I am new to this myself.

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    I did some further research on the Irish FTDNA project the only other I2B1C match was for the surname of MULLINAX which was a locational name 'of de Moloneaux' from the noble family who trace their descent from William the Conqueror, from Molineaux-sur-Seine, near Rouen. They trace their descent fromWilliam de Molines, a Norman named in the Battle Abbey Roll (a list of men who fought with William the Conqueror at Hastings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler View Post
    I did some further research on the Irish FTDNA project the only other I2B1C match was for the surname of MULLINAX which was a locational name 'of de Moloneaux' from the noble family who trace their descent from William the Conqueror, from Molineaux-sur-Seine, near Rouen. They trace their descent fromWilliam de Molines, a Norman named in the Battle Abbey Roll (a list of men who fought with William the Conqueror at Hastings.
    I see a Mullinax sample at the M223 Project, but the GD to the Butler sample is 13 on 25 markers... too distant to make any conclusions about the Butler sample. The others I mentioned also have GDs around 13, and not on the slow mutating DYS393 marker, and so are probably more relevant.

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    Sparkey

    Thank you for the reply

    What I was trying to establish, due the lack of confirmed I2B1Cin Ireland, was that some Irish I2BIC’s were of Norman descent, I agee that there are a number of members of the M233 who are probably more relevant but it isthe Norman\Irish link that really interests me.

    The issue I have is that there are very few IrishI2B1C’s so it’s difficult to draw a conclusion, I am sure that the given sometime other I2B1’s will prove to be I2B1C

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