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Thread: Were the Irish pure R1b before the Viking and British invasions ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    It's difficult to separate Normans from the pre-Celtic/Celtic/Anglo-Saxon mix that was in the British Isles by the time the Normans arrived. There are some subclades that are fairly clearly part of one migration or another, but the commonly mentioned ones don't tend to be. We'd need something much more specific than "R1b1a2," to begin with.
    This is absolutely true. R1b-U106 in the Ukraine and R1b-L21 in England may not have much to do with each other, likewise R1b-L21>Z253 in Switzerland is different than R1b-L21>DF13* in France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler View Post
    Thank you for the reply I have 4 routes to consider

    My I2B1C ancestor went straight into Ireland
    My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland as part of the early Vikingsraids, 795 onwards
    My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland with the Normans from 1169onwards
    My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland at another time notassociated with the Vikings or Normans

    Having done some research I2B1C does not seem to be verycommon is the south of Ireland perhaps this is simply down to the lack ofsubclade testing; after all I am new to this myself.
    Butler, this is very interesting. We are not of the same paternal lineage as I'm R1b-L21>L513>L705.2 but my family inter-married with Butler's in Ireland so we have a possible connection. In fact, my immigrant ancestor from south Co. Kilkenny has the given name of Edmund and he told his family it was passed down from the Butler's. There was an Edmund Butler in the ancestry somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by from a deed
    On Thursday next after the feast of St. John the Baptist, in the year 1374, Geoffrey, son of Thomas, son of Nicholas, son of Howel Walsh, appointed ... to deliver to James le Botiller, Earl of Ormond, the lands and buildings of his manor and town of Melagh and Cannderstown in Iverk.
    I've got old pedigrees from books that show several intermarriages. Here is one.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lament for John MacWalter Walsh by JC Walsh
    Richard's son was Edmund and ... in the old Abbey of Jerpoint, ... there is a coffin shaped slab in one of the sepulchral niches in the chancel, to which it was removed from its original position beneath the tower. It bears a raised eight pointed cross, a shield bearing the arms of the Passion, and another with the arms of Walsh of Castle Hale. There is rich foliage ornamentation. Some of the letters of the inscription are obliterated. It reads, in old English character:
    Here lies Edmund Walsh and Johanna Butler his wife. On whose souls God have mercy. A.D. 1476"
    These names do intermingle.


    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    a try concerning some surnames: waiting the help of somebody with accurate and vaster knowledge
    Irish and British surnames :
    from some books :
    « Normans » common surnames in Ireland :
    ...
    BUTLER previously FITZWALTER name changed in 1177 ('chief butler' function, french « bouteiller »)
    ...
    BARRETT from France, with Normans
    ...
    WALL norman : De Valle, 'du val'

    WALSH 'welsh', 'britton' : name of a lot of Welshmen that accompagnied the Normans
    ...
    scandinave families gaelicized (as in Scotland) :
    ... MACDOUGALL, McDOWELL
    I think we should be cautious in saying Cambro-Norman invaders into Ireland were of Norman descent, at least on the Y lineage side. Many were probably Welsh. There was a lot of intermarriages between Norman Marcher Lord families and Welsh royalty and landholders in Wales prior to the invasion of Ireland. Of course, some of the Norman allies were actually Flemish or Breton so "what's an Anglo-Norman?" is probably not answered simply.

    However, I think there is something to all of these names as found in Ireland. The Y DNA does back some of this up. I know my Walsh matches with several families actually located now in Wales - mainly Morgan's. I also match with the Barrett's of Co. Mayo which supports an old poem about the "Welshmen of Tirawley" where the Barret and Walsh were brothers who fought with the Cambro-Normans. We also have a MacDougall who matches. It seems we are Welsh, but we do have Frenchman named Bergeron and a Swede from Ostergotland who also match our 1000 year old Y lineage so who knows?

    My clan progenitor is reportedly Philip Walsh who was a knight fighting for FitzStephen under de Clare (Strongbow.) I've got old pedigrees, but thats the problem. I have multiple to choose from that vary to... FitzStephen as a grandfather, or Raymond le Gros, or to dear relative de Clare, or to the de Barri's (of Gerald of Wales) but also to one of the Twelve Lords (knights) of Glamorgan (under Robert Fitzhamon) and to, you guessed it, King Arthur.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 25-10-12 at 09:05.

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    Cambro-Normans is a very good term, as Strongbow himself was a Norman it would make sense that hishigher ranking supporters would also be Normans, the Strongbow invasion of Ireland takes place only about 100 years after the conquest the problem we have is that we do not have a definative DNA label for what consitutes a Norman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Butler, this is very interesting. We are not of the same paternal lineage as I'm R1b-L21>L513>L705.2 but my family inter-married with Butler's in Ireland so we have a possible connection. In fact, my immigrant ancestor from south Co. Kilkenny has the given name of Edmund and he told his family it was passed down from the Butler's. There was an Edmund Butler in the ancestry somewhere.



    I've got old pedigrees from books that show several intermarriages. Here is one.


    These names do intermingle.




    I think we should be cautious in saying Cambro-Norman invaders into Ireland were of Norman descent, at least on the Y lineage side. Many were probably Welsh. There was a lot of intermarriages between Norman Marcher Lord families and Welsh royalty and landholders in Wales prior to the invasion of Ireland. Of course, some of the Norman allies were actually Flemish or Breton so "what's an Anglo-Norman?" is probably not answered simply.

    However, I think there is something to all of these names as found in Ireland. The Y DNA does back some of this up. I know my Walsh matches with several families actually located now in Wales - mainly Morgan's. I also match with the Barrett's of Co. Mayo which supports an old poem about the "Welshmen of Tirawley" where the Barret and Walsh were brothers who fought with the Cambro-Normans. We also have a MacDougall who matches. It seems we are Welsh, but we do have Frenchman named Bergeron and a Swede from Ostergotland who also match our 1000 year old Y lineage so who knows?

    My clan progenitor is reportedly Philip Walsh who was a knight fighting for FitzStephen under de Clare (Strongbow.) I've got old pedigrees, but thats the problem. I have multiple to choose from that vary to... FitzStephen as a grandfather, or Raymond le Gros, or to dear relative de Clare, or to the de Barri's (of Gerald of Wales) but also to one of the Twelve Lords (knights) of Glamorgan (under Robert Fitzhamon) and to, you guessed it, King Arthur.
    You refer to old pedigrees that link your name Walsh [which, according to Richard Roche's [1995] 'The Norman Invasion of Ireland' hails from Pembrokeshire in Wales] to several Cambro-Norman sources including your 'dear relative, de Clare'. That Walsh links to the Barrys may well be true as there is evidence from Roche that Barry too is of Pembrokeshire origin, as were Barretts.

    The problem is that no Irish records exist to my knowledge that will link your Irish ancestors of the 19th century directly back, generation by generation, to the Walshes of the Cambro-Norman invasion. Even if there was, you would have to trust in the fidelities of an awful lot of ancestors. Your Walsh matches to Barrys and Barretts might have nothing to do with Cambro-Norman origins but rather to shared native Irish origins [your Ydna lineage does not rule this out]. Perhaps it is possible that you descend from Irish peasants who adopted the name Walsh through servitude, as is possible with the matching Barry and Barrett families and there may be no link whatsoever with 'dear relative, de Clare'? Your surname Walsh is apparently the 4th most common in Ireland, which also considerably reduces your chances of being of Cambro-Norman lineage.
    Last edited by Yorkie; 28-10-12 at 20:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    You refer to old pedigrees that link your name Walsh [which, according to Richard Roche's [1995] 'The Norman Invasion of Ireland' hails from Pembrokeshire in Wales] to several Cambro-Norman sources including your 'dear relative, de Clare'. That Walsh links to the Barrys may well be true as there is evidence from Roche that Barry too is of Pembrokeshire origin, as were Barretts.

    The problem is that no Irish records exist to my knowledge that will link your Irish ancestors of the 19th century directly back, generation by generation, to the Walshes of the Cambro-Norman invasion. Even if there was, you would have to trust in the fidelities of an awful lot of ancestors. Your Walsh matches to Barrys and Barretts might have nothing to do with Cambro-Norman origins but rather to shared native Irish origins [your Ydna lineage does not rule this out]. Perhaps it is possible that you descend from Irish peasants who adopted the name Walsh through servitude, as is possible with the matching Barry and Barrett families and there may be no link whatsoever with 'dear relative, de Clare'? Your surname Walsh is apparently the 4th most common in Ireland, which also considerably reduces your chances of being of Cambro-Norman lineage.
    Yes, of course could be right that since my MDKA is from Ireland he could have an Old Irish origin. I do have pedigrees, starting with Gerald Cambrensis writings, but they conflict with each other and must be seen as unreliable. As you are aware, Yorkie, I think almost any pedigree reaching back a 1000 years is subject to the high opportunity for NPEs.

    However, I think the odds of an Old Irish origin for my Y lineage prior to the Cambro-Norman Invasion are diminished with by the nature by Y DNA triangulations. This is the benefit of deep ancestral testing.

    My only confirmed Irish matches are from two surname groups, the Barrett's and other people with Walsh variants (Welsh/Welch.) As I mentioned, this aligns with the family story that the Barrett and Walsh were brothers in the Cambro-Norman forces and descended from the Lords of Glamorganshire. Of course the name Walsh/Welsh/Welch is also indicative of Wales origin.

    The triangulation evidence is that the majority of my matches are from Wales, including citizens of South Wales. Most intriguing thing to me is the Morgan family that I'm related that reside in Monmouthsire, which is adjacent to Glamorgan. This whole little group of Barrett's, Walsh's, Morgans is estimated by Nordtvedt's TMRCA tool to be about a 1000 years old so the geographic break up of the group did not happen much prior to that if at all.

    I'm not trying to say this indicates a Norman Y lineage. That's hard to pin down anyway. My guess is we have a Welsh paternal lineage. I just think the alignment of the DNA evidence, family history and surnames seems to be in alignment for a migration with the Cambro-Norman Invasion. That does not prove a high or noble origin or prove anything for that matter. This is just my guess as to the odds based on the specifics of my situation.

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    The Barrets are definetly "post-invasion" along with the Walshes. Just to emphaise Mike's point on the surname in Irish the name Walsh is Breathnach which literally means "Welsh man" -- obviously emphasising the original meaning of word British/Breton. The name for the welsh language in Irish been: Breatnais

    Anyways here's some extracts regarding the Barrets from Woulfe's 1923 book. Unsurprising there are two origins for the name:

    BÁRÓID—VIII—Barrett; 'son of Baraud' (a Norman form of the Teutonic Berwald). Families of this name settled in Ireland at the time of the Anglo-Norman invasion. The Barretts were an influential family in Cork, and the name is still well known throughout Munster. Compare with Bairéid.
    BAIRÉID—VIIIBared, Baret, Barrett; 'son of Baret.' Bared, Baret, Boret, Borret, and Borred occur in Domesday Book as names of persons holding land in the time of Edward the Confessor. The name is, therefore, most probably Anglo-Saxon and distinct from Báróid, which see. The Barretts settled in the 13th century in Tirawley, where they became numerous and powerful. In later times they formed a clan after the Irish fashion, the head of which was known as Mac Bhaitín Bairéid; and there were sub-clans known as Clann Tóimín and Clann Aindriú.
    As can be seen in the above texts the Barrets in Ireland like the Walshes in general became more "Irish then the Irish themselves" -- adopting Irish law and inheritance systems (The "Corporate Clan" structure).

    Of course the first couple generations of Cambro-Normans heavily married with local Irish "grandees", by the mid 13th century the majority would have at least had either an Irish mother or an Irish wife. This was the same obviously in Wales. An interesting case is that of the Fitzgearld's.

    Gearld de Windsor married Nest ferch Rhys -> Maurice FitzGerald (whose wife was half Irish and granddaughter of Muircheartach Ua Briain highking of Ireland) -> Gerald FitzMaurice and Thomas FitzMaurice FitzGerald

    Gearld FitzMaurice been the ancestor of the Duke of Leinster Geraldines where's as Thomas was the ancestor of the Earl of Desmond line of the Geraldines.

    Giraldus Cambrensis was also a grandchild of Gearld de Windsor and Nest, though in his case he's a member of the Barry (de Barry) family:

    de BARRA—XIde Barry, Barry; Norman 'de Barri,' i.e., of Barri, probably in Normandy; one of the oldest and most illustrious of the Anglo-Norman families in Ireland. The name occurs in the earliest Anglo-Irish records, and has always been specially associated with the County of Cork. In the year 1179,Robert FitzStephen granted to his nephew, Philip de Barry, the three cantreds of Ui Liatháin, Muscraighe-trí-máighe, and Cinel Aodha, now represented respectively by the baronies of Barrymore, Orrery, and Kinelea; and this grant was confirmed by King John in 1207 to William de Barry, son and heir of Philip. In the course of time the Barrys became one of the most numerous and powerful families in Munster. They divided into several branches, the heads of which were known respectively as An Barrach Mór (the Great Barry), Barrach Ruadh (Red Barry), Barrach Óg (Young Barry), Barrach Maol (Bald Barry), Barrach Láidir (Strong Barry); and one branch adopted the Irish patronymic surname ofMac Ádaim, which see. The Barrys suffered considerably in the wars of the 17th century, but are still numerous and respectable throughout Munster. There was also a family of the name in Co. Wexford. The Barrys of Co. Limerick, in many instances, belong to the old Irish family of Ó Beargha (which see), and not to the Anglo-Norman Barrys.
    Most of the foot-soldiers/archers who would have accompanied the initial invasion would have been welsh.

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    It wouldn't surprise that Walsh is like Smith in English. You have multiple founders, the common point in this case not been occupation (Smithery) but in Welsh origin. In general a large part of both the common soldiery as well as the settlers brought in during the late 12th/early-mid 13th centuries were Welsh in origin.

    I should point out that even though Walsh is in the top 5 surnames in Ireland that in 1911 census that numbers with surname Walsh/Walshe/Breathnach numbered less then 0.8% of total island population.
    Last edited by Dubhthach; 30-10-12 at 15:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    It wouldn't surprise that Walsh is like Smith in English. You have multiple founders, the common point in this case not been occupation (Smithery) but in Welsh origin. In general a large part of both the common soldiery as well as the settlers brought in during the late 12th/early-mid 13th centuries were Welsh in origin.
    Absolutely I agree, I'm an administrator on the Walsh/Welsh and Welsh/Welch surname projects. BTW, I wish I could consolidate them. It is very apparent that there many Y lineages of Walsh/Welsh/Welch surnamed people. It's crazy.

    Do you have more information on what you are calling the "settler" migrations post the 1169-70 invasion? I'd love to read more about that. Perhaps there are different parts of Wales in these migrations. I think West Midlands might be considered along side Wales too. What about Cornwall during the 12th-13th centuries? Was it linked closely with Wales? In other words, would the Cambro-Normans have drawn upon Cornwall for support too or did Cornwall have different circumstances/leadership at the time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    I should point out that even though Walsh is in the top 5 surnames in Ireland that in 1911 census that numbers with surname Walsh/Walshe/Breathnach numbered less then 0.8% of total island population.
    That's interesting. I didn't know that it was just a small percentage of the population. I'd always assumed it was more populous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Absolutely I agree, I'm an administrator on the Walsh/Welsh and Welsh/Welch surname projects. BTW, I wish I could consolidate them. It is very apparent that there many Y lineages of Walsh/Welsh/Welch surnamed people. It's crazy.

    Do you have more information on what you are calling the "settler" migrations post the 1169-70 invasion? I'd love to read more about that. Perhaps there are different parts of Wales in these migrations. I think West Midlands might be considered along side Wales too. What about Cornwall during the 12th-13th centuries? Was it linked closely with Wales? In other words, would the Cambro-Normans have drawn upon Cornwall for support too or did Cornwall have different circumstances/leadership at the time?



    That's interesting. I didn't know that it was just a small percentage of the population. I'd always assumed it was more populous.
    Well I have to admit I haven't read much about 13th century Irish history, generally my interests are either in the period before then or the period from 1400-1700. It's my general recollection though I would need to do some digging through some of books I have.

    With regards to "West Midlands" I would imagine so, after all the city of Dublin was given to the merchants of Bristol. I see for example the following on wiki page about History of Dublin:

    The siege mentality of medieval Dubliners is best illustrated by their annual pilgrimage to the area called Fiodh Chuilinn, or Holly Wood (rendered in English as Cullenswood) in Ranelagh, where, in 1209, five hundred recent settlers from Bristol had been massacred by the O'Toole clan during an outing outside the city limits. Every year on "Black Monday", the Dublin citizens would march out of the city to the spot where the atrocity had happened and raise a black banner in the direction of the mountains to challenge the Irish to battle in a gesture of symbolic defiance. This was still so dangerous that, until the 17th century, the participants had to be guarded by the city militia and a stockade against "the mountain enemy".
    I believe there are at least 3,500-4,000 potential irish surnames or variations of. As a result with so many the largest ones don't breach 1% each.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    ... Gearld de Windsor married Nest ferch Rhys -> Maurice FitzGerald (whose wife was half Irish and granddaughter of Muircheartach Ua Briain highking of Ireland) -> Gerald FitzMaurice and Thomas FitzMaurice FitzGerald
    ....
    Most of the foot-soldiers/archers who would have accompanied the initial invasion would have been welsh.
    Don't forget, the Cambro-Normans really were Cambro-Normans (Welsh-Normans.) There was a great deal of intermarriage. For instance, a number of the Norman type surnamed folks descended from Nest ferch Rhys, a Welsh princess who also has been named "Helen of Wales", "Queen Bee of the Cambro-Norman Swarm" and "Mother of the Walshes."

    Regardless of their Y lineages, FitzStephen, FitzGerald, de Carew, FitzWalter, FitzMaurice, de Barri and even FitzHenry had Welsh blood in them.
    http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.c.../strongbw.html

    As far as I can tell, de Clare (Strongbow) himself, only left one male offspring, Gilbert (who would've been half Old Irish) but he died in childhood.

    Would the surname FitzMaurice have evolved into Anglicized variants? Would FitzMorris be a possibility, ending up as Morris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia_Morris
    Britain

    In England and Scotland, the name can be derived from the Old French personal name Maurice which was introduced to Britain by the Normans. It can also be derived from the Latin Mauritius, a derivative of Maurus. This name was used by several early Christian saints. The first Morrises in the British Isles were recorded as living in the bordering counties of Monmouthshire, Wales and Herefordshire, England by the Norman Conquest of 1066 AD.[3] In Wales, Morris is an Anglicisation of the Welsh personal name Meurig (ultimately derived from Latin Mauritius).[1] Additionally the name Morris is of Anglo-Norman origin deriving from the 'de Marisco' line.


    Ireland

    In Ireland, the name is an anglicisation of the Gaelic Ó Muiris and can derive from a number of sources. Firstly from Norman settlers who assimilated into the Gaelic language and culture, for example the Norman Morrises who settled in Galway in 1485 and became one of the Tribes of Galway. Secondly the name may be a variant of Morrissey (Ó Muireasa), who were a branch of the Uí Fiachrach clan, or also from Muiris who was a member of the MacDermot royal family.
    The reason I ask is there are some Morrises in my group. I never really thought about it. There are some R1b-L21>DF21, R1b-L21>DF41, R1b-L21>L226, R1b-L21* Morris/Morrison people, but I also have a group associated with me. The ones associated with me (R1b-L705.2) list an origin in Monmouthshire of South Wales, same county as the L705.2 Morgan's. I'm glad this came up in the conversation. I need to cover this in my group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Yes, of course could be right that since my MDKA is from Ireland he could have an Old Irish origin. I do have pedigrees, starting with Gerald Cambrensis writings, but they conflict with each other and must be seen as unreliable. As you are aware, Yorkie, I think almost any pedigree reaching back a 1000 years is subject to the high opportunity for NPEs.

    However, I think the odds of an Old Irish origin for my Y lineage prior to the Cambro-Norman Invasion are diminished with by the nature by Y DNA triangulations. This is the benefit of deep ancestral testing.

    My only confirmed Irish matches are from two surname groups, the Barrett's and other people with Walsh variants (Welsh/Welch.) As I mentioned, this aligns with the family story that the Barrett and Walsh were brothers in the Cambro-Norman forces and descended from the Lords of Glamorganshire. Of course the name Walsh/Welsh/Welch is also indicative of Wales origin.

    The triangulation evidence is that the majority of my matches are from Wales, including citizens of South Wales. Most intriguing thing to me is the Morgan family that I'm related that reside in Monmouthsire, which is adjacent to Glamorgan. This whole little group of Barrett's, Walsh's, Morgans is estimated by Nordtvedt's TMRCA tool to be about a 1000 years old so the geographic break up of the group did not happen much prior to that if at all.

    I'm not trying to say this indicates a Norman Y lineage. That's hard to pin down anyway. My guess is we have a Welsh paternal lineage. I just think the alignment of the DNA evidence, family history and surnames seems to be in alignment for a migration with the Cambro-Norman Invasion. That does not prove a high or noble origin or prove anything for that matter. This is just my guess as to the odds based on the specifics of my situation.
    Yes, of course, any pedigree has the possibility of a ratio of NPEs, and they all involve a leap of faith in the sense of ancestral fidelities. However, in your case, all you appear to possess is the famous pedigree compiled by Cambrensis. That in itself proves nothing either way because there is no connection to your Walsh family going back clearly, generation by generation. I might as well call Harald Hardrada a 'dear relative' because I have some recent Norwegian ancestry.

    What you need is a generation by generation pedigree leading from the present back to Strongbow's times and they are as rare as hens' teeth in Ireland. Fortunately, in England there exist some pedigrees [one of my maternal lines] that can be tied up with family tree detective work as 'the other half of the jigsaw'. I am able to trace one line of mine back to Yorkshire in the late 1500s, and then with the aid of a pedigree by George Ormerod, to continue the line through, generation by generation, to some Norman-descended landed families in the east Cheshire [De Legh, Del Sherd, De Clayton etc] of the 1200s. Of course, NPEs may lurk there, but at least one can follow the line back, generation by generation. Using a pedigree by Gerald Cambrensis that doesn't lead anywhere seems a waste of time .

    Is there any evidence that your Irish Walshes ever owned land? That seems a good place to start for a clue.

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    Well Fitz names are never "anglisced" by default they originate in Hiberno-Norman-French (as some of the academics call the local written versions of Norman-French in Ireland). The most famous line of Fitzmaurice is actually a branch of the Geraldines (Fitzgearlds) from somewhat later. (late 13th centuries). Their mainline continues to this day as the current Marquess of Lansdowne, whose heir holds the title "Earl of Kerry".

    Their namesake been: Maurice FitzThomas -- the brother of John FitzGerald, 1st Baron Desmond (Desmond line -- now extinct). John was killed at the battle of Battle of Callann in 1261. (Knight of Kerry direct descendant of John through his illegimate son: Sir Maurice Buidhe fitz John)


    1261.5
    Cocad mor & uilcc imda do denam do Fingen mac Domnaill Mec Carthaig & da braithrib ar Gallaib in hoc anno.


    1261.6
    Sluagad mor la Clainn Gerailt i nDesmumain d'indsaigid Meg Carthaig, & do innsaig Mag Carthaig iat-som & tucc maidm forro & do marbad mac Tomas .i. Eoan proprium nomen & a mac & u. ritere x. maille friu, [I] & ocht mbaruin maithe faeirri & gilli oca imda & sersenaigh diairmithi do marbad and o sin. In Barrach Mor do marbad lais beos. Fingin Mag Carthaig do marbad do Gallaib iar sin & rigi Desmuman do gabail da derbrathair donn athcleirech Mac Carthaig dia eis.
    1261.5

    Very destructive war was waged against the Galls this year by Fingen son of Domnall Mac Carthaig and his kinsmen.


    1261.6


    A great hosting was made by the Fitz Geralds into Desmond, to attack Mac Carthaig; but he attacked them and routed them and fitz Thomas, John by name, and his son were killed there, as well as fifteen knights, besides eight noble barons and many young squires and countless soldiery. He killed Barrach Mor (Barry More) also. Afterwards Fingen Mac Carthaig was killed by the Galls and the kingship of Desmond was assumed by his brother, the Ex-cleric Mac Carthaig.

    The other main branch of the Geraldines are the Leinster branch represented to this day by the Duke of Leinster the premier peer in Ireland. The spilt between this line and that of the Marquess of Lansdowne dates to the late 12th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Yes, of course, any pedigree has the possibility of a ratio of NPEs, and they all involve a leap of faith in the sense of ancestral fidelities. However, in your case, all you appear to possess is the famous pedigree compiled by Cambrensis. That in itself proves nothing either way because there is no connection to your Walsh family going back clearly, generation by generation. ....
    Is there any evidence that your Irish Walshes ever owned land? That seems a good place to start for a clue.
    Yes, most of what I have, actually are land transaction records. However, there was huge event that changed the course of land ownership. Circa 1650, Oliver Cromwell came in and took over. I don't quite understand it but the Butler's don't seem to been have unified in this timeframe. Unfortunately, the Walsh of the Mountain clan resisted Cromwell forcefully. That is was bad idea. Very bad.

    After that it took a quite a while before the Walshes recovered to any extent, land holding-wise, and generally for that matter.

    I do have much more in the way of pedigree documentation than Gerald de Barri's historical perspective, but that is not the issue. I have multiple pedigrees and as far as I'm concerned they are all unreliable. This is what I was trying to say before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I do have pedigrees, starting with Gerald Cambrensis writings, but they conflict with each other and must be seen as unreliable. As you are aware, Yorkie, I think almost any pedigree reaching back a 1000 years is subject to the high opportunity for NPEs.
    As you also know from other postings, I think that any pedigree going back to 1000 AD is highly suspect and subject to NPEs, no matter how rock solid the documentation. Here is why. If we use the ISOGG recommended NPE rate of 4% per generation when the father of record is confident he is the biological father you have a 4% risk of NPE per generation that accumulates over time. Over 33 generations, the odds are only about 25% that the Y chromosome remained constant... not good for paper only pedigrees. If the records have any risk in them, it only gets worse.

    This is why I advocate the DNA triangulation method that is being used in the Wettin Man/English King scenario or the Royal Stewart scenario. I don't know if either of those is correct, but I think they are on the right track, methodology-wise. Still triangulation does not prove a pedigree. It just says we are in the right family.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I'm not trying to say this indicates a Norman Y lineage. That's hard to pin down anyway. My guess is we have a Welsh paternal lineage. I just think the alignment of the DNA evidence, family history and surnames seems to be in alignment for a migration with the Cambro-Norman Invasion. That does not prove a high or noble origin or prove anything for that matter. This is just my guess as to the odds based on the specifics of my situation.
    Relax, I'm not submitting for any kind nobility or knighthood. I don't care. I'm just trying to figure out the odds where we fit in. I think the DNA is the most reliable thing we have going, in conjunction with various family lineages/surnames and triangulation.

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    Circa 1650, Oliver Cromwell came in and took over. I don't quite understand it but the Butler's don't seem to been have unified in this timeframe. Unfortunately, the Walsh of the Mountain clan resisted Cromwell forcefully. That is was bad idea. Very bad.

    In 1650s the 1st Duke of Ormond, James Butler, was in exile in France wiith Charles II, I would imagine it wasn't a good time to be a Butler, best to keep your head down lest Cromwell chop it off.

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    Out of 51 members of haplogroup G in the project, only four surnames (Lannin, Murphy, McCauley, McQuate) could be considered Irish - although McQuate and McCauley can also be Scottish. The vast majority of I2b members have Germanic names.

    Hi I am trying to glean whatever information I can re my Ancestors Name = "Lannin" do you have any other information re dating or origins of my Ancestors name,Thanks.

    Cheers
    Ron

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    Quote Originally Posted by zeta View Post
    Out of 51 members of haplogroup G in the project, only four surnames (Lannin, Murphy, McCauley, McQuate) could be considered Irish - although McQuate and McCauley can also be Scottish. The vast majority of I2b members have Germanic names.

    Hi I am trying to glean whatever information I can re my Ancestors Name = "Lannin" do you have any other information re dating or origins of my Ancestors name,Thanks.

    Cheers
    Ron
    From Woulfe's 1923 book
    ---
    Ó LONÁIN—IO Lonane, O Lonan, O Lonnan, O Lannan, O Lennane, Lenane, Lanon, Lannan, Lannon, Lannen, Lannin, Lennon, (Leonard); 'descendant of Lonán' (diminutive of lon, a blackbird); the name (1) of a Cork family who were originally settled in the neighbourhood of Rosscarbery, where they were followers of the O'Learys; and (2) of a Wicklow family who were anciently erenaghs of Kilranelagh; also, not improbably, (3) of an Ossory family. In Co. Cork, it appears to have been generally pronounced Ó Lionáin, and is very often anglicised Leonard.
    --

    So three separate families whose surname could all be potentially anglisced as Lannin.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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    It seems that I2a2 in the British Isles is not Germanic after all:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post532148

    It is rather Neolithic British, assimilated by Scots later on. Germanic surnames are probably of Lowland Scottish origin. Perhaps most of I2a2 came to Ireland with Lowland Scots. But in Scotland itself, it is a Neolithic British lineage, rather than Germanic.

    I guess that it has to be associated with Caledonians rather than with Gaels.

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