Were the Irish pure R1b before the Viking and British invasions ?

Yes, of course could be right that since my MDKA is from Ireland he could have an Old Irish origin. I do have pedigrees, starting with Gerald Cambrensis writings, but they conflict with each other and must be seen as unreliable. As you are aware, Yorkie, I think almost any pedigree reaching back a 1000 years is subject to the high opportunity for NPEs.

However, I think the odds of an Old Irish origin for my Y lineage prior to the Cambro-Norman Invasion are diminished with by the nature by Y DNA triangulations. This is the benefit of deep ancestral testing.

My only confirmed Irish matches are from two surname groups, the Barrett's and other people with Walsh variants (Welsh/Welch.) As I mentioned, this aligns with the family story that the Barrett and Walsh were brothers in the Cambro-Norman forces and descended from the Lords of Glamorganshire. Of course the name Walsh/Welsh/Welch is also indicative of Wales origin.

The triangulation evidence is that the majority of my matches are from Wales, including citizens of South Wales. Most intriguing thing to me is the Morgan family that I'm related that reside in Monmouthsire, which is adjacent to Glamorgan. This whole little group of Barrett's, Walsh's, Morgans is estimated by Nordtvedt's TMRCA tool to be about a 1000 years old so the geographic break up of the group did not happen much prior to that if at all.

I'm not trying to say this indicates a Norman Y lineage. That's hard to pin down anyway. My guess is we have a Welsh paternal lineage. I just think the alignment of the DNA evidence, family history and surnames seems to be in alignment for a migration with the Cambro-Norman Invasion. That does not prove a high or noble origin or prove anything for that matter. This is just my guess as to the odds based on the specifics of my situation.

Yes, of course, any pedigree has the possibility of a ratio of NPEs, and they all involve a leap of faith in the sense of ancestral fidelities. However, in your case, all you appear to possess is the famous pedigree compiled by Cambrensis. That in itself proves nothing either way because there is no connection to your Walsh family going back clearly, generation by generation. I might as well call Harald Hardrada a 'dear relative' because I have some recent Norwegian ancestry.

What you need is a generation by generation pedigree leading from the present back to Strongbow's times and they are as rare as hens' teeth in Ireland. Fortunately, in England there exist some pedigrees [one of my maternal lines] that can be tied up with family tree detective work as 'the other half of the jigsaw'. I am able to trace one line of mine back to Yorkshire in the late 1500s, and then with the aid of a pedigree by George Ormerod, to continue the line through, generation by generation, to some Norman-descended landed families in the east Cheshire [De Legh, Del Sherd, De Clayton etc] of the 1200s. Of course, NPEs may lurk there, but at least one can follow the line back, generation by generation. Using a pedigree by Gerald Cambrensis that doesn't lead anywhere seems a waste of time .

Is there any evidence that your Irish Walshes ever owned land? That seems a good place to start for a clue.
 
Well Fitz names are never "anglisced" by default they originate in Hiberno-Norman-French (as some of the academics call the local written versions of Norman-French in Ireland). The most famous line of Fitzmaurice is actually a branch of the Geraldines (Fitzgearlds) from somewhat later. (late 13th centuries). Their mainline continues to this day as the current Marquess of Lansdowne, whose heir holds the title "Earl of Kerry".

Their namesake been: Maurice FitzThomas -- the brother of John FitzGerald, 1st Baron Desmond (Desmond line -- now extinct). John was killed at the battle of Battle of Callann in 1261. (Knight of Kerry direct descendant of John through his illegimate son: Sir Maurice Buidhe fitz John)


1261.5
Cocad mor & uilcc imda do denam do Fingen mac Domnaill Mec Carthaig & da braithrib ar Gallaib in hoc anno.


1261.6
Sluagad mor la Clainn Gerailt i nDesmumain d'indsaigid Meg Carthaig, & do innsaig Mag Carthaig iat-som & tucc maidm forro & do marbad mac Tomas .i. Eoan proprium nomen & a mac & u. ritere x. maille friu, & ocht mbaruin maithe faeirri & gilli oca imda & sersenaigh diairmithi do marbad and o sin. In Barrach Mor do marbad lais beos. Fingin Mag Carthaig do marbad do Gallaib iar sin & rigi Desmuman do gabail da derbrathair donn athcleirech Mac Carthaig dia eis.


1261.5

Very destructive war was waged against the Galls this year by Fingen son of Domnall Mac Carthaig and his kinsmen.


1261.6


A great hosting was made by the Fitz Geralds into Desmond, to attack Mac Carthaig; but he attacked them and routed them and fitz Thomas, John by name, and his son were killed there, as well as fifteen knights, besides eight noble barons and many young squires and countless soldiery. He killed Barrach Mor (Barry More) also. Afterwards Fingen Mac Carthaig was killed by the Galls and the kingship of Desmond was assumed by his brother, the Ex-cleric Mac Carthaig.


The other main branch of the Geraldines are the Leinster branch represented to this day by the Duke of Leinster the premier peer in Ireland. The spilt between this line and that of the Marquess of Lansdowne dates to the late 12th century.
 
Yes, of course, any pedigree has the possibility of a ratio of NPEs, and they all involve a leap of faith in the sense of ancestral fidelities. However, in your case, all you appear to possess is the famous pedigree compiled by Cambrensis. That in itself proves nothing either way because there is no connection to your Walsh family going back clearly, generation by generation. ....
Is there any evidence that your Irish Walshes ever owned land? That seems a good place to start for a clue.

Yes, most of what I have, actually are land transaction records. However, there was huge event that changed the course of land ownership. Circa 1650, Oliver Cromwell came in and took over. I don't quite understand it but the Butler's don't seem to been have unified in this timeframe. Unfortunately, the Walsh of the Mountain clan resisted Cromwell forcefully. That is was bad idea. Very bad.

After that it took a quite a while before the Walshes recovered to any extent, land holding-wise, and generally for that matter.

I do have much more in the way of pedigree documentation than Gerald de Barri's historical perspective, but that is not the issue. I have multiple pedigrees and as far as I'm concerned they are all unreliable. This is what I was trying to say before.
I do have pedigrees, starting with Gerald Cambrensis writings, but they conflict with each other and must be seen as unreliable. As you are aware, Yorkie, I think almost any pedigree reaching back a 1000 years is subject to the high opportunity for NPEs.

As you also know from other postings, I think that any pedigree going back to 1000 AD is highly suspect and subject to NPEs, no matter how rock solid the documentation. Here is why. If we use the ISOGG recommended NPE rate of 4% per generation when the father of record is confident he is the biological father you have a 4% risk of NPE per generation that accumulates over time. Over 33 generations, the odds are only about 25% that the Y chromosome remained constant... not good for paper only pedigrees. If the records have any risk in them, it only gets worse.

This is why I advocate the DNA triangulation method that is being used in the Wettin Man/English King scenario or the Royal Stewart scenario. I don't know if either of those is correct, but I think they are on the right track, methodology-wise. Still triangulation does not prove a pedigree. It just says we are in the right family.

I'm not trying to say this indicates a Norman Y lineage. That's hard to pin down anyway. My guess is we have a Welsh paternal lineage. I just think the alignment of the DNA evidence, family history and surnames seems to be in alignment for a migration with the Cambro-Norman Invasion. That does not prove a high or noble origin or prove anything for that matter. This is just my guess as to the odds based on the specifics of my situation.

Relax, I'm not submitting for any kind nobility or knighthood. I don't care. I'm just trying to figure out the odds where we fit in. I think the DNA is the most reliable thing we have going, in conjunction with various family lineages/surnames and triangulation.
 
Circa 1650, Oliver Cromwell came in and took over. I don't quite understand it but the Butler's don't seem to been have unified in this timeframe. Unfortunately, the Walsh of the Mountain clan resisted Cromwell forcefully. That is was bad idea. Very bad.

In 1650s the 1st Duke of Ormond, James Butler, was in exile in France wiith Charles II, I would imagine it wasn't a good time to be a Butler, best to keep your head down lest Cromwell chop it off.
 
Out of 51 members of haplogroup G in the project, only four surnames (Lannin, Murphy, McCauley, McQuate) could be considered Irish - although McQuate and McCauley can also be Scottish. The vast majority of I2b members have Germanic names.

Hi I am trying to glean whatever information I can re my Ancestors Name = "Lannin" do you have any other information re dating or origins of my Ancestors name,Thanks.

Cheers
Ron
 
Out of 51 members of haplogroup G in the project, only four surnames (Lannin, Murphy, McCauley, McQuate) could be considered Irish - although McQuate and McCauley can also be Scottish. The vast majority of I2b members have Germanic names.

Hi I am trying to glean whatever information I can re my Ancestors Name = "Lannin" do you have any other information re dating or origins of my Ancestors name,Thanks.

Cheers
Ron

From Woulfe's 1923 book
---
Ó LONÁIN—IO Lonane, O Lonan, O Lonnan, O Lannan, O Lennane, Lenane, Lanon, Lannan, Lannon, Lannen, Lannin, Lennon, (Leonard); 'descendant of Lonán' (diminutive of lon, a blackbird); the name (1) of a Cork family who were originally settled in the neighbourhood of Rosscarbery, where they were followers of the O'Learys; and (2) of a Wicklow family who were anciently erenaghs of Kilranelagh; also, not improbably, (3) of an Ossory family. In Co. Cork, it appears to have been generally pronounced Ó Lionáin, and is very often anglicised Leonard.
--

So three separate families whose surname could all be potentially anglisced as Lannin.

-Paul
(DF41+)
 
It seems that I2a2 in the British Isles is not Germanic after all:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ithic-British!?p=532148&viewfull=1#post532148

It is rather Neolithic British, assimilated by Scots later on. Germanic surnames are probably of Lowland Scottish origin. Perhaps most of I2a2 came to Ireland with Lowland Scots. But in Scotland itself, it is a Neolithic British lineage, rather than Germanic.

I guess that it has to be associated with Caledonians rather than with Gaels.
 
Just a comment to say as a Carberry my results confirm I2a1a (I-m26).
 
It seems that I2a2 in the British Isles is not Germanic after all:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ithic-British!?p=532148&viewfull=1#post532148

It is rather Neolithic British, assimilated by Scots later on. Germanic surnames are probably of Lowland Scottish origin. Perhaps most of I2a2 came to Ireland with Lowland Scots. But in Scotland itself, it is a Neolithic British lineage, rather than Germanic.

I guess that it has to be associated with Caledonians rather than with Gaels.


I was wondering (without solid basis) if the most of these Y-I2a2 were not a remnant of Cruithni (Picts?) of Northern Ireland, even if we can suppose these Cruithni had already also Y-R1b-L21+ in them... The "autochtonous" (neolithical) part among Cruithni?
 
Gall = Foreigner
Gal = Valour

Here's an extract from DIL (Dictionary of Irish language -- covering old and middle Irish periods)


In this case Farrell means either "man of valour" (fear = man) or as I see in some texts a corruption of what is written fíor (very) in modern Irish. -- thus perhaps "very valourous / super valourous)

Ruarc is indeed based off a norse first name. This Ruarc was however a member of the Uí Briúin (specifically Uí Briúin Bréfine) However people should not forget that Irish people had no problems adopting foreign firstnames, just as we don't today. Old Norse provides a large amount of loan words into middle Irish specifically around areas of trade/marine/towns etc.

A good example of a Norse influenced name is Manus (Maghnus) which is borrowed from Magnus. It doesn't imply that the McManus's are descended from Vikings. Likewise Lochlann doesn't imply been a viking (Lochlannaigh = Vikings), it became a popular enough firstname. I reckon that a similiar event happened with Dubhghall which became a firstname that was born by men who weren't necessary viking in origin. Their descendants then took the surname Ó Dubhghaill -- thus implying descent from a man called Dubhghall as oppose to meaning "Descendant of Danish Viking". Of course this name survives today in english in the form Dougal and the surname has at least three angliscations. these been Doyle, McDowell, McDougal

-Paul
(DF41+)

Thank very much. I had not read all these answers at this time; good precisions; I agree the linguistic/ethnic origin of personal names are not always the proof of a genealogical/genetical origin. It's a pleasure to have clues by serious people.
 

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