Were the Irish pure R1b before the Viking and British invasions ?

I can easily call all Mc or Mac folks Scots, all O' folks Irish, etc.,

Except of course that Mac surnames have just as much chance as been Irish as scottish, after all it literally means "son" in Irish & Scottish Gaidhlig
 
I can easily call all Mc or Mac folks Scots, all O' folks Irish, etc., etc. There are some clear Welsh names like Price/Rice but I'm not sure that some of the very common names like Jones and Roberts couldn't be English as well as Welsh.

Help? How can I tackle this?

I usually look at surname frequency distributions. Maciamo posted some links here. I actually use the Ancestry.com one the most for the British Isles.

Some rules of thumb for "John" patronymics (not always reliable):
Jane: Cornish
Jayne: Welsh
Jaynes: English
Jenkin: Cornish
Jenkins: Welsh
Johns: Cornish
Johnson: English
Johnston: Scottish
Johnstone: Scottish
Jones: Welsh
McKean: Scottish
McKeown: Irish
 
You can certainly add Doyle Moesan. There are around thirteen names that stem from Dubh-Ghaill, I can`t remember them all but Doyle, O`Doyle, Dougall, McDougall, McDowell, Dowell. If you are wishing to read something in particular regarding Dubhghaill, there are some entries in Book of Four Masters from about 978 to 1012 (give or take a year either way, I can`t remember dates exactly).
For sure it is no easy task trying to work through the Scottish and Irish surnames as there are indeed many changes and sub branches. As for the Norse/Vikings many of them became more Gaelic than the Gaelic and their names (most taken from personal names and brought to be surnames) were then transcribed into Gaelic then Anglicized.

The Doyles seem to be mostly within the subclades P312/S116. Wouldn't that indicate Celtic ancestry rather than Scandinavian?

The Doyle DNA Project: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/doyle/results
 
The Doyles seem to be mostly within the subclades P312/S116. Wouldn't that indicate Celtic ancestry rather than Scandinavian?

The Doyle DNA Project: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/doyle/results

To be honest elghund, I`m not sure about that.
You could look at Maciamos R1b tree in the haplogroup list.
All I know is on the link there seems to be entries for R1b1a2a1a1b4 (f) which I thought (and I may be wrong) was common to Norway, Irish Sea and Hebrides
Perhaps some-one with more knowledge on the subject will enlighten us..
Also it would not be such a great surprise I feel to find markers outside what one could expect as if you recall the vikings were known for slave taking. I recently read something ( sorry at the moment cannot remember where) regarding their ships coming into Dublin harbour loaded with slaves and among them many Picts.
This is why I find interesting the surname projects that are going at the moment as they are shedding better light on the matter.
 
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I am new to DNA but found this a very interesting thread, my family are Butlers from the Kilkenny\Laois area of Ireland and I have justfound out that I am I2b1C so question I have is, as most of the Butlers whoclaim Irish descent seem to belong to R1b1a2 and the in comming Butlers were Normans from the Fitzwalter family, which group is most likely to have arrived with the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1170 , I2b1 or R1b1a2? .

Does P78 (I2b1C) have any significance to the above ?
 
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I am new to DNA but found this a very interesting thread, my family are Butlers from the Kilkenny\Laois area of Ireland and I have justfound out that I am I2b1C so question I have is, as most of the Butlers whoclaim Irish descent seem to belong to R1b1a2 and the in comming Butlers were Normans from the Fitzwalter family, which group is most likely to have arrived with the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1170 , I2b1 or R1b1a2? .

Does P78 (I2b1C) have any significance to the above ?

It's difficult to separate Normans from the pre-Celtic/Celtic/Anglo-Saxon mix that was in the British Isles by the time the Normans arrived. There are some subclades that are fairly clearly part of one migration or another, but the commonly mentioned ones don't tend to be. We'd need something much more specific than "R1b1a2," to begin with.

I will say that your subclade, P78, is notoriously eastern in its distribution among I2-M223. If your family was from just about anywhere but the British Isles, I would guess a Gothic or Vandal connection. As is, I don't think I can rule out an Anglo-Saxon or Norman connection. You look to be in a cluster with names like Mathews, Mackabee, Roberts, and Hall... not a lot of Norman names there, and you're also not too far from continental names like Hermans, Budarick, and Kuhn. So based on current evidence, an Anglo-Saxon origin of your family looks perhaps more likely, unless you have some interesting Norman-looking matches I'm not seeing.
 
Thank you for the reply I have 4 routes to consider

My I2B1C ancestor went straight into Ireland
My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland as part of the early Vikingsraids, 795 onwards
My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland with the Normans from 1169onwards
My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland at another time notassociated with the Vikings or Normans

Having done some research I2B1C does not seem to be verycommon is the south of Ireland perhaps this is simply down to the lack ofsubclade testing; after all I am new to this myself.
 
I did some further research on the Irish FTDNA project the only other I2B1C match was for the surname of MULLINAX which was a locational name 'of de Moloneaux' from the noble family who trace their descent from William the Conqueror, from Molineaux-sur-Seine, near Rouen. They trace their descent fromWilliam de Molines, a Norman named in the Battle Abbey Roll (a list of men who fought with William the Conqueror at Hastings.
 
I did some further research on the Irish FTDNA project the only other I2B1C match was for the surname of MULLINAX which was a locational name 'of de Moloneaux' from the noble family who trace their descent from William the Conqueror, from Molineaux-sur-Seine, near Rouen. They trace their descent fromWilliam de Molines, a Norman named in the Battle Abbey Roll (a list of men who fought with William the Conqueror at Hastings.

I see a Mullinax sample at the M223 Project, but the GD to the Butler sample is 13 on 25 markers... too distant to make any conclusions about the Butler sample. The others I mentioned also have GDs around 13, and not on the slow mutating DYS393 marker, and so are probably more relevant.
 
Sparkey

Thank you for the reply

What I was trying to establish, due the lack of confirmed I2B1Cin Ireland, was that some Irish I2BIC’s were of Norman descent, I agee that there are a number of members of the M233 who are probably more relevant but it isthe Norman\Irish link that really interests me.

The issue I have is that there are very few IrishI2B1C’s so it’s difficult to draw a conclusion, I am sure that the given sometime other I2B1’s will prove to be I2B1C
 
It's difficult to separate Normans from the pre-Celtic/Celtic/Anglo-Saxon mix that was in the British Isles by the time the Normans arrived. There are some subclades that are fairly clearly part of one migration or another, but the commonly mentioned ones don't tend to be. We'd need something much more specific than "R1b1a2," to begin with.

This is absolutely true. R1b-U106 in the Ukraine and R1b-L21 in England may not have much to do with each other, likewise R1b-L21>Z253 in Switzerland is different than R1b-L21>DF13* in France.
 
Thank you for the reply I have 4 routes to consider

My I2B1C ancestor went straight into Ireland
My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland as part of the early Vikingsraids, 795 onwards
My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland with the Normans from 1169onwards
My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland at another time notassociated with the Vikings or Normans

Having done some research I2B1C does not seem to be verycommon is the south of Ireland perhaps this is simply down to the lack ofsubclade testing; after all I am new to this myself.

Butler, this is very interesting. We are not of the same paternal lineage as I'm R1b-L21>L513>L705.2 but my family inter-married with Butler's in Ireland so we have a possible connection. In fact, my immigrant ancestor from south Co. Kilkenny has the given name of Edmund and he told his family it was passed down from the Butler's. There was an Edmund Butler in the ancestry somewhere.

from a deed said:
On Thursday next after the feast of St. John the Baptist, in the year 1374, Geoffrey, son of Thomas, son of Nicholas, son of Howel Walsh, appointed ... to deliver to James le Botiller, Earl of Ormond, the lands and buildings of his manor and town of Melagh and Cannderstown in Iverk.

I've got old pedigrees from books that show several intermarriages. Here is one.
The Lament for John MacWalter Walsh by JC Walsh said:
Richard's son was Edmund and ... in the old Abbey of Jerpoint, ... there is a coffin shaped slab in one of the sepulchral niches in the chancel, to which it was removed from its original position beneath the tower. It bears a raised eight pointed cross, a shield bearing the arms of the Passion, and another with the arms of Walsh of Castle Hale. There is rich foliage ornamentation. Some of the letters of the inscription are obliterated. It reads, in old English character:
Here lies Edmund Walsh and Johanna Butler his wife. On whose souls God have mercy. A.D. 1476"

These names do intermingle.


a try concerning some surnames: waiting the help of somebody with accurate and vaster knowledge
Irish and British surnames :
from some books :
« Normans » common surnames in Ireland :
...
BUTLER previously FITZWALTER name changed in 1177 ('chief butler' function, french « bouteiller »)
...
BARRETT from France, with Normans
...
WALL norman : De Valle, 'du val'

WALSH 'welsh', 'britton' : name of a lot of Welshmen that accompagnied the Normans
...
scandinave families gaelicized (as in Scotland) :
... MACDOUGALL, McDOWELL

I think we should be cautious in saying Cambro-Norman invaders into Ireland were of Norman descent, at least on the Y lineage side. Many were probably Welsh. There was a lot of intermarriages between Norman Marcher Lord families and Welsh royalty and landholders in Wales prior to the invasion of Ireland. Of course, some of the Norman allies were actually Flemish or Breton so "what's an Anglo-Norman?" is probably not answered simply.

However, I think there is something to all of these names as found in Ireland. The Y DNA does back some of this up. I know my Walsh matches with several families actually located now in Wales - mainly Morgan's. I also match with the Barrett's of Co. Mayo which supports an old poem about the "Welshmen of Tirawley" where the Barret and Walsh were brothers who fought with the Cambro-Normans. We also have a MacDougall who matches. It seems we are Welsh, but we do have Frenchman named Bergeron and a Swede from Ostergotland who also match our 1000 year old Y lineage so who knows?

My clan progenitor is reportedly Philip Walsh who was a knight fighting for FitzStephen under de Clare (Strongbow.) I've got old pedigrees, but thats the problem. I have multiple to choose from that vary to... FitzStephen as a grandfather, or Raymond le Gros, or to dear relative de Clare, or to the de Barri's (of Gerald of Wales) but also to one of the Twelve Lords (knights) of Glamorgan (under Robert Fitzhamon) and to, you guessed it, King Arthur.
 
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Cambro-Normans is a very good term, as Strongbow himself was a Norman it would make sense that hishigher ranking supporters would also be Normans, the Strongbow invasion of Ireland takes place only about 100 years after the conquest the problem we have is that we do not have a definative DNA label for what consitutes a Norman.
 
Butler, this is very interesting. We are not of the same paternal lineage as I'm R1b-L21>L513>L705.2 but my family inter-married with Butler's in Ireland so we have a possible connection. In fact, my immigrant ancestor from south Co. Kilkenny has the given name of Edmund and he told his family it was passed down from the Butler's. There was an Edmund Butler in the ancestry somewhere.



I've got old pedigrees from books that show several intermarriages. Here is one.


These names do intermingle.




I think we should be cautious in saying Cambro-Norman invaders into Ireland were of Norman descent, at least on the Y lineage side. Many were probably Welsh. There was a lot of intermarriages between Norman Marcher Lord families and Welsh royalty and landholders in Wales prior to the invasion of Ireland. Of course, some of the Norman allies were actually Flemish or Breton so "what's an Anglo-Norman?" is probably not answered simply.

However, I think there is something to all of these names as found in Ireland. The Y DNA does back some of this up. I know my Walsh matches with several families actually located now in Wales - mainly Morgan's. I also match with the Barrett's of Co. Mayo which supports an old poem about the "Welshmen of Tirawley" where the Barret and Walsh were brothers who fought with the Cambro-Normans. We also have a MacDougall who matches. It seems we are Welsh, but we do have Frenchman named Bergeron and a Swede from Ostergotland who also match our 1000 year old Y lineage so who knows?

My clan progenitor is reportedly Philip Walsh who was a knight fighting for FitzStephen under de Clare (Strongbow.) I've got old pedigrees, but thats the problem. I have multiple to choose from that vary to... FitzStephen as a grandfather, or Raymond le Gros, or to dear relative de Clare, or to the de Barri's (of Gerald of Wales) but also to one of the Twelve Lords (knights) of Glamorgan (under Robert Fitzhamon) and to, you guessed it, King Arthur.

You refer to old pedigrees that link your name Walsh [which, according to Richard Roche's [1995] 'The Norman Invasion of Ireland' hails from Pembrokeshire in Wales] to several Cambro-Norman sources including your 'dear relative, de Clare'. That Walsh links to the Barrys may well be true as there is evidence from Roche that Barry too is of Pembrokeshire origin, as were Barretts.

The problem is that no Irish records exist to my knowledge that will link your Irish ancestors of the 19th century directly back, generation by generation, to the Walshes of the Cambro-Norman invasion. Even if there was, you would have to trust in the fidelities of an awful lot of ancestors. Your Walsh matches to Barrys and Barretts might have nothing to do with Cambro-Norman origins but rather to shared native Irish origins [your Ydna lineage does not rule this out]. Perhaps it is possible that you descend from Irish peasants who adopted the name Walsh through servitude, as is possible with the matching Barry and Barrett families and there may be no link whatsoever with 'dear relative, de Clare'? Your surname Walsh is apparently the 4th most common in Ireland, which also considerably reduces your chances of being of Cambro-Norman lineage.
 
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You refer to old pedigrees that link your name Walsh [which, according to Richard Roche's [1995] 'The Norman Invasion of Ireland' hails from Pembrokeshire in Wales] to several Cambro-Norman sources including your 'dear relative, de Clare'. That Walsh links to the Barrys may well be true as there is evidence from Roche that Barry too is of Pembrokeshire origin, as were Barretts.

The problem is that no Irish records exist to my knowledge that will link your Irish ancestors of the 19th century directly back, generation by generation, to the Walshes of the Cambro-Norman invasion. Even if there was, you would have to trust in the fidelities of an awful lot of ancestors. Your Walsh matches to Barrys and Barretts might have nothing to do with Cambro-Norman origins but rather to shared native Irish origins [your Ydna lineage does not rule this out]. Perhaps it is possible that you descend from Irish peasants who adopted the name Walsh through servitude, as is possible with the matching Barry and Barrett families and there may be no link whatsoever with 'dear relative, de Clare'? Your surname Walsh is apparently the 4th most common in Ireland, which also considerably reduces your chances of being of Cambro-Norman lineage.

Yes, of course could be right that since my MDKA is from Ireland he could have an Old Irish origin. I do have pedigrees, starting with Gerald Cambrensis writings, but they conflict with each other and must be seen as unreliable. As you are aware, Yorkie, I think almost any pedigree reaching back a 1000 years is subject to the high opportunity for NPEs.

However, I think the odds of an Old Irish origin for my Y lineage prior to the Cambro-Norman Invasion are diminished with by the nature by Y DNA triangulations. This is the benefit of deep ancestral testing.

My only confirmed Irish matches are from two surname groups, the Barrett's and other people with Walsh variants (Welsh/Welch.) As I mentioned, this aligns with the family story that the Barrett and Walsh were brothers in the Cambro-Norman forces and descended from the Lords of Glamorganshire. Of course the name Walsh/Welsh/Welch is also indicative of Wales origin.

The triangulation evidence is that the majority of my matches are from Wales, including citizens of South Wales. Most intriguing thing to me is the Morgan family that I'm related that reside in Monmouthsire, which is adjacent to Glamorgan. This whole little group of Barrett's, Walsh's, Morgans is estimated by Nordtvedt's TMRCA tool to be about a 1000 years old so the geographic break up of the group did not happen much prior to that if at all.

I'm not trying to say this indicates a Norman Y lineage. That's hard to pin down anyway. My guess is we have a Welsh paternal lineage. I just think the alignment of the DNA evidence, family history and surnames seems to be in alignment for a migration with the Cambro-Norman Invasion. That does not prove a high or noble origin or prove anything for that matter. This is just my guess as to the odds based on the specifics of my situation.
 
The Barrets are definetly "post-invasion" along with the Walshes. Just to emphaise Mike's point on the surname in Irish the name Walsh is Breathnach which literally means "Welsh man" -- obviously emphasising the original meaning of word British/Breton. The name for the welsh language in Irish been: Breatnais

Anyways here's some extracts regarding the Barrets from Woulfe's 1923 book. Unsurprising there are two origins for the name:

BÁRÓID—VIII—Barrett; 'son of Baraud' (a Norman form of the Teutonic Berwald). Families of this name settled in Ireland at the time of the Anglo-Norman invasion. The Barretts were an influential family in Cork, and the name is still well known throughout Munster. Compare with Bairéid.

BAIRÉID—VIIIBared, Baret, Barrett; 'son of Baret.' Bared, Baret, Boret, Borret, and Borred occur in Domesday Book as names of persons holding land in the time of Edward the Confessor. The name is, therefore, most probably Anglo-Saxon and distinct from Báróid, which see. The Barretts settled in the 13th century in Tirawley, where they became numerous and powerful. In later times they formed a clan after the Irish fashion, the head of which was known as Mac Bhaitín Bairéid; and there were sub-clans known as Clann Tóimín and Clann Aindriú.

As can be seen in the above texts the Barrets in Ireland like the Walshes in general became more "Irish then the Irish themselves" -- adopting Irish law and inheritance systems (The "Corporate Clan" structure).

Of course the first couple generations of Cambro-Normans heavily married with local Irish "grandees", by the mid 13th century the majority would have at least had either an Irish mother or an Irish wife. This was the same obviously in Wales. An interesting case is that of the Fitzgearld's.

Gearld de Windsor married Nest ferch Rhys -> Maurice FitzGerald (whose wife was half Irish and granddaughter of Muircheartach Ua Briain highking of Ireland) -> Gerald FitzMaurice and Thomas FitzMaurice FitzGerald

Gearld FitzMaurice been the ancestor of the Duke of Leinster Geraldines where's as Thomas was the ancestor of the Earl of Desmond line of the Geraldines.

Giraldus Cambrensis was also a grandchild of Gearld de Windsor and Nest, though in his case he's a member of the Barry (de Barry) family:

de BARRA—XIde Barry, Barry; Norman 'de Barri,' i.e., of Barri, probably in Normandy; one of the oldest and most illustrious of the Anglo-Norman families in Ireland. The name occurs in the earliest Anglo-Irish records, and has always been specially associated with the County of Cork. In the year 1179,Robert FitzStephen granted to his nephew, Philip de Barry, the three cantreds of Ui Liatháin, Muscraighe-trí-máighe, and Cinel Aodha, now represented respectively by the baronies of Barrymore, Orrery, and Kinelea; and this grant was confirmed by King John in 1207 to William de Barry, son and heir of Philip. In the course of time the Barrys became one of the most numerous and powerful families in Munster. They divided into several branches, the heads of which were known respectively as An Barrach Mór (the Great Barry), Barrach Ruadh (Red Barry), Barrach Óg (Young Barry), Barrach Maol (Bald Barry), Barrach Láidir (Strong Barry); and one branch adopted the Irish patronymic surname ofMac Ádaim, which see. The Barrys suffered considerably in the wars of the 17th century, but are still numerous and respectable throughout Munster. There was also a family of the name in Co. Wexford. The Barrys of Co. Limerick, in many instances, belong to the old Irish family of Ó Beargha (which see), and not to the Anglo-Norman Barrys.

Most of the foot-soldiers/archers who would have accompanied the initial invasion would have been welsh.
 
It wouldn't surprise that Walsh is like Smith in English. You have multiple founders, the common point in this case not been occupation (Smithery) but in Welsh origin. In general a large part of both the common soldiery as well as the settlers brought in during the late 12th/early-mid 13th centuries were Welsh in origin.

I should point out that even though Walsh is in the top 5 surnames in Ireland that in 1911 census that numbers with surname Walsh/Walshe/Breathnach numbered less then 0.8% of total island population.
 
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It wouldn't surprise that Walsh is like Smith in English. You have multiple founders, the common point in this case not been occupation (Smithery) but in Welsh origin. In general a large part of both the common soldiery as well as the settlers brought in during the late 12th/early-mid 13th centuries were Welsh in origin.

Absolutely I agree, I'm an administrator on the Walsh/Welsh and Welsh/Welch surname projects. BTW, I wish I could consolidate them. It is very apparent that there many Y lineages of Walsh/Welsh/Welch surnamed people. It's crazy.

Do you have more information on what you are calling the "settler" migrations post the 1169-70 invasion? I'd love to read more about that. Perhaps there are different parts of Wales in these migrations. I think West Midlands might be considered along side Wales too. What about Cornwall during the 12th-13th centuries? Was it linked closely with Wales? In other words, would the Cambro-Normans have drawn upon Cornwall for support too or did Cornwall have different circumstances/leadership at the time?

I should point out that even though Walsh is in the top 5 surnames in Ireland that in 1911 census that numbers with surname Walsh/Walshe/Breathnach numbered less then 0.8% of total island population.

That's interesting. I didn't know that it was just a small percentage of the population. I'd always assumed it was more populous.
 
Absolutely I agree, I'm an administrator on the Walsh/Welsh and Welsh/Welch surname projects. BTW, I wish I could consolidate them. It is very apparent that there many Y lineages of Walsh/Welsh/Welch surnamed people. It's crazy.

Do you have more information on what you are calling the "settler" migrations post the 1169-70 invasion? I'd love to read more about that. Perhaps there are different parts of Wales in these migrations. I think West Midlands might be considered along side Wales too. What about Cornwall during the 12th-13th centuries? Was it linked closely with Wales? In other words, would the Cambro-Normans have drawn upon Cornwall for support too or did Cornwall have different circumstances/leadership at the time?



That's interesting. I didn't know that it was just a small percentage of the population. I'd always assumed it was more populous.

Well I have to admit I haven't read much about 13th century Irish history, generally my interests are either in the period before then or the period from 1400-1700. It's my general recollection though I would need to do some digging through some of books I have.

With regards to "West Midlands" I would imagine so, after all the city of Dublin was given to the merchants of Bristol. I see for example the following on wiki page about History of Dublin:

The siege mentality of medieval Dubliners is best illustrated by their annual pilgrimage to the area called Fiodh Chuilinn, or Holly Wood (rendered in English as Cullenswood) in Ranelagh, where, in 1209, five hundred recent settlers from Bristol had been massacred by the O'Toole clan during an outing outside the city limits. Every year on "Black Monday", the Dublin citizens would march out of the city to the spot where the atrocity had happened and raise a black banner in the direction of the mountains to challenge the Irish to battle in a gesture of symbolic defiance. This was still so dangerous that, until the 17th century, the participants had to be guarded by the city militia and a stockade against "the mountain enemy".

I believe there are at least 3,500-4,000 potential irish surnames or variations of. As a result with so many the largest ones don't breach 1% each.
 
... Gearld de Windsor married Nest ferch Rhys -> Maurice FitzGerald (whose wife was half Irish and granddaughter of Muircheartach Ua Briain highking of Ireland) -> Gerald FitzMaurice and Thomas FitzMaurice FitzGerald
....
Most of the foot-soldiers/archers who would have accompanied the initial invasion would have been welsh.

Don't forget, the Cambro-Normans really were Cambro-Normans (Welsh-Normans.) There was a great deal of intermarriage. For instance, a number of the Norman type surnamed folks descended from Nest ferch Rhys, a Welsh princess who also has been named "Helen of Wales", "Queen Bee of the Cambro-Norman Swarm" and "Mother of the Walshes."

Regardless of their Y lineages, FitzStephen, FitzGerald, de Carew, FitzWalter, FitzMaurice, de Barri and even FitzHenry had Welsh blood in them.
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~walsh/strongbw.html

As far as I can tell, de Clare (Strongbow) himself, only left one male offspring, Gilbert (who would've been half Old Irish) but he died in childhood.

Would the surname FitzMaurice have evolved into Anglicized variants? Would FitzMorris be a possibility, ending up as Morris?

Wikipedia_Morris said:
Britain

In England and Scotland, the name can be derived from the Old French personal name Maurice which was introduced to Britain by the Normans. It can also be derived from the Latin Mauritius, a derivative of Maurus. This name was used by several early Christian saints. The first Morrises in the British Isles were recorded as living in the bordering counties of Monmouthshire, Wales and Herefordshire, England by the Norman Conquest of 1066 AD.[3] In Wales, Morris is an Anglicisation of the Welsh personal name Meurig (ultimately derived from Latin Mauritius).[1] Additionally the name Morris is of Anglo-Norman origin deriving from the 'de Marisco' line.


Ireland

In Ireland, the name is an anglicisation of the Gaelic Ó Muiris and can derive from a number of sources. Firstly from Norman settlers who assimilated into the Gaelic language and culture, for example the Norman Morrises who settled in Galway in 1485 and became one of the Tribes of Galway. Secondly the name may be a variant of Morrissey (Ó Muireasa), who were a branch of the Uí Fiachrach clan, or also from Muiris who was a member of the MacDermot royal family.

The reason I ask is there are some Morrises in my group. I never really thought about it. There are some R1b-L21>DF21, R1b-L21>DF41, R1b-L21>L226, R1b-L21* Morris/Morrison people, but I also have a group associated with me. The ones associated with me (R1b-L705.2) list an origin in Monmouthshire of South Wales, same county as the L705.2 Morgan's. I'm glad this came up in the conversation. I need to cover this in my group.
 

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