Economy The US and European Economic crisis

Greece is also a very religious country. The stereotype is that religious people are easier to manipulate, I wonder if this had anything to do with it. I know that in my own country (Bosnia) religion is used by politicians to distract them from the economic problems. Churches and Mosques get built, yet very rarely useful things such as factories.

Could be, as one can notice that less religious countries are more economically prosperous, at least in Europe.

In my mind it is also strongly tied to emotions. The further South you go the more emotional people become, it even holds truth beyond Mediterranean Sea, once we get to Africa, even more emotional people are. Further North you go the less emotional people become, also described as "cold". I guess, most of us can agree, (I'm yet to look for some studies) that strong emotions can distort logic. Anyway, my observation is that clearer logic goes with better economy, where "emotional logic" equals with not so good one.
Of course there are many more reasons behind good or bad economies, but unclouded logic could build order and stability in politics, market and society in general, the base of good economy.
This political and economic stability is often ruined in the South. Emotional people have harder time to compromise, as exaggerated saying goes "they either love you or will kill you". They also tend to bend the logic to vindicate themselves (make themselves special), and blame others for all the bad (Sparky will know psychological term for this :) ). These elements create mess, and render people blind to learning on previous mistakes.

Having said that, I'm not against emotions at all, I'm emotional myself, lol. People of South have advantage of stronger family ties, traditions, good food, taste in cloths and cars among others. Most people of North dream about living by Mediterranean Sea among emotional, warm and expressive people.
 
That's why I admire the stance Iceland has taken during this economic tailspin (aka depression). They weighed their options as a people using cool heads and reason, looked at the pros and cons...and then told the multi-national bankers to pound sand.
 
That's why I admire the stance Iceland has taken during this economic tailspin (aka depression). They weighed their options as a people using cool heads and reason, looked at the pros and cons...and then told the multi-national bankers to pound sand.

Iceland is a remarkable case, but I doubt it has much to do with their cool reasoning. It has rather to do with:
1. Iceland being a homogeneous society similar to Norway and perhaps Finland where all people share the same morals and interest, as opposed to EU or especially Greece, which is a very fragmented society by super-rich oligarchs and clans.
2. The lack of fragmentation makes corruption very difficult because individual excesses become more visible and get prevented more early
3. The lack of corruption preserves democracy.
4. Democratic unity is strength during negotiation with banks, countries and organizations
5. Iceland is perhaps too tiny to be very important, which can be an advantage
 
All excellent points, I agree with all five. But reason did play a role too, it was simple math. Plus Iceland can get much of it's food from the ocean, which comes in handy. I saw recently on a travel video that an Icelandic chef wouldn't use olive oil in a dish because it wasn't produced locally. Tells me they are fostering a sense of independence.
 
All excellent points, I agree with all five. But reason did play a role too, it was simple math. Plus Iceland can get much of it's food from the ocean, which comes in handy. I saw recently on a travel video that an Icelandic chef wouldn't use olive oil in a dish because it wasn't produced locally. Tells me they are fostering a sense of independence.

Yes, they always have been very proud of their independence, probably because they experienced foreign rule a very long time.
Regarding reason, it did not prevent Iceland from getting the biggest financial crisis a country ever experienced, mainly because the've let their banks become so big compared to the country's economic size like nowhere else ever before in history. The three biggest banks played riskful gambling while the population celebrated one debt party after another by financing big cars, houses, boats, based on banking illusions and promises. All made big mistakes together by believing in a kind of new economy more than Greece and Spain did. Now they seem to get away with their mistakes probably due to regained reason, but without their sense of unity this would not help so much I think.
 
well I am returning,

1 400 000 000 swiss franks to UBS as fine for 'handling' LIBOR,

as you no matter bank pay some taxes, or some fine they are above law again,

I have found no estimation what UBS earned from that control of LIBOR, no body goes to prison, and a fine and all are ok, with out more search, case is closed, with just a fine, no matter how many people could have comited suicide from that handling-controling'

the honest bank who pay taxes and 'help me' !!!!!
 
well I am returning,

1 400 000 000 swiss franks to UBS as fine for 'handling' LIBOR,

as you no matter bank pay some taxes, or some fine they are above law again,

I have found no estimation what UBS earned from that control of LIBOR, no body goes to prison, and a fine and all are ok, with out more search, case is closed, with just a fine, no matter how many people could have comited suicide from that handling-controling'

the honest bank who pay taxes and 'help me' !!!!!

I'm sorry but by your logic it goes like this:
Fact, some banks were exposed braking the law, or going bunkrupt. Your conclusion: all banks are bad and banking system should be closed down.

Don't you see, that by the same token you condemned yourself:
Fact, some Greeks don't pay taxes, some are even corrupt. Conclusion (according to your logic): all Greeks are bad, I'm bad and corrupt too, because I'm Greek.
Fact, some tourist services in Greece, like B&B, are run badly; bad food, dirty rooms, charging extras, plus some hide income, not to pay taxes. Conclusion: all B&B are bad for us, let's close the whole industry down.

Let's close the Greece down!
 
I'm sorry but by your logic it goes like this:
Fact, some banks were exposed braking the law, or going bunkrupt. Your conclusion: all banks are bad and banking system should be closed down.

Don't you see, that by the same token you condemned yourself:
Fact, some Greeks don't pay taxes, some are even corrupt. Conclusion (according to your logic): all Greeks are bad, I'm bad and corrupt too, because I'm Greek.
Fact, some tourist services in Greece, like B&B, are run badly; bad food, dirty rooms, charging extras, plus some hide income, not to pay taxes. Conclusion: all B&B are bad for us, let's close the whole industry down.

Let's close the Greece down!

I think you both have a lot of common ground. You both don't really like most banks, but at the same time you are pessimistic about governments and corruption. I guess the only difference is your views on how harmful banks are.
 
I'm sorry but by your logic it goes like this:
Fact, some banks were exposed braking the law, or going bunkrupt. Your conclusion: all banks are bad and banking system should be closed down.

Don't you see, that by the same token you condemned yourself:
Fact, some Greeks don't pay taxes, some are even corrupt. Conclusion (according to your logic): all Greeks are bad, I'm bad and corrupt too, because I'm Greek.
Fact, some tourist services in Greece, like B&B, are run badly; bad food, dirty rooms, charging extras, plus some hide income, not to pay taxes. Conclusion: all B&B are bad for us, let's close the whole industry down.

Let's close the Greece down!

:LOL:

the other side of the moon has another picture,

some Banks pay taxes, so lets support banks,
some banks created (stupid, non productive?) jobs so lets support Banks,

so lets open more banks,
because 5-6 banks in Canada pay taxes banks are good, but what will happen if they collapse? who will pay damage,
to conclude my debate friend,
feeel free to tell us how many banks broke the law, how many collapse, what was the charge in simple people,
and last how many bankers went to prison?

your logic is nuclear bomb is tremendous and we have it, so it is good, lets make more bombs.
conservative in food are good for preserve food with no electricity, lets create more preserved foods with conservatives,
If general-hamburger Donald Mc chicken pays big number taxes, then is ok, feed the world with NH4Cl.

I rember Mao in 50's wanted to create so much steel that took farmers to produce everywhere steel, that created hunger cause less farmers worked, But no, according mao it was the sparrows that eat the grain of people, so he make a factory of small air-guns and created patrols to kill sparrows and birds.
yes grain was enough next year, but diseases from mosquitos were full, so he created jobs by giving a net to hunt mosquitos etc etc
accept it, Banking system has gained overpower that must be reduced,
by controling LIBOR and rest means that free-will of market does not work, so no free world,
 
I think you both have a lot of common ground. You both don't really like most banks, but at the same time you are pessimistic about governments and corruption. I guess the only difference is your views on how harmful banks are.
Pretty much so. Generally I think the Banks are not much different than other industries, there are bad and good depending on individual businesses. They are all run by people, people are not perfect, therefore businesses or governments are not perfect. Most depends on quality of a boss and top management.
I'm very impressed and in favor of new companies run by entrepreneurs/visionaries. I'm usually less impressed by big old companies run by bureaucratic clerks, most interested only in making money, accompanied by mediocre product and bad customer service. They are only marginally better than bureaucrats in governments, and worse on some occasions. Probably the main difference is that clerks in companies had to be kept more accountable on more occasions than government clerks, who always can count on fresh taxpayers money to spend.
I believe that our political system is overdue for big reforms (nothing much changed, in political structures, since the fall of monarchies after WWI) for XXI century world. On other hand our capitalistic-free market economies are evolving with times (almost by natural selection) adjusting to competition and correcting due to costumers demand. Unfortunately, too many unqualified government bureaucrats have power to change economic and financial environment. To make matter worst, even economic experts are lost in today's complexity of financial markets. The financial and economic systems are so complex, coupled with psychology of groups, either customers or investors, that even the best computer models can't calculate consequences of changes to the markets.

My answer to causes of Greek economic maladies is that human incompetence in understanding economy and its complexity (in Greece and outside) is the cause of their problem. Yetos claims that evil forces of antigreek financial conspiracy is the cause.
I say "look mostly inside for the problem", Yetos says "look mostly outside for the problem."
 
I believe that our political system is overdue for big reforms (nothing much changed, in political structures, since the fall of monarchies after WWI) for XXI century world.

Well I don't know if you would consider this major, but the West did adopt a lot of socialist policies in order to compete with the Soviet Bloc. Greater government regulation was also a major reform. Both were pretty positive developments, though I think that the welfare system of many countries is far too generous. Instead of giving unemployed people money for free, it would be more productive to just give them a temporary minimum-wage government job.
 
We are facing another "fiscal cliff" here in the U.S., which doesn't concern me as much as the powers that be tell me it should.
What does make me slightly nervous is that internet connectivity could be impacted--then I would miss putting all my crackpot ideas out into the cyber universe.

Having a free exchange of ideas over national borders like this does seem too good to be true sometimes.
 
Pretty much so. Generally I think the Banks are not much different than other industries, there are bad and good depending on individual businesses. They are all run by people, people are not perfect, therefore businesses or governments are not perfect. Most depends on quality of a boss and top management.
I'm very impressed and in favor of new companies run by entrepreneurs/visionaries. I'm usually less impressed by big old companies run by bureaucratic clerks, most interested only in making money, accompanied by mediocre product and bad customer service. They are only marginally better than bureaucrats in governments, and worse on some occasions. Probably the main difference is that clerks in companies had to be kept more accountable on more occasions than government clerks, who always can count on fresh taxpayers money to spend.
I believe that our political system is overdue for big reforms (nothing much changed, in political structures, since the fall of monarchies after WWI) for XXI century world. On other hand our capitalistic-free market economies are evolving with times (almost by natural selection) adjusting to competition and correcting due to costumers demand. Unfortunately, too many unqualified government bureaucrats have power to change economic and financial environment. To make matter worst, even economic experts are lost in today's complexity of financial markets. The financial and economic systems are so complex, coupled with psychology of groups, either customers or investors, that even the best computer models can't calculate consequences of changes to the markets.

My answer to causes of Greek economic maladies is that human incompetence in understanding economy and its complexity (in Greece and outside) is the cause of their problem. Yetos claims that evil forces of antigreek financial conspiracy is the cause.
I say "look mostly inside for the problem", Yetos says "look mostly outside for the problem."


Milan municipal (Italy)

4 banks among them deutsche bamk and JP Morgan had sold 'smart' project to the Milano municipal,
the result .
Milan municipal lost 105 000 000 E
Banks earned 90 000 000 E
after years in courts and judge trials, Milan municipal manage to gain owning of some buildings estimated by banks as 80 000 000 (name value, we don't know the correct comercial value)
means that at end the banks earned 10 000 000 E, and Milano citizens found their shelves to have 25 000 000 E
which at a population of 2 million is 12 500 E each city habbitant
I am not from Italy, but I wonder who went to prison?
that what I am asking, which Banker went to prison for illegal activity?

why we don't close at least the Illegal banks, since some are honest as you say?

the case of antigreek behavor by banker is obvious,
with their politician partners they make hiden contracts, secret agreements, etc to put a heavy weight to greek people so to force him sell cheap its geological source,
the essay and preposition from Deutsch bank is clear.
although soon will learn more about that.

search the case of Goldman Sachs and one ex prime minister,

we are living in the ages of madness, where no body is allowed to make usery, but Bank mafia can, where market are tottaly controled like libor case, where banksters can harash citizens through illegal products, and when the time of αποδιοπομπαιος τραγος (scape goat) is not a goat but nations and simple people, we don't send the banker to prison, but we harash common poor people, or even destroy societies, put labels,
tottaly unforgiven, cause the poor man's lamp can not save the world, anymore,
we need to slain the big fat pig that is still free to eat more people,

for 35 years of Greece in EU nobody said something,
for 35 years was the poor neighbor,
for 35 years nobody ever looked or tried to help the situation of corruption or economy, cause they earn from that
and one day when oil and gas is found...
Greeks are lazy, greeks are sick, greeks are ...
and the day after, before the searching ship gets its results, the executioner's other hand makes a preposition, how will you call that?

to close I think that these 4 banks had found a smart way to get rid of their waste to the Milanese people and also earn from that.
yet although Judge said Illegal, nobody goes to prison or to pay the damage but the poor people.
Money talks, but when money talk much and nobody stopes it, then maybe guns will talk.
from ancient times to modern, when people lose their dignity by the one 'power -ruler' (either religious, economical, etc) we have big changes and big wars.


More?
Manhatan Judges found 420 000 000 $ in hiden accounts in 3 banks,
seems like hiden money is what makes bankers popular,
how many taxes were lost by that?
have we ever thought how much are the hiden money in banks?
consider it unofficial but few months before i heard about trillions of dollars
 
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the case of antigreek behavor by banker is obvious,

Why banks would be anti-Greek but not anti-Canada or anti-Singapore?
 
Why banks would be anti-Greek but not anti-Canada or anti-Singapore?

I never said that banks are anti-Greek,
I said that Greek crisis seems to be organised for years,
that Greek crisis is not so tremendous are some said,
but the whole case was designed before, and sudenly broke, with no explanation of the action behind the scene,
which came to light by a mistake of a message carrier,
same with Spain,
ECB was watching for years and knew, while Greek people did not, and sudenly you wake up one day and they say to you that you must pay for something that you did not buy.
and then come some gorillas and force you to do what you not, and seems no light to tunnel, and when you are kneeled sudenly you hear a solution by the executioner bank,
that is not conspiracy is fact,
I said about a set up case, not anti-Greek policy,
just watch, with 13% taxes nobody wanted to invest in Grrece, and when tax goes 23% sudenly many and big prepositions,
is that logic to you?
 
Are you trying to confuse me, or you have short memory?

read again my previous post, and the 2 closed.
it is clear.

the anti-Greek policy started 4 years ago, when the 'estimation work' in oil finished,


bankers were lending with 10% when bayback was 95% at 2000
bankers were lending with 4% when Greek bayback was 113% of what earned, 2006
and were lending with 8% when bayback drop to 106%,
and stop when the estimation work on gas in cyprus finished
what exctract you may get?
when ability to bayback raise (106%) sudenly comes 3 man and drop it again to 115%with the measures they get.
the nobody wants to invest or lend, and after a work we see from Russia to Qatar to Deutchland and china all want to invest with taxes 23% and not with taxes 13%,
what kind of economical maths are these?
 
read again my previous post, and the 2 closed.
it is clear.

the anti-Greek policy started 4 years ago, when the 'estimation work' in oil finished,


bankers were lending with 10% when bayback was 95% at 2000
bankers were lending with 4% when Greek bayback was 113% of what earned, 2006
and were lending with 8% when bayback drop to 106%,
and stop when the estimation work on gas in cyprus finished
what exctract you may get?
when ability to bayback raise (106%) sudenly comes 3 man and drop it again to 115%with the measures they get.
the nobody wants to invest or lend, and after a work we see from Russia to Qatar to Deutchland and china all want to invest with taxes 23% and not with taxes 13%,
what kind of economical maths are these?
Honestly Yetos, I have no freaking idea what you are talking about, and even when you try to explain (in other posts) it doesn't make sense to me.
 
Yetos, I feel your pain. Greece isn't the only party to suffer because of the global banking crisis. And yes it was made worse by systemic corruption--but life is short. Plant a garden if you have a plot of land, start fishing if your near a water source, get friendly with neighbors you may not know very well. Becoming independent from the financial grid is the best option, and it's one the banks deplore. Look to Iceland for an example.

Living well is the best revenge.
 
Yetos, I feel your pain. Greece isn't the only party to suffer because of the global banking crisis. And yes it was made worse by systemic corruption--but life is short. Plant a garden if you have a plot of land, start fishing if your near a water source, get friendly with neighbors you may not know very well. Becoming independent from the financial grid is the best option, and it's one the banks deplore. Look to Iceland for an example.

Living well is the best revenge.

All man really needs is sex, food, clean water, clean air, someone interesting to talk to, and perhaps a little bit of nature. Everything else is brainwashing to make us thing we need materialism. People don't need expensive cars, designer clothing, jewelry, etc.
 

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