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Thread: Neanderthal y-DNA?

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    "small white ball that girls have"=comedy gold

    Kardu, great to find out the Valuev line is getting tested... I thinking "I1" or possible "N". Let's hope the boxing giant himself consents to the swab.

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    Neanderthals lost their battle with humans with the ending of the the ice age.A reason for
    this was that neanderthals were better suited for cold weather. They were stronger than humans and their diet
    needed to be over 90% meat; so they were better glacial hunters. As the ice retreated north, humans
    gained evolutionary advantage, because their bodies could survive on plants and did not need as much
    meat. As humans became more numerous, finding animals to hunt became harder, so neanderthals slowly were
    running out of food. There is proof of interbreeding with humans thou, ~3%.
    There might be a dirty little secret about neanderthals that popular science does not show on tv. Since they needed so much meat to survive and hunting game became scarce, they might have cannibalized humans and each-other, near the end of their existence. So tales about "werewolfes" attacking villages in the winter, might have some historical basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Neanderthals lost their battle with humans with the ending of the the ice age.A reason for
    this was that neanderthals were better suited for cold weather. They were stronger than humans and their diet
    needed to be over 90% meat; so they were better glacial hunters. As the ice retreated north, humans
    gained evolutionary advantage, because their bodies could survive on plants and did not need as much
    meat. As humans became more numerous, finding animals to hunt became harder, so neanderthals slowly were
    running out of food. There is proof of interbreeding with humans thou, ~3%.
    Not exactly. Neanderthals faded slowly away about 25,000 years ago, actually at the time of Glaciar Maximum. When ice age ended about 12,000 years ago, they were gone, for good 15,000 years.
    I think the biggest advantage of Cro Magnons was cooperation and higher spirituality. We can see same motives and art-forms through out all Europe in human settlements, unlike Neanderthals. Plus Cro Magnons had better tools and bigger populations to finally quizzes poor champs out.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Νο
    wolfs and dogs, horses and donkeys can mate but they give a mule, a non reproductine son, so their mate stops at 1rst generation,
    but a St Bernard dog can mate with a smal mexican ciauaua although they are diffrent and give a son that can mate and reproduct,

    that is why wolf is not dog, and oposite,
    2 species than can't reproduct, like horse and donkey, like wolf and dog, they give 1 generation but a mule, so reproduction stops there,
    that is the main rule on lower scale of species,

    and that is why I ask, a big Afganistan hunting dog is not like a small white ball that girls have, yet they mate so they are different but they are same species,
    on the other hand a wolf with an alsatian wolf-dog look but can they give more than 1 generation?, so although they look like each other they are not species,

    that is the point,
    if homo Sapiens carries Neanterdal genes, then Neanterdal was Homo also, different but Homo,
    like today an African black with a North blond are different in colours but shame species,
    but if Neanterdal and Sapiens have same genes that does not mean that they mate, but they developed in time the genes that took from the common ancestor,

    so at least for me that is what we first define,

    I don't think that alien do genetical expirements in Human-zoo at prehistory times so they make Sapiens from neanterdal and their own genes.
    Breeding experiments in Germany with poodles and wolves, and later on with the resulting wolfdogs showed unrestricted fertility, mating via free choice and no significant problems of communication (even after a few generations). The offspring of poodles with either coyotes and jackals however all showed a decrease in fertility, significant communication problems as well as an increase of genetic diseases after three generations of interbreeding between the hybrids. The researchers therefore concluded that domestic dogs and wolves are the same species.

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    Yetos, have you read the link? Ligers can reproduce...

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    Sparkey, I just carefully re-read your post and it makes total sense. The person that would most upset if "I" proved to be Neanderthal would be Wells himself, considering his claim to fame is that the world population recently popped "out of Africa". (When I say recently I mean within the last 100,000 years.) Wells should address his problem with "I" in print or even better front of an audience.
    I just read a blurp from the New York Times (from back in 2010 or 2011) claiming the Neanderthal bones may have been contaminanted with modern DNA--I don't see a reason why politically correct forces would want to get involved in the Neanderthal debate. Sarcasm off.

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    Here is the article...New York Times May 6, 2010 Signs of Neanderthals Mating with Humans Of interest here is this quote "In an earlier report on Neanderthal genome, the reported DNA sequences were found by other geneticists to be extensively contaminanted with human DNA. Dr. Paabo's group has taken extra precautions but it remains to be seen how successful the have been Dr. Klein said..." Hmmm Dr. Klein is a paleontologist at Stanford, at least at the time this article was written. Who else has ties to Stanford? Oh yeah, Mr. Spencer Wells. Klein appears to be throwing sand on Paabo's work throughout the article. I guess I was really onto something with my recent haplogroup bias posts. The plot thickens...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Νο
    wolfs and dogs, horses and donkeys can mate but they give a mule, a non reproductine son, so their mate stops at 1rst generation,
    but a St Bernard dog can mate with a smal mexican ciauaua although they are diffrent and give a son that can mate and reproduct,

    that is why wolf is not dog, and oposite,
    2 species than can't reproduct, like horse and donkey, like wolf and dog, they give 1 generation but a mule, so reproduction stops there,
    that is the main rule on lower scale of species,

    and that is why I ask, a big Afganistan hunting dog is not like a small white ball that girls have, yet they mate so they are different but they are same species,
    on the other hand a wolf with an alsatian wolf-dog look but can they give more than 1 generation?, so although they look like each other they are not species,

    that is the point,
    if homo Sapiens carries Neanterdal genes, then Neanterdal was Homo also, different but Homo,
    like today an African black with a North blond are different in colours but shame species,
    but if Neanterdal and Sapiens have same genes that does not mean that they mate, but they developed in time the genes that took from the common ancestor,

    so at least for me that is what we first define,

    I don't think that alien do genetical expirements in Human-zoo at prehistory times so they make Sapiens from neanterdal and their own genes.
    I thought and it seams I thought well, that wolves and dogs are the same specie: they can mate one together and give birth to fertile descendants, as can do with them dingos and golden chakals, if I believe what I red newly: in nature we found crossed descendants of these "races" (not "species") and they had and have offsprings...

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    sorry elghund, I had not red the second page, so I spoke here above as a 'perroquet' - beg your pardon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    Yetos, I'm glad I was drinking anything when I scrolled down to your photo, I got quite a chuckle out of that one.
    Did anyone appreciate my Mythbusters reference...does that show air in Europe?
    And back to the original thread...has anyone tested my favorite boxer Nikolay Valuev for y-DNA?
    I am too old to watch mythbusters,
    but I like the way they think, so I let my kids watching it,
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    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
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    and again I say this

    DIFFERENT SPECIES CAN NOT REPRODUCE,

    what I mean is this

    That is a Neanterdal for example




    that is modern Human




    Do they look like each other?

    at least 2 humans look like each other,

    they are fertile so they are species,

    the difference is that chihuahua and st bernard are same specie but different races,

    a doctor when exams and keeps reports say Caucasian African Afro-American ( is that specie or race?)

    if 2 animals mate and give fertile they are race,
    although taxonomy of kinds sometimes is inderesting to discover new species and races than to be rewritten,

    that means that wolf and dog are the same specie but different race,

    so if Neanterdal could mate with Human then it was not another specie, but another race

    CANIS LUPUS is the specie, now either you prefer it as sub-specie. either you prefer it as race , as ειδος it is the same,

    Yes I read the articles about linger and wolfs and dogs

    So we are talking about the case of Nenterdal and Sapiens are sub-species of the same specie?
    Meaning that among us are Hybridic people with Neanterdal and Sapiens?

    considering that Alan Simons from Nevada say that 60 000 years before homo Neantrdalis inhabit Cyprus , then we speak about a seafaring, very smart homo,

    According Oxford UK radio-chronology no Neanterdal existed after 40 ky from today,
    so they dissapear earlier, probably before Humans enter Europe,

    the case of Gibraltar Neanterdals is not a good case for them (αβοωε ραδιο-chronologists) cause it might been infected-poluted with later organical material.

    According το Leipzig anthropologists a specie with name Denisovan Hominins is most possible to meet modern paleolithic Humans.

    the case of Denisovan be the mix of Neanterdal with Sapiens?

    sory can help answering,

    but if Neanterdal was specie with Sapiens and Denisovan then Denisovan should also pass in modern genes.

    Besides if Molodoban-Ucraine is correct then Neantardal knew to build houses from Mammoth bones and knew how to extract skin to cever the roof of the house,

    He build houses 44 000 before,

    to conclude,

    Nordic warrior i read something about Stanford, it seems P/P say that 1 autosomal of modern Humans is from Homo Sapiens Denisovan, and 1 from Neanterdalis?

    I read about 4% Neanterdalis and 6% Denisovan but does seems to clarify (where I read) if that 4% is included in the 6% of the Denisovan

    I wonder which autosomal?

    WELL IF MODERN HUMAN HAS 4% NEANTERDAL
    THAT MEANS THAT MODERN NEANTERDAL HAS 96% HOMO Sapiens sapiens?
    Last edited by Yetos; 02-12-12 at 03:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    "small white ball that girls have"=comedy gold

    Kardu, great to find out the Valuev line is getting tested... I thinking "I1" or possible "N". Let's hope the boxing giant himself consents to the swab.
    I mean this


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    Are lions and tigers same species?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Are lions and tigers same species?
    Well if Liger is fertile and can reproduce it shelf why not?

    yet althoug I don't know if the case of Zoo reproduction was thought by those who made the taxonomy.

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    I never really believed that humans bred with neanderthals, though I guess it could explain the robustness and height of most paleolithic European descendants. Cro-Magnons are descendants of West Asians migrants, yet they became much taller than their cousins. Which is odd since adaptation to the cold usually involves a decrease in height (a clear example of that being Mongoloids). Maybe the neanderthal DNA gave the Cro-Magnons "hybrid vigour" as nordicwarrior suggested. It would definitely explain a lot of things.

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    The Mamuthones may be worth bringing up on this Neanderthal y-DNA thread. Youtube has a few videos that are quite entertaining concerning the Mamuthone's annual march through town. It may be fun to "guess the haplogroup" after watching the two different cast of characters involved in the parade. Keep in mind these festivals are over 2,000 years old, and they also take place in prime "I" territory. At one point in the ceremony, the more "refined" group feeds the "brutes" in a room out of view from the public (well at least they did until the 1950's--not sure about now) maybe to keep happy and less likely to turn on the boss?

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    Templar, I really think we are a fusion of Neanderthal/homosapien. This combo is what make us great, through hybrid vigor theory. Soon after the mixing started, we saw the development of civilization. I embrace my inner-Neanderthal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    Templar, I really think we are a fusion of Neanderthal/homosapien. This combo is what make us great, through hybrid vigor theory. Soon after the mixing started, we saw the development of civilization. I embrace my inner-Neanderthal.
    Hm, but the problem with that is that civilization started mostly in places which didn't have haplorgroup I people/Cro-Magnons (China, Indus river valley civilization, Incas, etc). Although there is new evidence that the oldest civilization may have been in Europe but I don't know much about that. Supposedly the Lepenski Vir archeological site is over 9000 years old. Which would make it predate Mesopotamian civilization.

    By the way, did you get the messages that I sent to your inbox?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    The Mamuthones may be worth bringing up on this Neanderthal y-DNA thread. Youtube has a few videos that are quite entertaining concerning the Mamuthone's annual march through town. It may be fun to "guess the haplogroup" after watching the two different cast of characters involved in the parade. Keep in mind these festivals are over 2,000 years old, and they also take place in prime "I" territory. At one point in the ceremony, the more "refined" group feeds the "brutes" in a room out of view from the public (well at least they did until the 1950's--not sure about now) maybe to keep happy and less likely to turn on the boss?
    that custom is considered Celtic to some, Balkanic (Greco-Thracian to others)
    it exists from Europe to India, even Kallasha have it,
    in Makedonia is trade mark of winter, and is older than 2000 years,
    the ancient get married in January (Γαμηλιων)

    but I don't think that has something to do,
    it is a dedication to God Komos (Comedy) in some greek is called momos
    Although the aromani name is Rugatzari either from Latin rue= street, (or Ragnarok cause it happens the days that Christians celebrate the Light that was shown when Jesus was baptised)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_twl5oG2nE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Hm, but the problem with that is that civilization started mostly in places which didn't have haplorgroup I people/Cro-Magnons (China, Indus river valley civilization, Incas, etc). Although there is new evidence that the oldest civilization may have been in Europe but I don't know much about that. Supposedly the Lepenski Vir archeological site is over 9000 years old. Which would make it predate Mesopotamian civilization.

    By the way, did you get the messages that I sent to your inbox?
    The Varna Necropolis brings new dimensions in History,

    It seems like enter Steppe and Egypt before we already know, and even creted-affected intermediate knigdom,
    and I bet it was I and J except G

    the burial rituals and body position of tomb 47 brings revolutionary theories,
    the most important is that Patriarchical families started in Europe

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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    The Varna Necropolis brings new dimensions in History,

    It seems like enter Steppe and Egypt before we already know, and even creted-affected intermediate knigdom,
    and I bet it was I and J except G

    the burial rituals and body position of tomb 47 brings revolutionary theories,
    the most important is that Patriarchical families started in Europe
    I'm interestsd in this thread and cautious at the same time: a red here arguments I didn't understood to well:
    concerning specie, I prefer the definition: group of races that can breed one together: ir's clear at least, so true dogs and wolves are in the same specie -
    for neantderthal and modern humans I don't know and I wait more knowledge (because common genes can trace back to pre-forking times...)
    some personal remarks:
    it's not safe speaking With the same exact terms about 40000 years ago 'cro-magnons' and 9000 years ago mesolithical people showing some remote link with 'cro-magnon' -
    I have no big confidence in surveys that mix true 'cro-magnon' types with 'brünnoid' or 'capelloid' types more than 20000 yeats oynuger (in Europe at least), showing only OPPOSITE features to the 'cromagnon' type's ones -
    to often is confused the periods or cultures stages with the phenotypes present at these dates: and it puts people to affirm odd things...

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    I have no big confidence in surveys that mix true 'cro-magnon' types with 'brünnoid' or 'capelloid' types more than 20000 yeats oynuger (in Europe at least), showing only OPPOSITE features to the 'cromagnon' type's ones -
    to often is confused the periods or cultures stages with the phenotypes present at these dates: and it puts people to affirm odd things...
    The same people could just have changed over time. It doesn't change their overall genetic makeup, it is mostly just their physical appearance that changes. Changes in diet can significantly affect a population's bone structure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I'm interestsd in this thread and cautious at the same time: a red here arguments I didn't understood to well:
    concerning specie, I prefer the definition: group of races that can breed one together: ir's clear at least, so true dogs and wolves are in the same specie -
    for neantderthal and modern humans I don't know and I wait more knowledge (because common genes can trace back to pre-forking times...)
    some personal remarks:
    it's not safe speaking With the same exact terms about 40000 years ago 'cro-magnons' and 9000 years ago mesolithical people showing some remote link with 'cro-magnon' -
    I have no big confidence in surveys that mix true 'cro-magnon' types with 'brünnoid' or 'capelloid' types more than 20000 yeats oynuger (in Europe at least), showing only OPPOSITE features to the 'cromagnon' type's ones -
    to often is confused the periods or cultures stages with the phenotypes present at these dates: and it puts people to affirm odd things...
    All I wanted to say is that Europe is older than we believe,
    and maybe ( I am cartain) that affected mesopotamia and Egypt much before we believe.
    that has nothing to do with Cro - magnons etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    All I wanted to say is that Europe is older than we believe,
    and maybe ( I am cartain) that affected mesopotamia and Egypt much before we believe.
    that has nothing to do with Cro - magnons etc
    What are you suggesting?

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    And again my question is this,

    4% that is considered Neanterdal in modern humans pass is Included in the 6% of Denisovans?

    if Oxford radio-chronologists are right, then Humans meet Denisovans and not Neanterdals.
    so Human has 6% Denisovan + 4 % Neanterdal = 10% = 2 autosomal?
    or 1 autosomal 6 % Desinovan in which the 4% Neanterdal is included?

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