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Thread: Neanderthal y-DNA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    The case of Montenegro relatively common (not dominant!) types with some 'borreby' influence cannot be extended to the whole Dinaric Alps! and COON believed (I leave him this opinion) that the Dinaric Alps had been populated by tribes from S-Germany or surrounding areas, at recent period...
    "When reduced Upper Paleolithic survivors and Mediterraneans mix, then occurs the process of dinarization, which produces a hybrid with non-intermediate features."

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Varna necropolis tomp 47 is a man >1.80 tall. estimate radio-carbon 6700 from today,
    surely before arsenic bronce era, but after Neolithic entrance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    "When reduced Upper Paleolithic survivors and Mediterraneans mix, then occurs the process of dinarization, which produces a hybrid with non-intermediate features."
    Thanks: I don't know where it came from but I trust it -
    Coon here speaks apparently of "reduced" U.P. survivors and I could argue he spoke in other parts of "unreduced" survivors (maybe I red badly?) - in other articles he wrote that a brachycephalic element was needed to produce "dinarization", along with his very variated "mediterraneans"...
    the problem with Coon is that is put in the same bag all what he considered as the remnants of U.P.s in some of his articles, while he was able to separate them clearly in others-
    His idea about a "dinarization" process has the merit to be new enough at his time - but nobody has never proved it with evidence; I accept nevertheless the possibility of a specific local evolution based upon a crossing followed by selection, other scholars thought that a central Europe mesolithical group of 'brünn' or close same phylum was the basis or one of the basis of this late enough phenomenum - BUT the occidental crossings with brachycephals with some 'cromagnoid' basis and other types, dolichocephalic, never produced a "dinarization"; so Coon's explanations have to be completed...
    to come back at the thread, here you have my opinion: The supposed ancient element in 'dinaric'
    cristallization is NOT Upper Paleolithic for me, or U.P. but outside Europe; sure their ancestors was paleolithical AS OUR ALL ANCESTORS, but they were not "our" european paleolithical people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Varna necropolis tomp 47 is a man >1.80 tall. estimate radio-carbon 6700 from today,
    surely before arsenic bronce era, but after Neolithic entrance.
    OK, I don't know what is your meaning with this data - but in a lot of male elite tombs in warlike tribes you are sure to find some high statured leaders (sometimes, even, big noble women) - and ONE case is not a statistic - No offense, surely are you aware of that -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Thanks: I don't know where it came from but I trust it -
    Coon here speaks apparently of "reduced" U.P. survivors and I could argue he spoke in other parts of "unreduced" survivors (maybe I red badly?) - in other articles he wrote that a brachycephalic element was needed to produce "dinarization", along with his very variated "mediterraneans"...
    the problem with Coon is that is put in the same bag all what he considered as the remnants of U.P.s in some of his articles, while he was able to separate them clearly in others-
    His idea about a "dinarization" process has the merit to be new enough at his time - but nobody has never proved it with evidence; I accept nevertheless the possibility of a specific local evolution based upon a crossing followed by selection, other scholars thought that a central Europe mesolithical group of 'brünn' or close same phylum was the basis or one of the basis of this late enough phenomenum - BUT the occidental crossings with brachycephals with some 'cromagnoid' basis and other types, dolichocephalic, never produced a "dinarization"; so Coon's explanations have to be completed...
    to come back at the thread, here you have my opinion: The supposed ancient element in 'dinaric'
    cristallization is NOT Upper Paleolithic for me, or U.P. but outside Europe; sure their ancestors was paleolithical AS OUR ALL ANCESTORS, but they were not "our" european paleolithical people.
    Yet, Herzegovina has the highest percentage of Haplogroup I in all of Europe. The people are known for their tallness and robustness. There are also plenty of paleolithic caves in the region.

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    Soon the first results of the BEAN project will be available so we will learn lot new about prehistoric Balkans and Anatolia..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Soon the first results of the BEAN project will be available so we will learn lot new about prehistoric Balkans and Anatolia..
    I can't wait for it. It will either make or break my theories haha. I hope I am right, if it confirms what I think then all the old biased anthropological imperialist "bull" will be permanently discredited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    I can't wait for it. It will either make or break my theories haha. I hope I am right, if it confirms what I think then all the old biased anthropological imperialist "bull" will be permanently discredited.
    Or give them some new fascinating twist :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Yet, Herzegovina has the highest percentage of Haplogroup I in all of Europe. The people are known for their tallness and robustness. There are also plenty of paleolithic caves in the region.
    Dinaric is probably not paleolithic but native to the near east or egypt. Yet other cro-magnon related types are frequent in the Balkans, mostly alpinoids. In Serbia and western Bulgaria (the only Balkan countries I visited) I've seen the most broad faced peoples ever and Borrebies seem to be actually frequent not only in Montenegro. But unaltered long headed cro-magnon types are rare in general, in particular in the balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Dinaric is probably not paleolithic but native to the near east or egypt. Yet other cro-magnon related types are frequent in the Balkans, mostly alpinoids. In Serbia and western Bulgaria (the only Balkan countries I visited) I've seen the most broad faced peoples ever and Borrebies seem to be actually frequent not only in Montenegro. But unaltered long headed cro-magnon types are rare in general, in particular in the balkans.
    Yeah "Borrebies" are common, but Dinarics are thought to be a mix between Borrebies and Mediterraneans. So even they have a lot of paleolithic ancestry. Dinarics are as Cro-Magnon as Nordics are, if not more. They tend to be stronger built, and have broader features.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    OK, I don't know what is your meaning with this data - but in a lot of male elite tombs in warlike tribes you are sure to find some high statured leaders (sometimes, even, big noble women) - and ONE case is not a statistic - No offense, surely are you aware of that -
    yes but seems all male population there are 1,70-1,82. which is a liitle higher than the 1,67 average we know.

    you are right, that more searches must be done there. but the average height could either local either a mix of tall 'dinaroid' with shorter?

    stupid question? or shows an entrance of taller to east and lower Balkans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    yes but seems all male population there are 1,70-1,82. which is a liitle higher than the 1,67 average we know.

    you are right, that more searches must be done there. but the average height could either local either a mix of tall 'dinaroid' with shorter?

    stupid question? or shows an entrance of taller to east and lower Balkans?
    Yetos do you think it is possible that the Dorians invaded Greece from the Dinaric Alps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    The advantage went to homosapien because of:

    1. Plant based diet
    Please, show us any article stating that Netherlands didn't eat plant base foods. I always thought that both were hunter-gatherers, and gatherers implies plant eaters. On top of this Sapiens coming from Africa were not able to find same varieties of plants and fruit they, and their digestive system, was used to. Even if they ate more plant food they needed to adapt to local kinds. Mind that they both lived in Europe under glacial ice belt and eatable greens were, lets say, scarce. One might assume that they actually could pick up "gastro-mutations" from Neanderthals for local flora, to be able to digest local greens. Comparable might be European mutation for lactose persistence gene, that is completely missing in Asia, leaving them only with soya "milk". This gene is readily available in people of European decent, upon mating with them. :) Milk anyone....




    2. Warming climate
    3. Sheer numbers--Neanderthal functioned in smaller sized units tailored to function in a colder environment

    And LeBrok regarding your quote, "...the size didn't matter much, as it was dropped..." SIZE ALWAYS MATTERS. (Capital letters to enhance weak comic effect) Larger frames were not dropped entirely--to this day some populations hold on to this size advantage more so than others.
    Let me remind you and others again, that demise of Neanderthals happened in Last Glacial Maximum, 27 to 20 kya, when it was the coldest in Europe. According to your hypothesis they should have had a clear advantage over African Sapiens at that time.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum




    And regarding drive. Drive may be the most important Neanderthal contribution of all. The drive I refer to is shaped or formed by dealing with an utter lack of warmth. Old Man Winter has a way of telling you what's important. In the North, you have drive or you die. Quickly. And like size, some populations hold on to their drive advantage more so than others.
    Please, the drive again? Read above. What drive, when they were gone when Europe was the coldest?! Even if the drive, you referring to, is a Good Planing for winter, like collecting vital supplies, then it wasn't there. Again, they were gone when it was the coldest. No drive, no planing, boobkas.

    On a positive note, I do perceive Europeans to be least emotional and least spiritual/superstitious people on this planet. This could be Neanderthal doing after all. The Neanderthal in us. Perhaps this allowed the reason to come to the surface more than not, giving Europeans some edge, at least in some better periods of our history. ;)
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Yetos do you think it is possible that the Dorians invaded Greece from the Dinaric Alps?
    Templar no,
    the historical descend is checked well, Dorians are thettalians, you can name it as the return of Temenides.


    Theoritically the only connection, if there is, with Dinaric Alps is The Vucocar -Baden cultures (Vucovar-Vatin) connection of Myceneans with arsenic bronze steppe invaders, around 2500-3500 BC.

    I think we must wait the searches, especially Varna,

    Dienekes somewhere mentions about an entrance of long head people, at limited area for a period,
    maybe you are looking for that?

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    And why do we exclude victory in warfare? Better organized and better armed sapiens would gradually exterminate neanderthals despite their superior brute force.
    Maybe the legends about fighting with ogres around the globe reflects this episode in our collective memory :)

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    Dienekes somewhere mentions about an entrance of long head people, at limited area for a period,
    maybe you are looking for that?
    Well I have heard that the Dorians were much taller than other Greeks. This could suggest higher paleolithic descent. Although it could have just been due to better nutrition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Well I have heard that the Dorians were much taller than other Greeks. This could suggest higher paleolithic descent. Although it could have just been due to better nutrition.
    Not exactly,

    the tallest among Greeks were Lokri people, Lokri are considered relatives of Dorians and Aeolians,
    Makedonians are mention as Tallest, But Makedonians were Argeians and Lokri,
    Makedonians also consider Aeolians and Dorians.
    excluding Athens and Salonica even today the tallest are in upper Makedonia, Upper Thessaly and East Epirus to Lokris area.

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    I thought I was a genius by linking Solutreans with Haplogroup X2 in North America. I guess I'm not the first. I just watched Dr. Dennis Stanford's video (Solutreans: First Americans... on youtube) where he explains his theory in depth. It's almost the exact same conclusion I had!

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    LeBrok, "According to your hypothesis they [Neanderthals] should have had a clear advantage over African sapiens at that time." Actually, I'm thinking even when Neanderthal were at their collective peak, they still didn't have a high population. They were spread far apart and hunted in smaller clans than homosapien. It's just how they were wired, probably to deal with the colder climates.

    And it is important to remember the positive aspects of the Neanderthal/Homosapien mixing...it got both groups out of caves! Eventually I mean. Which is good because I'm rather partial to central heat and air. Also on the European situation the "I" and "R" mixing also worked out pretty well. I mean these two groups were largely responsible for building and running the Western World. So we have that going for us.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    LeBrok, "According to your hypothesis they [Neanderthals] should have had a clear advantage over African sapiens at that time." Actually, I'm thinking even when Neanderthal were at their collective peak, they still didn't have a high population. They were spread far apart and hunted in smaller clans than homosapien. It's just how they were wired, probably to deal with the colder climates.

    And it is important to remember the positive aspects of the Neanderthal/Homosapien mixing...it got both groups out of caves! Eventually I mean. Which is good because I'm rather partial to central heat and air. Also on the European situation the "I" and "R" mixing also worked out pretty well. I mean these two groups were largely responsible for building and running the Western World. So we have that going for us.
    Sorry, but what you're doing here is, and I really mean no offense here, quite a bit crazy. Why? Because you're mixing apples with pears with grapes with pinapples - in other words, mixing up a lot of different concepts and a lot of different events and different time frames here. First off, the original intermixing between Homo sapiens and the Neanderthals didn't happen when the modern Homo sapiens first came to Europe, but around the time when H.sapiens originally left Africa. This means that Australian Aboriginals, East Asians and Native Americans have as much Neanderthal admixture in them as Europeans. The claim that the mixing "got humanity out of the caves" is certainly false since mixing took place several ten thousand years before the Neolithic revolution. It's still around 15,000 years after the extinction of the Neanderthals. Even if the first the H.sapiens that came to Europe intermixed to some greater degree with Neanderthals than elsewhere, it's likely that if this had happened it would not show up to the degree one might expect it considering that Europe's paleolithic lineages had to survive the upheavals of both the Neolithic and the Bronze Age (the history and distribution of Haplogroup I and it's subclades is certainly telling here, although at the same time it may create a somewhat false image considering that maternal lineages for instance fared much better). Also, agriculture arose more (or less) independently in the Near East, Egypt, India and China, and it certainly arose indepedently in the Americas. All this occured many millennia after H.neanderthaliensis was gone, and in climate zones never or only marginally inhabited by H.neanderthaliensis (this is also one of several reasons why I think the "cold adaptation" argument is moot point).

    And well, if you want to draw a straight line from Homo neanderthaliensis to the emergence of the western world, I can assure you that the likelihood that you're false is 100%.

    Besides this, I would like to ask that why you keep being focused so much on Y-DNA? While it is sadly the truth that history was largely written by men, this doesn't automatically mean that whatever made these men significant historic figures was solely depended on their Y-chromosome, let alone their Y-chromosome haplogroup.

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    Besides this, I would like to ask that why you keep being focused so much on Y-DNA? While it is sadly the truth that history was largely written by men, this doesn't automatically mean that whatever made these men significant historic figures was solely depended on their Y-chromosome, let alone their Y-chromosome haplogroup.
    Keep in mind that our Y-haplogroup is what makes us men. Therefore a lot of very important behavioral coding is present with in it. Y haplogroup variation is also variation between various types of masculine behavior.

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    Taranis, I really mean no offense here either, but you sound a bit...cranky. Re-read the entire thread and it may make more sense why I brought several timelines. I can assure you that I don't need a history lesson when it comes to this subject. And Templar is spot on: y-dna carries important behavioral coding.

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    reply

    And yes Taranis, I've been guilty of "crowing about my haplogroup" on this thread and the one before, but only because I have noticed that "I" hasn't been treated fairly. Spencer Wells being an R1b, such as yourself, has indulged in what may be one of humanity's oldest traits, putting ego ahead of truth. The main flaw regarding his haplogroup theory lies in the structure of the haplogroup tree itself. Is it just coincidence that "R" is almost at the top? I'm sure there are a few million highly intelligent East Asians that may disagree with "R" coming after "O". Or what about the much "younger" groups such as the Polynesians or South American Indians? They have more recent mutations. Mr. Wells' odd claim that haplogroup R were the First Europeans is only one of several issues I have with my fellow American.
    But this is supposed to be about science right? You do have to break a few eggs to make an omlette. I guess the key is for all of us to put aside the natural tendency to "hype dad's haplogroup" and to pay attention to the facts. Another roadblock to the truth can be political correctness. I can assure you thatt I have other more controversial ideas regarding y-haplogroup, but in polite society sometimes it's best to bite one's tongue. At what point do science and politeness have to part ways?

  24. #99
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    And one last point Taranis, my paragraph about us getting out of caves was not meant to be taken literally. It was tongue in cheek. But that is my fault because this is a European based site and many of you are communicating in your second or third languages. I guess I need to watch that. Just so you know Taranis your English is WAY better than my German.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Yet, Herzegovina has the highest percentage of Haplogroup I in all of Europe. The people are known for their tallness and robustness. There are also plenty of paleolithic caves in the region.
    I'm sorry because I keep on speaking about phenotypes on this thread that is concerned by other aspects, but I disagree that Herzegovina people are specially robust: tall, yes, robust, not very much, I think.
    on an other side, I would be glad to know what are your sources for a paleolithic remnants richness for Herzegovina, because I thought it was poor concerning this ancient period? Maybe have you some link or reference of new surveys? Thank beforehand; It 's true that the link between Y-I HG, Neanderthal and ancestors of present day majority of Herzegovina people is not too strictly a geographical one: people moved, more than a time, and far!
    for the Y-haplo, nevertheless, I suppose that if ALL the scientists have not mistaken themselves, I, a downstream HG, cannot be linked to Neanderthal, whatever his physical aspect or is cultural level.
    good evening

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