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Thread: When did baltic and slavic split ?

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    When did baltic and slavic split ?

    I am unsure on tis, while some people say that baltic and slavic were still together around the turn of the eras. others say they split much earlier.
    this map shows baltic and slavic being coloured in the same colour and its from 500 AD.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...f/IE1500BP.png

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    Nobody really knows, the poor champs didn't leave any written records. :)

    If Baltic language is a combination of proto-slavic mixed (or vice versa) with local substratum (different local Baltic language) than language can evolve much faster, and split might have happened much later, even around year 0.

    If Baltic and Slavic evolved from common Balto-Slavic language, and they slowly drifted away without much contact, and didn't mix with any other locals, then it would take much longer to differentiate to current forms. In this case the split might have happened around 2,000 BCE. Perhaps some foundations were laid during Corded Ware expansion.

    But in real life it is hard for a tribe or language to be secluded for so long, 4k years, therefore I would compromise the date of the split at around 1,000 BC.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    baltic seems to be quite a primtive language, with many proto indo european features. so i think that slavic might is just a derived form with it. also regions which are slavic today, were once baltic. they got assimilated by slavs or germans (original prussians).
    also heard that once slavs and balts were about of the same numbers, balts even lived around Moscow, while the slavs expanded and assimilated them, the balts rather stayed backwards and pagan, and today are reduced to lithuania and latvia.

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    First off, LeBrok is right: we don't know for certain because we have no written sources. I wouldn't pinpoint to a specific date, but in my opinion Balto-Slavic did have linguistic unity until (at least?) well into the bronze age, perhaps even into the early iron age. There's a common (uniquely Balto-Slavic) metallurgical vocabulary for words like 'tin' and 'iron', which is also subject to respective Baltic and Slavic sound laws (such as merger of PIE *a and *o which occured independently in Baltic and Slavic, as it was realized differently, or the palatalizations in Slavic).

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    There has never been a natural split, because at least the slavic languages are all daughters of Old Church Slavonic language or differently known as Old Bulgarian. There was not any vernacular slavic language prior to OCS, which obviously was a vehicular language.

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    From Byzantines we know that slavic was the language of Great Moravia, and not Baltic area language,
    that make some connect Slavic with Wends,
    Other connect them with Sclavini,

    from Historical facts we know that only a scytho-sarmatian entrance in central Europe could bring Slavic to south of Danube,
    and concerning that Scythians had already enter Thrace from ancient times I believe that scytho-sarmatian difference is the same with Balto-slavic,
    yet we know also that some Avar Turkic Ogur Finno_uralic population enter also, and that modern forms are based in the gathering of Cyrill and Method who created an official stability form of Great Moravia Slavic dialect.
    I mean that Slavic Lingua Franca is the dialect of Great Moravia and in that basis older scytho-sarmatians re-arrange and follow their own paths.

    Lebrok I Think is almost as old as you say, before Herodotus, and much younger, after the Varrangian-Viking entrance in Ucraine,
    I think it started as scytho-sarmatian, and ended after the Uralic and Hunic and Viking invasion in central Europe and Ucraine to a Baltic and Slavic branch. disapearing Thracian as a linguistic unity but leaving remnants in the modern Balkanic languages,

    Some modern linguists in Bulgaria also try to connect Slavic as a Scytho-Thracian or a Balto-Thracian language,
    but until now I doubt about that, although seems that Slavic replace Thracian from Dinaric Alps to Samara areas were Herodotus say that Thracian were spoken.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    so you think that thracian, baltic and slavic are all closely relate ? I think this could be true, especially dacian shows resemblances to baltic languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    There has never been a natural split, because at least the slavic languages are all daughters of Old Church Slavonic language or differently known as Old Bulgarian. There was not any vernacular slavic language prior to OCS, which obviously was a vehicular language.
    "daughters"? Maybe - but is old church slavonic a synthetic language forged by some hysteric othodox monks upon nothing at all???
    german written languages was forged upon a curious and not too logical mix or central and southern chancelleries of Germany about the XV° century, but its sources are older than this time, nevertheless, very older indeed - so slavic languages have ancient enough roots - some archeologists (I know, stones don't speak) think the lands North of the Battle Axes Cultures of the Steppes, say between them and Baltic, was yet shared between Balts and Slavs since the XIX° century BC...Slavs was supposed to have settled the lands between future E-Lausitz Culture and Dniepr Culture -

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    all that would be a bit before Scythians and Sarmatians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert22 View Post
    so you think that thracian, baltic and slavic are all closely relate ? I think this could be true, especially dacian shows resemblances to baltic languages.
    That is what i say, some modern 'push that way', although Thracian show also connection with Armenian Anatolian etc, and that is what I doubt, Scythians enter Thracian land in Romania before medieval Slavic speakers and that resemblances could be scythian and not Thracian,

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    There has never been a natural split, because at least the slavic languages are all daughters of Old Church Slavonic language or differently known as Old Bulgarian. There was not any vernacular slavic language prior to OCS, which obviously was a vehicular language.
    How do you explain Polish language being Slavic then? It had no connection to OCS. Poland was basically pagan till beginnings of second millennium and went straight into hands of Catholic Church with official language being Latin. And yet people spoke Slavic since the beginning, with no records indicating otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    There has never been a natural split, because at least the slavic languages are all daughters of Old Church Slavonic language or differently known as Old Bulgarian. There was not any vernacular slavic language prior to OCS, which obviously was a vehicular language.
    You have a point that,

    But when did it Heppened? at 6th cantury Ad or at 1700 AD? wich calendar we must use?
    Anatoli Flamenko or Julian?

    So church again strikes,
    After Latin and Greek which are Clergy language, Now Slavic is clergy language,

    the Truth is until a point yes,

    I will make a comparison with Germanic,

    Germanic were Spoken from Bastarnae to Saxons and from Visigoths up to Norge,
    Germanic language is not 'made in Berlin' language, but a family of languages,
    only in Deutschland how many dialects we have? and how many states?
    that could give each state to have its own dialect-language,
    But the reformation that started from Luther start giving a written speech, and when writen speech is done then starts a reformation and a more preservative language,
    until Goete and Hanover literature, Deutsch would split more and more to dialects, but that was hold,

    Same is with OCS, only stronger,
    Cyril and Method gather syntax grammar and vocabulary mainly from Great Moravia, not Bulgaria, Bulgaria is the less Slavic language and population. and reconstruct, or just construct a language from a dialect that was the lighthouse of Slavic reformation and not only,
    OCS is not an artificial language like Esperando, but a language spoken by some, that help reform All Slavic and para-Slavic languages to a comon quide-ruler,
    I mean that later education uses Great Moravian dialect as primary ruler,
    same in Germany they use Goethe as ruler, etc

    understand that, A priest if speaks in another language nobody listen to him, so no work is done,
    only when a priest the language of people, can have a result, that is religious book were translated,

    besides one of the first religious tests in Albanian language is a liturgy, a Clergy text,
    would that means that Albanian is a clergy language?

    It is commonly held that Albanian must have been written at least since the 12th century as many facts would indicate.[25] A 1332 document written in Latin by a monk, variously identified as either Guillaume Adam (Archbishop of Antivari in the Principality of Serbia from 1324 to 1341), or Brocardus Monacus (Frère Brochard), testifies to the existence of written Albanian prior to the earliest records so far discovered.[26]

    he "Formula e pagëzimit" (baptismal formula), which dates back to 1462 and was authored by Pal Engjëlli (or Paulus Angelus) (ca. 1417–1470), Archbishop of Durrës. Engjëlli was a close friend and counselor of Skanderbeg.[27] It was written in a pastoral letter for a synod at the Holy Trinity in Mat and read in Latin characters as follows, Unte paghesont premenit Atit et birit et spertit senit ("I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost"). It was discovered and published in 1915 by Nicolae Iorga.[28]



    Watch the above, if I follow your Logic then
    Albanian is a Clergy language also, created by monks
    and to use your vocabulary a Vehicular language.

    So by following your way of Thinking,
    in post about proto-Greek you say Greek naver existed but invented by church
    Latin is also a clergy language,
    now Slavic is a Church language,
    by what we see Albanian is also a clergy language,
    the only one left are the Germanic in Europe and Fino-Ugric languages,
    are they connected with church also?

    which language is not a clergy language?
    Last edited by Yetos; 04-12-12 at 18:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert22 View Post
    baltic seems to be quite a primtive language, with many proto indo european features. so i think that slavic might is just a derived form with it. also regions which are slavic today, were once baltic. they got assimilated by slavs or germans (original prussians).
    also heard that once slavs and balts were about of the same numbers, balts even lived around Moscow, while the slavs expanded and assimilated them, the balts rather stayed backwards and pagan, and today are reduced to lithuania and latvia.
    Original Prussians were actually exterminated...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    How do you explain Polish language being Slavic then? It had no connection to OCS. Poland was basically pagan till beginnings of second millennium and went straight into hands of Catholic Church with official language being Latin. And yet people spoke Slavic since the beginning, with no records indicating otherwise.
    That's a very good question. My only explanation to this is that their rulers might have been originally from the Slavic Church, and this might have happened during a 'history piece' that we are missing in the Poland history. If this is true this obviously happened prior to the 'conjunction' to the Catholic Church, for a short period of time, but long enough to transmit the language to the educated people which apparently was never lost, after the theocrats of Poland joined the Catholic Church.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    That's a very good question. My only explanation to this is that their rulers might have been originally from the Slavic Church, and this might have happened during a 'history piece' that we are missing in the Poland history. If this is true this obviously happened prior to the 'conjunction' to the Catholic Church, for a short period of time, but long enough to transmit the language to the educated people which apparently was never lost, after the theocrats of Poland joined the Catholic Church.

    Ucraine is also catholic, did that happened also in Ucraine?
    Chech I think also catholic did that happened also to Them?


    which language is not a clergy language?


    since Greek Latin Slavic Albanian are clergy languages

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Ucraine is also catholic, did that happened also in Ucraine?
    Chech I think also catholic did that happened also to Them?
    Yes.


    which language is not a clergy language?


    since Greek Latin Slavic Albanian are clergy languages
    Albanian is the clearest example of a historical vernacular language among all European languages. Even among the Albanian clergy, in their writings was expressed a clear ethnic identity about the people:

    ...fatesse doresse Arbenesce, prastu per εinima me chete......
    and their language

    ...Tve mos dijtune Stampatorete ghiuhenee Arbenesce, ndoonesse vne iemendogne,.....
    Therefore there is nowhere attested Albanian to be anything else but a family hearth language.
    Last edited by Zeus10; 04-12-12 at 21:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Yes.



    Albanian is the clearest example of a historical vernacular language among all European languages. Even among the Albanian clergy, in their writings was expressed a clear ethnic identity about the people:



    and their language



    Therefore there is nowhere attested Albanian to be anything else but a family hearth language.

    Funny or Tragic,

    latin is a clergy language, so Latin speaking Catholic rulers teach Italian Francais Spanish latin languages,
    Greek is also a clergy language, Greek Orthodox priests Teach Greek to Greeks
    Slavic is also a Clergy language, Slavic Rulers learn Orthodox Slavic Clergy language and Teach Catholic Polands Chechs Ucraine etc Slavic language, But !!! outside church but outside since inside Churches Latin was Spoken,
    so Church and Clergy language did not manage with Rulers!!!, a mistake of church, since it manage with Greek and Latin,

    But in Albania where the 3 oldest Text are words from the ceremony and Church,
    NO it is not a clergy language,

    Probably all the world speaks clergy languages except Albanians right Zeus?

    Tell us something Zeus why you have the Avatar of a God of a clergy language?

    Zeus was God of Greeks, which Learn Greek from Church of Polytheists and their primary God Zeus,
    why you are using the Avatar of conspiracy Clergy religion?

    You should hate Zeus cause he teach Greeks a Clergy language,

    Albanian is also a Clergy language since the 3 oldest text are Church rituals,
    as Greek as Latin as Slavic,
    Albanian spoke another language before and learn Albanian from church,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Funny or Tragic,

    latin is a clergy language, so Latin speaking Catholic rulers teach Italian Francais Spanish latin languages,
    Greek is also a clergy language, Greek Orthodox priests Teach Greek to Greeks
    Slavic is also a Clergy language, Slavic Rulers learn Orthodox Slavic Clergy language and Teach Catholic Polands Chechs Ucraine etc Slavic language, But !!! outside church but outside since inside Churches Latin was Spoken,
    so Church and Clergy language did not manage with Rulers!!!, a mistake of church, since it manage with Greek and Latin,

    But in Albania where the 3 oldest Text are words from the ceremony and Church,
    NO it is not a clergy language,

    Probably all the world speaks clergy languages except Albanians right Zeus?

    Tell us something Zeus why you have the Avatar of a God of a clergy language?

    Zeus was God of Greeks, which Learn Greek from Church of Polytheists and their primary God Zeus,
    why you are using the Avatar of conspiracy Clergy religion?

    You should hate Zeus cause he teach Greeks a Clergy language,

    Albanian is also a Clergy language since the 3 oldest text are Church rituals,
    as Greek as Latin as Slavic,
    Albanian spoke another language before and learn Albanian from church,
    No Yetos, unfortunately it's not. In 1635 Franciscium Blanchus, created the

    Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum(Latin-Albanian Dictitionary)

    to help Albanians to undestand

    Isilli Libre me pelghiei, e mu duch se chiste meu chiene per ndoogna ndime
    the predication and all other ceremonies performed in the Latin language in the Catholic Church, which he calls:

    Kiscese Romesse
    the Church of Rome(Roman Catholic Church)

    The entire passage in Albanian:

    Tue passune dite, e perdite (te dascunitee mij mbassi hina nde College cuituem me ghisc zoppe Libre chesce me ndimuem mbe gnaane ghiuhene tane, ghi po bdarete, e po bastastarξohete saa maa parete vè; e maa fort me ndimuem giξξe atɣne ghi iane ndurξenite tine ɛot e te Scintesse Kisce Cattoliche es dijne ghiuhene Latine, paa tessijet as cusc smune scerbegne si duhete, paa te maξ error, e sai, hesaapete, ɛakonete, e Ceremoniatee Scintesse Kiscese Romesse. Me ndɣ io pach mire me marre, e me ncheξɣem nghiuhet ze Letine mbe ghiuhet Tarbenesce gna Ditionaar, ghi tietre sascte vecesse gna Libre, ghi kaa ndeuetehe saa fiale, e saa emena iane, e gindene nde chete piesse Seculi
    So he clearly named the Latin language as the "Church Language"(of Rome ~Catholic), and with his 'testimony' from 400 hundred years ago, dropped your presumption that Albanian is a religious language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    That's a very good question. My only explanation to this is that their rulers might have been originally from the Slavic Church, and this might have happened during a 'history piece' that we are missing in the Poland history. If this is true this obviously happened prior to the 'conjunction' to the Catholic Church, for a short period of time, but long enough to transmit the language to the educated people which apparently was never lost, after the theocrats of Poland joined the Catholic Church.
    I have another explanation, it is the simplest one. There was a common Slavic language that they all spoke before spreading around half of Europe. From Byzantine and Roman records we know that there was a Slavic expansion, right? So if they expanded, it is logical to assume that they expanded from somewhere, and from much smaller place (otherwise it defies the word "expansion"). If they came from a smaller area, why wouldn't have had a same language?
    This common origin idea, can easily explain why all Slavic peoples speak Slavic language. Regardless of what church they belonged to and pagan past. Regardless of political influences, either of Holly Roman Empire, Mongol Hordes or Turkish Ottomans.
    It also goes nicely together with all legends, spoken traditions, first historic written records, linguistics, etc, etc.
    Everything fits.

    If everything fits, with no exceptions, why isn't it the truth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    No Yetos, unfortunately it's not. In 1635 Franciscium Blanchus, created the

    Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum(Latin-Albanian Dictitionary)

    to help Albanians to undestand



    the predication and all other ceremonies performed in the Latin language in the Catholic Church, which he calls:



    the Church of Rome(Roman Catholic Church)

    The entire passage in Albanian:



    So he clearly named the Latin language as the "Church Language"(of Rome ~Catholic), and with his 'testimony' from 400 hundred years ago, dropped your presumption that Albanian is a religious language.
    come on Zeus, by a signal post and a stone in Rome senate you claim that Greek is a clergy language,
    avoiding the existance in every life things like cups,
    and in case of Albania where 3 oldest texts are Clergy, and in wrong Alphabet like Early Greek it is obvious,
    First Church used Latin which people know, and then teach Albanian and gave Albanian Alphabet,
    Like with Latin,
    Like with Slavic,
    Like with Greek
    same with Albania, a Clergy language,

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post

    If everything fits, with no exceptions, why isn't it the truth?
    There is an exception, Church Divided the Albanian Speaking Europe to 2 new languages, Slavic and Germanic, since the old trick conspiracy of Greek and Latin did not work, so they make Cyrill in East to create a Clergy language, and Luther in West to create another, and they teach languages to people that spoke other languages before like the primordial lingua of Zeus10,
    Only in Albania language is not a religious one, that is the exception,
    Only there Church speak same language with people and learn the language of the people,
    Right Zeus10?

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    If a "clergy language" was forced on a population, what language would they originally speak?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    If a "clergy language" was forced on a population, what language would they originally speak?
    Slavic, lol. It is exactly same question I was going to ask Zeus.
    Cyril and Methodius wrote bible in common Slavic, so the Slavs could finely understand church teachings. Simple like that, and no new language was invented. By the way, they also created new alphabet for Slavic language but it didn't take hold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    That's a very good question. My only explanation to this is that their rulers might have been originally from the Slavic Church, and this might have happened during a 'history piece' that we are missing in the Poland history. If this is true this obviously happened prior to the 'conjunction' to the Catholic Church, for a short period of time, but long enough to transmit the language to the educated people which apparently was never lost, after the theocrats of Poland joined the Catholic Church.

    The problem is that you want to twist History
    When cyrill and method translate Bibble
    THERE WERE NO CATHOLIC, NO ORTHODOX

    CATHOLIC AND ORTHODOX DIVISION STARTED AT 1054 AD WHILE SLAVIC TRANSLATION IS AT LEAST CENTURY EARLIER

    SIMPLY WHEN DIVISION WAS DONE POLAND DECIDED TO GO WITH CATHOLICS,
    a more simple explanation. when Slavs enter Christianity there was one church, not 2,

    the division to orthodox and Catholics is centuries after the translation,

    So Slavic Polish decide to follow Catholic while other Slavic decide to follow Orthodox,

    the rest are twisting History.
    POLAND DID NOT JOIN (conjuction) NEITHER CATHOLIC NEITHER ORTHODOX,

    THEY JOIN THE ONE CHURCH,
    AFTER years Happened the division, meaning that after years rulers and priests decide to Follow Catholic
    When Cyrill wrote his alphabet and translation THERE WAS NO CATHOLIC NO ORTHODOX

    OCS is max 863 done.
    Schism(a) is at 1054


    200 years after,

    again twisting History?

    POLAND as Ucraine as majority of Slavic Speaking UNITE THE ONE CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH,
    WHEN THAT CHURCH DIVED TO 2 THEY DECIDE TO FOLLOW THE ROMEOCATHOLIC TYPE THAN THE ORTHODOX TYPE.

    OLD CHURCH SLAVONIC WAS Part of the 'ONE CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH'
    NOT OTHODOXOCATHOLIC NEITHER ROMEOCATHOLIC WHEN WAS ESTABLISHED,
    THE DIVISION IS AFTER 200

    the rest are sick imagination from your effort to twist history,

    just to restore history

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_and_Method

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

    some slavs decide to follow the Western liturgy, and some decide to follow the Eastern liturgy, and mainly that was Bishops decision

    Cyrill and Method are considered equal to apostols at East church,
    co-Patron saints to West church,
    cause their effort was done under the one church,

  25. #25
    Regular Member Zeus10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I have another explanation, it is the simplest one. There was a common Slavic language that they all spoke before spreading around half of Europe. From Byzantine and Roman records we know that there was a Slavic expansion, right? So if they expanded, it is logical to assume that they expanded from somewhere, and from much smaller place (otherwise it defies the word "expansion"). If they came from a smaller area, why wouldn't have had a same language?
    This common origin idea, can easily explain why all Slavic peoples speak Slavic language. Regardless of what church they belonged to and pagan past. Regardless of political influences, either of Holly Roman Empire, Mongol Hordes or Turkish Ottomans.
    It also goes nicely together with all legends, spoken traditions, first historic written records, linguistics, etc, etc.
    Everything fits.

    If everything fits, with no exceptions, why isn't it the truth?
    What the Slavic had in common was they were practicer of a common Slavic religion related to the Orthodoxy, and that was the source of their common language, which after splitted up in many local dialects, which became distinct languages thereafter. The Σκλάβοι or Σκλαβηνοί mentioned by the unreliable Procopius, were the slaves of the Byzantine rulers and they had no common ethnic origin and therefore no common ethnic language, but I am not denying that whoever created OCS was based on a spoken Slavic-like idiom. However there's never been an ethnos neither of a minor nor of a major proportion, of a natural ethnic Slavic origin.

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