When did baltic and slavic split ?

[Yetos]

If everything fits, with no exceptions, why isn't it the truth?

There is an exception, Church Divided the Albanian Speaking Europe to 2 new languages, Slavic and Germanic, since the old trick conspiracy of Greek and Latin did not work, so they make Cyrill in East to create a Clergy language, and Luther in West to create another, and they teach languages to people that spoke other languages before like the primordial lingua of Zeus10,
Only in Albania language is not a religious one, that is the exception,
Only there Church speak same language with people and learn the language of the people,
Right Zeus10?

 

[Kardu]

If a "clergy language" was forced on a population, what language would they originally speak?

 

[LeBrok]

If a "clergy language" was forced on a population, what language would they originally speak?

Slavic, lol. It is exactly same question I was going to ask Zeus.
Cyril and Methodius wrote bible in common Slavic, so the Slavs could finely understand church teachings. Simple like that, and no new language was invented. By the way, they also created new alphabet for Slavic language but it didn't take hold.

 

[Yetos]

That's a very good question. My only explanation to this is that their rulers might have been originally from the Slavic Church, and this might have happened during a 'history piece' that we are missing in the Poland history. If this is true this obviously happened prior to the 'conjunction' to the Catholic Church, for a short period of time, but long enough to transmit the language to the educated people which apparently was never lost, after the theocrats of Poland joined the Catholic Church.

The problem is that you want to twist History
When cyrill and method translate Bibble
THERE WERE NO CATHOLIC, NO ORTHODOX

CATHOLIC AND ORTHODOX DIVISION STARTED AT 1054 AD WHILE SLAVIC TRANSLATION IS AT LEAST CENTURY EARLIER

SIMPLY WHEN DIVISION WAS DONE POLAND DECIDED TO GO WITH CATHOLICS,
a more simple explanation. when Slavs enter Christianity there was one church, not 2,

the division to orthodox and Catholics is centuries after the translation,

So Slavic Polish decide to follow Catholic while other Slavic decide to follow Orthodox,

the rest are twisting History.
POLAND DID NOT JOIN (conjuction) NEITHER CATHOLIC NEITHER ORTHODOX,

THEY JOIN THE ONE CHURCH,
AFTER years Happened the division, meaning that after years rulers and priests decide to Follow Catholic
When Cyrill wrote his alphabet and translation THERE WAS NO CATHOLIC NO ORTHODOX

OCS is max 863 done.
Schism(a) is at 1054

200 years after,

again twisting History?

POLAND as Ucraine as majority of Slavic Speaking UNITE THE ONE CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH,
WHEN THAT CHURCH DIVED TO 2 THEY DECIDE TO FOLLOW THE ROMEOCATHOLIC TYPE THAN THE ORTHODOX TYPE.

OLD CHURCH SLAVONIC WAS Part of the 'ONE CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH'
NOT OTHODOXOCATHOLIC NEITHER ROMEOCATHOLIC WHEN WAS ESTABLISHED,
THE DIVISION IS AFTER 200

the rest are sick imagination from your effort to twist history,

just to restore history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_and_Method

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East–West_Schism

some slavs decide to follow the Western liturgy, and some decide to follow the Eastern liturgy, and mainly that was Bishops decision

Cyrill and Method are considered equal to apostols at East church,
co-Patron saints to West church,
cause their effort was done under the one church,

 

[Zeus10]

I have another explanation, it is the simplest one. There was a common Slavic language that they all spoke before spreading around half of Europe. From Byzantine and Roman records we know that there was a Slavic expansion, right? So if they expanded, it is logical to assume that they expanded from somewhere, and from much smaller place (otherwise it defies the word "expansion"). If they came from a smaller area, why wouldn't have had a same language?
This common origin idea, can easily explain why all Slavic peoples speak Slavic language. Regardless of what church they belonged to and pagan past. Regardless of political influences, either of Holly Roman Empire, Mongol Hordes or Turkish Ottomans.
It also goes nicely together with all legends, spoken traditions, first historic written records, linguistics, etc, etc.
Everything fits.

If everything fits, with no exceptions, why isn't it the truth?

What the Slavic had in common was they were practicer of a common Slavic religion related to the Orthodoxy, and that was the source of their common language, which after splitted up in many local dialects, which became distinct languages thereafter. The Σκλάβοι or Σκλαβηνοί mentioned by the unreliable Procopius, were the slaves of the Byzantine rulers and they had no common ethnic origin and therefore no common ethnic language, but I am not denying that whoever created OCS was based on a spoken Slavic-like idiom. However there's never been an ethnos neither of a minor nor of a major proportion, of a natural ethnic Slavic origin.

 

[Yetos]

What the Slavic had in common was they were practicer of a common Slavic religion related to the Orthodoxy, and that was the source of their common language, which after splitted up in many local dialects, which became distinct languages thereafter. The Σκλάβοι or Σκλαβηνοί mentioned by the unreliable Procopius, were the slaves of the Byzantine rulers and they had no common ethnic origin and therefore no common ethnic language, but I am not denying that whoever created OCS was based on a spoken Slavic-like idiom. However there's never been an ethnos neither of a minor nor of a major proportion, of a natural ethnic Slavic origin.

Twisted methods and twisted theories can be created by twisted mines like yours


just to restore history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_and_Method

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism




SLavic language has Nothing to do with Orthodoxy, or Catholicism
Slavic people enter the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC BEFORE THE SCHISM OF 1054 THAT CREATED THE DIVISION OF EAST AND WEST CHURCH.

the rest are up your mind like the one 'daughters of old Church Slavonic'
or as the solution with 'foreign Slavic church rulers'

 

[Zeus10]

Twisted methods and twisted theories can be created by twisted mines like yours


just to restore history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_and_Method

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism




SLavic language has Nothing to do with Orthodoxy, or Catholicism
Slavic people enter the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC BEFORE THE SCHISM OF 1054 THAT CREATED THE DIVISION OF EAST AND WEST CHURCH.

the rest are up your mind like the one 'daughters of old Church Slavonic'

Ok Yetos. Now just step aside and don't quote and comment me any longer. Your intelectual and education level deserves no mercy.

 

[Kardu]

Zeus10, do you also claim that well-attested Slavic Pagan pantheon was also created by Christian saints Cyril and Methodius?

 

[Yetos]

Ok Yetos. Now just step aside and don't quote and comment me any longer. Your intelectual and education level deserves no mercy.

Twisted methods and twisted theories only by twisted minds can be created, like yours

you are right, I can not reach your level,
your twisted intelectual is many levels up, :innocent:

 

[zanipolo]

Original Prussians were actually exterminated...

The baltic prussians are not eliminated, they are still around..actually the russian owned area of old kalingrad is seeking to be a soverirn nation called prusia ( note the 1 s )

The germans took the name prussia after teh teutonic kights defeated the baltic prussians in the 13th century.
IIRC it took a 60 year war.

typically, the slavic, germanic, italic, nordic languaged peoples always tried to falsely inherit cultures that they conquered......very similar to the ottomans claiming they are descendants of also the byzantines because they conquered byzantine.

try asking a slavic person to name the original slav tribe.............they will never answer , because 99% do not know

 

[Kardu]

The baltic prussians are not eliminated, they are still around..actually the russian owned area of old kalingrad is seeking to be a soverirn nation called prusia ( note the 1 s )

The germans took the name prussia after teh teutonic kights defeated the baltic prussians in the 13th century.
IIRC it took a 60 year war.

typically, the slavic, germanic, italic, nordic languaged peoples always tried to falsely inherit cultures that they conquered......very similar to the ottomans claiming they are descendants of also the byzantines because they conquered byzantine.

try asking a slavic person to name the original slav tribe.............they will never answer , because 99% do not know

Most of the conquerors tried to incorporated/claimed culture of defeated if it was worthy for whatever reason.

If you read the chronicles you will see that great majority of Prussians were physically destroyed, the remnants fully assimilated by the neighbours.
That movement for Prussia in Kaliningrad Region is just a romantic phantasy on behalf of political players.

As for the tribes, a member of which modern nation knows to which tribe they belong? Do English know? Italians, Spanish etc.?

 

[Zeus10]

As for the tribes, member of which modern nation know to which tribe they belong? Do English know? Italians, Spanish etc.?

That's true. Newly created nations like the ones mentioned from you above , can claim no inheritance from the ancient tribes. It's a different story, when it comes to the nations with a long ethnic history. The 15th Century Albanian leader Scanderbeg, was very aware about his people origin (Albanians). When Giovani Antonio the Prince of Taranto compared the Albanians to the sheep, he claimed descendence from the Ancient Epirotes, Pyrrhus the Great and Alexander the Great. In the response letter he wrote

Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro (Pyrrhus the Great), who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.
I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?

 

[zanipolo]

Most of the conquerors tried to incorporated/claimed culture of defeated if it was worthy for whatever reason.

If you read the chronicles you will see that great majority of Prussians were physically destroyed, the remnants fully assimilated by the neighbours.
That movement for Prussia in Kaliningrad Region is just a romantic phantasy on behalf of political players.

As for the tribes, member of which modern nation know to which tribe they belong? Do English know? Italians, Spanish etc.?

Distortion of history when someone claims anothers identity.

Distortion of history when someone uses a linguistic terminology and applies it to a culture , like slavic or germanic etc

whatever you may think , baltic prussians still exist today, its a distortion of national propoganda from countries in the region that deny this.

english, know they are either, saxon, angles, jutes, frisian, or one of the nordic viking people or whatever, same with italians, spanish, french..........slavic people cannot name a tribe/culture and neither can the germanic people to a lesser degree.

Are you saying , as a georgian you do not know the ancient tribes of georgia?

 

[Yetos]

That's true. Newly created nations like the ones mentioned from you above , can claim no inheritance from the ancient tribes. It's a different story, when it comes to the nations with a long ethnic history. The 15th Century Albanian leader Scanderbeg, was very aware about his people origin (Albanians). When Giovani Antonio the Prince of Taranto compared the Albanians to the sheep, he claimed descendence from the Ancient Epirotes, Pyrrhus the Great and Alexander the Great. In the response letter he wrote

twisted methods are born in twisted minds, wich even twist Texts




IN WHAT LANGUAGE THAT WAS WRITTEN?
AND what SAY EXACTLY?

don't put extra words, you started to twist texts also?

1) first of all the thread is about Baltic and Slavic which you name clergy language a vehicular language, and modern Slavic as daughters of a church

2) what connection has, what Kastrioti wrote in his correspondance with Tarantines?


3) since you Use Kastrioti tell us at least in what Language that letter was written, since Latin Greek and Slavic are vehicular languages,
and why you make a 'free-rough' translation'
does the original text say
<<If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia>>
or you put it?



4)
IS THAT THE SAME REASON YOU CLAIM A GREEK GOD AVATAR?

do you claim that you are a descentant of an ancient Greek god?

 

[Kardu]

Distortion of history when someone claims anothers identity.

Distortion of history when someone uses a linguistic terminology and applies it to a culture , like slavic or germanic etc

whatever you may think , baltic prussians still exist today, its a distortion of national propoganda from countries in the region that deny this.

english, know they are either, saxon, angles, jutes, frisian, or one of the nordic viking people or whatever, same with italians, spanish, french..........slavic people cannot name a tribe/culture and neither can the germanic people to a lesser degree.

Are you saying , as a georgian you do not know the ancient tribes of georgia?

Who are the Baltic Prussians today? That way we can also say that Etruscans still exist or Minoans etc...

Of course I know the ancient or not so ancient tribes of Georgia and to which my ancestors belonged to, but so what? Do you deny existence of Slavic tribes?

 

[zanipolo]

Who are the Baltic Prussians today? That way we can also say that Etruscans still exist or Minoans etc...

Of course I know the ancient or not so ancient tribes of Georgia and to which my ancestors belonged to, but so what? Do you deny existence of Slavic tribes?

I do not deny the existance of slavic tribes, but slavic is not a tribe its a linguistic group, like germanic. . sycthians , sarmatians are not slavic tribes........I would like to know who are these slavic tribes by name.
Only 1 tribe is said to be slavic, a tribe called Stavani (Stavanoi) who lived in the northern Carpathian mountains.
You cannot claim anything due to language, if this is incorrect, then you are english because we communicate in english.


Baltic prusians, would be some, poles, latvians, estonians etc etc dispersed....there are even genetic markers for them.

 

[Yetos]

I do not deny the existance of slavic tribes, but slavic is not a tribe its a linguistic group, like germanic. . sycthians , sarmatians are not slavic tribes........I would like to know who are these slavic tribes by name.
Only 1 tribe is said to be slavic, a tribe called Stavani (Stavanoi) who lived in the northern Carpathian mountains.
You cannot claim anything due to language, if this is incorrect, then you are english because we communicate in english.


Baltic prusians, would be some, poles, latvians, estonians etc etc dispersed....there are even genetic markers for them.

I think you can guess,

from all Roman and Greek chronicles we don't know them,
they could be here, or they could came from elsewhere,
but the first seems little bit stretchedto be such a big linguistic group and no Historian mention about,
so they came from else where,
possible areas, North far North, East inland (very north from Crimea or more East)
by watching the dates we see that Goths Vandals are leaving central Europe after ROMAN dicline, we see Huns and other steppe people to arive, also we see the Northern exit to Black sea of Varragians,
from History we know that Thracians and especially a quenn named Tomaris comes from Caspian sea,
meaning that Thracian were till Caspian,
also we know that Scythians entered and created Scythia minor, so Scythian and Thracian got mixed already,
from the Golden Horde and the rest steppe Hordes we see only Magyar and Finn kept their language,
so in one hand we have a possible known nation or group of tribes, and the on the other an unknown,
but we know Slavic although were recorded in Great moravia, were spoken even to Roxolani lands,

that again leads us to 2 lands of origin,
1 is the North and central Europe, and Varangians to East to spread them, and the other is lands near Roxolani,
But
conserning Balkans we have 2 entries, one is the known from Great Moravia and Pannonia , and the other is the Severi from Ucraine via Romania,
the second is a key,
Bulgars of Asparuch were allies of Severi, they settled side by side and they cooperate, they almost moved same time through roads that are beside, when enter Balkans,
if we understand that then we have a key. that leads us beside to Scythia major, or even scythia major it shelve, while through Scythian minor they were already familiar with Thracian,
also the case of Sclavini
their entrance in Great Moravia and Balkans seems to be the spark of the rest known world to face them with different eye,
Sparkey in a Thread said that it si very possible that some Y HG in Balkans came from Central Europe and Ucraine,
it is clear that Slavic languages were mainly developed outside Roman empire, (the inside but from paysants and peacefull people, seems not ok with me)
from a population that was forced to devastate or cooperate with Steppe people invasion from East, and not from North, but from Linguistic we know that are relative with Baltic,
that means either that both came-enter almost same or near time-age, or the one was near the other,
so the solutions are
Baltic came same time with Slavic?
Baltic was spoken in Baltic lands before, so Slavic language was a nearby area language.
no matter what seems like their exodus to central and south Europe was done as a chain reaction with Roman decline, Goths, Huns etc to a relative speaking population, Scytho-Thracians

 

[Kardu]

I do not deny the existance of slavic tribes, but slavic is not a tribe its a linguistic group, like germanic. . sycthians , sarmatians are not slavic tribes........I would like to know who are these slavic tribes by name.
Only 1 tribe is said to be slavic, a tribe called Stavani (Stavanoi) who lived in the northern Carpathian mountains.
You cannot claim anything due to language, if this is incorrect, then you are english because we communicate in english.


Baltic prusians, would be some, poles, latvians, estonians etc etc dispersed....there are even genetic markers for them.

I think you are mixing some terms... Which tribes are tribes then? That way Georgian is just a langauge and all those tribes in Georgia were not Georgian.

Have you bothered to check at least the wiki page? What do you say about this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_tribes

 

[zanipolo]

I think you are mixing some terms... Which tribes are tribes then? That way Georgian is just a langauge and all those tribes in Georgia were not Georgian.

Have you bothered to check at least the wiki page? What do you say about this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_tribes

i have........as per the term pre-proto-slavic, means they became slavic by language only because the slavs migrated that way...what would have happened if nordic languages arrived there first, then the term would be pre-proto-nordic .
Its basically a linguistic terminology. ..........

Considering that no Roman or Greek historian knew about slavic , then we can assume the tribes that where on the outside of the Roman empire and that they knew about them and did not designate them as slavic, clearly indiucates that they where not slavic but something else.

georgian is only a nationaltic title created in the 18th century when nations first appeared.
The Georgian people in antiquity have been known to the ancient Greeks and Romans as Colchians and Iberians.^[14][15] East Georgian tribes of Tibarenians-Iberians formed their kingdom in 7th century BCE. However, western Georgian tribes (Moschians, Suanians, Mingrelians and others) established the first Georgian state of Colchis (circa 1350 BCE)
There is nothing like this for slavic

So, this issue of balto-slavic etc etc are all linguistic terminology and not a cultural terminology

 

[Yetos]

i have........as per the term pre-proto-slavic, means they became slavic by language only because the slavs migrated that way...what would have happened if nordic languages arrived there first, then the term would be pre-proto-nordic .
Its basically a linguistic terminology. ..........

Considering that no Roman or Greek historian knew about slavic , then we can assume the tribes that where on the outside of the Roman empire and that they knew about them and did not designate them as slavic, clearly indiucates that they where not slavic but something else.

georgian is only a nationaltic title created in the 18th century when nations first appeared.
The Georgian people in antiquity have been known to the ancient Greeks and Romans as Colchians and Iberians.^[14][15] East Georgian tribes of Tibarenians-Iberians formed their kingdom in 7th century BCE. However, western Georgian tribes (Moschians, Suanians, Mingrelians and others) established the first Georgian state of Colchis (circa 1350 BCE)
There is nothing like this for slavic

So, this issue of balto-slavic etc etc are all linguistic terminology and not a cultural terminology

yet there is,

i don't know if the are connected but there is a nation described by Greeks as Χαλυβες - Haluves

if we turn to satem sounds the Greek Χ then we have Shaluv-es.
concerning that Slavs in their language tent to cut vowels (the IE language with less vowels) then it is possible to become Shluv-es, Although that is still in sphere of possibility, and not attested,

since Haluves can be connected with both Haal, and Slav.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...an-unknown-historical-tribe-Iron-age-begining

yet the Varna Necropolis seems to change history,
after varna we know that gold Mettalurgy had been invented somewhere there and in possible ratio of nearby,