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Thread: New phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup I2

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Post New phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup I2

    I have created a chronology of the I2 phylogeny to help better visualise the various subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have created a chronology of the I2 phylogeny to help better visualise the various subclades.
    It would be great if you put TMRCA for these haplogroups.

    In any case, a good job!

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    Regular Member Knovas's Avatar
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    I really wonder which specific subclade is mine. Adriano Squecco told me two years ago aprox my best result was "I2a1", when the new nomenclature was not yet available, so this is the same as telling I2a1a. However, I think he cannot gave a more accurate description because 23andme lacks some markers, so I'm afraid if I want more info I'll need to test FTDNA or something like this.

    Thanks for the tree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I really wonder which specific subclade is mine. Adriano Squecco told me two years ago aprox my best result was "I2a1", when the new nomenclature was not yet available, so this is the same as telling I2a1a. However, I think he cannot gave a more accurate description because 23andme lacks some markers, so I'm afraid if I want more info I'll need to test FTDNA or something like this.

    Thanks for the tree.
    I expect you to be L160+... there is some L160- in Spain (not sure about Catalonia) but generally L160- is more French, sometimes British/Irish/Norwegian. I'm not sure if 23andMe tests L160.

    Incidentally, this tree may change once again quite soon with Geno 2.0 SNPs coming out. Per Bernie Cullen:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Cullen
    I don't know of enough Geno 2.0 results in I2 to look for new terminal
    SNPs. So I am trying to figure out what high level relationships they
    may have already incorporated into their tree, based on the new Geno
    2.0 haplogroup labels. Something to do until we have multiple I-L161
    results to compare with each other etc.

    I2b1b is what they call I-L38 (I2b2 at FTDNA)

    I2b2a1 is what they call I-L621 (I2a2 "Dinaric" at FTDNA)

    I2b2b1 is what they call I-M26 (I2a1 at FTDNA)

    Have they added new levels to the tree or just rearranged it?
    To answer Bernie's question, it looks like there's at least one new SNP on the M26 branch... maybe one to unite M26+ with L1286+ (I2a-Alpine and I2a-Western)?

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    Regular Member Knovas's Avatar
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    Thanks sparkey for sharing your wisdom, you're probably right. I am not versed in this kind of things, 23andme only says I'm I2a1, so their nomenclature needs an update since a very long time. That's why I asked Adriano Squecco and he was only able to tell what I posted.

    My earliest known Canovas ancestor comes from Murcia, but this region was repopulated in historical times by Catalans and Aragonese during "Reconquista". The variant Canoves exists in Catalonia prior to this event (and still exists nowadays), so it can be considered Catalan in origins. Certainly, genealogy, history and genetics fit here.

    Maybe Catalans would show both L160+ and L160-, since the French and the rest of Iberians are our neighbours. Don't know If I'll confirm mine one day...I prefer to do it for free if possible LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Thanks sparkey for sharing your wisdom, you're probably right. I am not versed in this kind of things, 23andme only says I'm I2a1, so their nomenclature needs an update since a very long time. That's why I asked Adriano Squecco and he was only able to tell what I posted.

    My earliest known Canovas ancestor comes from Murcia, but this region was repopulated in historical times by Catalans and Aragonese during "Reconquista". The variant Canoves exists in Catalonia prior to this event (and still exists nowadays), so it can be considered Catalan in origins. Certainly, genealogy, history and genetics fit here.

    Maybe Catalans would show both L160+ and L160-, since the French and the rest of Iberians are our neighbours. Don't know If I'll confirm mine one day...I prefer to do it for free if possible LOL.
    maybe you need to reference it with the pre-roman findings from the article i posted in "ancient italian dna thread", half the testers where spanish and half italian.
    they seem to think all I in ancient times is from the balkans, that is, in pre-roman history

    I would also love to find out what the I* which is heavily on the adriatic side of Italy is
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I expect you to be L160+... there is some L160- in Spain (not sure about Catalonia) but generally L160- is more French, sometimes British/Irish/Norwegian. I'm not sure if 23andMe tests L160.

    Incidentally, this tree may change once again quite soon with Geno 2.0 SNPs coming out. Per Bernie Cullen:



    To answer Bernie's question, it looks like there's at least one new SNP on the M26 branch... maybe one to unite M26+ with L1286+ (I2a-Alpine and I2a-Western)?
    I am trying to help my sister who is looking into my fathers, mothers father who is I2c1 ......where can she search in regards to SNP's?
    All she has it its Alemani ...either southern germany near the rhine or Verona area

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I am trying to help my sister who is looking into my fathers, mothers father who is I2c1 ......where can she search in regards to SNP's?
    All she has it its Alemani ...either southern germany near the rhine or Verona area
    I doubt there will be anything new for I2c1... there's not a lot of interest in that clade. I'll post about it sometime if there's something that splits it; otherwise, STRs are good enough for anybody in it for now.

    There is an interesting Geno 2.0 transfer at the FTDNA project right now, but they're in I2c*-B.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I doubt there will be anything new for I2c1... there's not a lot of interest in that clade. I'll post about it sometime if there's something that splits it; otherwise, STRs are good enough for anybody in it for now.

    There is an interesting Geno 2.0 transfer at the FTDNA project right now, but they're in I2c*-B.
    ok

    maybe below is useful ...from T.Robb

    UPDATE11: Some Geno 2.0 SNPs that may be of interest to Haplogroup I1

    The current I1 SNP tree is roughly given by the following pathways:

    I1-M253 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → M227 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → M227 → M72 I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → P109 I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L205 I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L287 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L287 → L258 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L287 → L258 → L296 I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L300 I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L813 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → Z140 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → Z140 → L338 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → Z140 → L592 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → Z73 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → Z73 → L1302 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → L573 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → L803 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → L803 → L802 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → L803 → L1247 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z2040 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z2040 → Z2038 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z2040 → Z2038 → Z382 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z139 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z63 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z63 → L1237 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z63 → L1242 I1-M253 → Z131

    Of the SNPs in the Geno 2.0 test, there are approximately four hundred SNPs in the y-chromosome that are derived (rather than ancestral) that have so far been seen in at least some haplogroup I1 people. Most of those SNPs will probably be phyloequivalent to the SNPs given in the I1 SNP tree pathway shown above. But there are still a few interesting Geno 2.0 SNP alleles that may be important to haplogroup I1 people.
    They are:
    F1583+, found in an P109+ person.
    F2642+, found in an Z140+ person.
    F3312+, found in an M253+, but Z58-, Z63-, Z131- person.
    CTS7362+
    , CTS9352+, CTS9477+, found in a single L573+ person.
    YSC0000261+, found in three separate Z140+ people.
    CTS8647+
    , found in the same three people as YSC0000261+, and also in another Z140+ person, a L573+ person, and a Z60+ person.

    or here at bottom
    http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    maybe below is useful ...from T.Robb
    Useful for I1, of course. For I2, we're getting something:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Cullen
    I now have 5 csv files from Geno 2.0 and I have compared them to find
    a list of new SNPs in I-P37.2. I have not yet compiled a list of SNPs
    equivalent to P37.2, but I think I have tried to find all SNPs below
    P37.2. There are sure to be errors and omissions in this list--Bernie

    approximately P37.2 (no call for P37.2 but ancestral for non-P37.2 groups):
    PF3893


    approximately M26:
    CTS10400
    CTS1049
    CTS10546
    CTS11143
    CTS1132
    CTS11548
    CTS11766
    CTS12060
    CTS1272
    CTS1448
    CTS3353
    CTS5932
    CTS595
    CTS6027
    CTS7218
    CTS7373
    CTS7671
    CTS8968
    PF3818
    PF3848
    PF3863
    PF3865
    PF3875
    PF3947
    PF3962
    PF3963
    PF3965
    PF3969
    PF3972
    PF3973
    PF3975
    PF3977
    PF3978
    PF3980
    PF3983
    PF3984
    PF3985
    PF3988
    PF3992
    PF3999
    PF4000
    PF4043
    PF4046
    PF4047
    PF4048
    PF4049
    PF4050
    PF4061
    PF4069
    PF4075
    PF4076
    PF4079
    PF4080
    PF4098

    approximately M26 (multiple alleles in M26 but single, ancestral
    allele in non-M26 groups):
    PF3971
    PF3981
    PF4074

    approximately M26 (no call at M26 but ancestral allele in non-M26 groups):
    CTS2515
    CTS8969
    PF3968

    approximately L160:
    CTS11229
    CTS11338
    CTS11972
    CTS2111
    CTS6406
    CTS7201
    CTS8038
    CTS9062
    PF4053
    PF4060
    PF4086
    PF4088
    PF4089
    PF4096
    PF4189
    Z105
    Z120

    below M26 and parallel to L160:
    PF6947

    approxmately M423
    CTS11030
    CTS1293
    CTS176
    CTS1802
    CTS5375
    CTS5985
    CTS8239
    CTS8486

    approximately L621:
    CTS10228
    CTS1027
    CTS10936
    CTS11768
    CTS1846
    CTS4002
    CTS4012
    CTS5966
    CTS7175
    CTS7213
    CTS9349
    F3145

    approximately L161 (no call for L161 but ancestral for non-L161 groups):
    F2805
    L669

    below L621:
    none so far

  11. #11
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    He will probably post something at 23andme to check SNPs. Let's see if it's possible to know more with the SNPs available.

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    Interestingly with new data processed through our Georgian DNA project, we now have more different surnames tested as I2c-B than any other ethnic group including Armenians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Interestingly with new data processed through our Georgian DNA project, we now have more different surnames tested as I2c-B than any other ethnic group including Armenians.
    Are Georgians also beating Armenians in I2c-B diversity now? If so, that would change some conceptions about the Asian spread of the cluster. If you can't tell, it might be worth asking Paul Givargidze if he could redo his old I2 L460- tree so we can visualize it. I predict Armenians will still have more diversity, but I would be fascinated if that wasn't the case...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks Sparkey, I will ask him once we are allowed to make the haplotypes public on FTDNA.

    Meanwhile here is the tree which we've made with some new Georgians (me included). Georgians (underlined) seem to be spread around the tree. http://s017.radikal.ru/i434/1212/12/b6af247c7669.jpg

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    Why do you think that Armenians will have more diversity? :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Why do you think that Armenians will have more diversity? :)
    I expect that I2c-B is a European import that went through Anatolia around to the Caucasus. If Georgians have more diversity than Armenians, that might imply a different direction.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I expect that I2c-B is a European import that went through Anatolia around to the Caucasus. If Georgians have more diversity than Armenians, that might imply a different direction.
    I also believe that I2c came to the Caucasus from Europe/Balkans but I think your consideration about its diversity is based on linguistic grounds, namely since Armenians speak Indo-European language (hypothetically from a Balkan group) and Georgians don't, the former must have more diverse set of Balkan haplotypes.
    I think we should take in consideration the fact that Armenians are heavily admixed people, and while they speak an IndoEuropean language (with strong local subtsrate) they are by no means homogenous and consist of various layers of ancient populations of Anatolia, Caucasus and Mesopotamia.
    While Mushki/Meskhi/Phrigyans (with whom I believe I2c appeared in the Caucasus) didn't manage to change language of the ancestors of modern Georgians their presence in various parts of the country is well attested by Greeks, Romans and later authors.
    Current Georgian I2c-s come from different parts of Georgia, mountains and low-lands alike. Hopefully in January we will be already able to make their results public.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Per Nordtvedt, Geno 2.0 has produced a "horde" of new SNPs relevant to I2c: PF3911, PF3917, PF3931, PF3938, PF3927, PF3887, PF3889, PF3893, PF3895, PF3896, PF3898, PF3903, PF3906, and F2554. All of these were found in a Hungarian I2c-B sample but not in L460+ samples, and they could all be anywhere on the tree from the split with L460+ to private. That is, expect some to unite I2c with I2b-ADR, some to be equivalent to L596, some to uniquely define I2c-B, and some to subdivide I2c-B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Per Nordtvedt, Geno 2.0 has produced a "horde" of new SNPs relevant to I2c: PF3911, PF3917, PF3931, PF3938, PF3927, PF3887, PF3889, PF3893, PF3895, PF3896, PF3898, PF3903, PF3906, and F2554. All of these were found in a Hungarian I2c-B sample but not in L460+ samples, and they could all be anywhere on the tree from the split with L460+ to private. That is, expect some to unite I2c with I2b-ADR, some to be equivalent to L596, some to uniquely define I2c-B, and some to subdivide I2c-B.
    Excellent news! Finally I can order a new test...

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    So none of the new SNPs found in the I2c-B folk (now 2 samples) are unique to I2c-B... sorry I2c-B people, it looks like you're still I2c*. An I2c-A person (a close relation to Bigfoot Wallace) got a lot of new SNPs not common with I2c-B, though: PF3881, PF3892, PF3904, PF3912, PF3918, PF3924, PF3928, PF3930, PF3933, PF3937, PF6328, PF6914, and PF6915. We're not sure yet which of these define the A cluster and which split it (or perhaps unite it with the L1251+ C cluster? we shall see...).

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    Thanks, Sparkey :) No worries, it does make us feel special :):)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Per Nordtvedt, Geno 2.0 has produced a "horde" of new SNPs relevant to I2c: PF3911, PF3917, PF3931, PF3938, PF3927, PF3887, PF3889, PF3893, PF3895, PF3896, PF3898, PF3903, PF3906, and F2554. All of these were found in a Hungarian I2c-B sample but not in L460+ samples, and they could all be anywhere on the tree from the split with L460+ to private. That is, expect some to unite I2c with I2b-ADR, some to be equivalent to L596, some to uniquely define I2c-B, and some to subdivide I2c-B.
    would you know the subclades which belong to

    I2a3 - alpine

    I2a3 - western

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    would you know the subclades which belong to

    I2a3 - alpine

    I2a3 - western
    They are united with the SNP L1286, and have just been united with M26 with the Geno 2.0 SNP CTS595. Alpine is L1286+ L233- L348-; Western is L1286+ L233+ L348-; and there is an outlier group (surname Fleming) that is L1286+ L233+ L348+.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The latest I2c Geno 2.0 sample comes from the L1251+ ("C") branch, and several of the SNPs mentioned earlier as being in the A branch but not the B branch, such as PF3881, were found in the L1251+ sample. So, that unites clusters A and C. We need more samples, but PF6328 could uniquely define the A branch, because that one was not on the C branch.

    So now we have SNP definitions for the 3 I2c branches:
    "A": PF3881+ L1251-
    "B": PF3881- L1251-
    "C": PF3881+ L1251+

    Group B is the outlier, which makes sense considering how much its geographic distribution differs.

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