Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 74

Thread: New phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup I1

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,410


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    2 members found this post helpful.

    Post New phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup I1

    Here is the latest phylogeny of I1 subclades according to ISOGG and FTDNA.

    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #2
    Regular Member St Delcambre's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-12-09
    Posts
    53

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1a3a1c
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U2e1a

    Ethnic group
    French (Nord region) ancestry
    Country: United States



    Great update.

    I have a question for Maciamo and/or Sparkey:

    Is the I1a3 sublcade and it's offshoots part of the older "Anglo-Saxon generic" grouping? I apologize if my question is poorly worded I'm just trying to get an understanding of what group I1a3 is associated with as it's where I fall, I1a3a1c to be exact.

  3. #3
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by St Delcambre View Post
    Great update.

    I have a question for Maciamo and/or Sparkey:

    Is the I1a3 sublcade and it's offshoots part of the older "Anglo-Saxon generic" grouping? I apologize if my question is poorly worded I'm just trying to get an understanding of what group I1a3 is associated with as it's where I fall, I1a3a1c to be exact.
    Basically, I1-AS ended up being defined by I1-Z58, with a few exceptions. Some weirder I1-AS, including some of which had ended up in the big "AS-generic" bag, turned out to be outliers outside of I1-Z58, and some weirder "non-AS" haplotypes ended up in I1-Z58. But as a whole, the correlation is pretty good. See Nordtvedt's Z58 tree.

  4. #4
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Is the Z63 group the vistula gothic and crimean gothic as stated by KN in march 2012?
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  5. #5
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,410


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by St Delcambre View Post
    Great update.

    I have a question for Maciamo and/or Sparkey:

    Is the I1a3 sublcade and it's offshoots part of the older "Anglo-Saxon generic" grouping? I apologize if my question is poorly worded I'm just trying to get an understanding of what group I1a3 is associated with as it's where I fall, I1a3a1c to be exact.
    I personally don't like the naming of haplotypes as "Anglo-Saxon" when their geographic range is pan-Germanic or Non-Nordic-Germanic. I use the label 'West Germanic' for all Germanic peoples found in Britain, the Low Countries, France and Germany. That also includes southern offshoots like the Lombards in Italy. Most of the West Germanic subclades not limited to the British Isles are probably Frankish in origin. Those limited to Germany would be associated with other Germanic tribes like the Bavarians, Thuringians or the Alemanni.

  6. #6
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,410


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Is the Z63 group the vistula gothic and crimean gothic as stated by KN in march 2012?
    The geographic distribution of I1-Z63 is much too wide (England, the Low Countries and West Germany...) to be exclusively Gothic. That's why I did not label it. But I agree that the Goths most probably carried Z63 lineages because this subclade is found in Central and Eastern Europe (especially Poland and Ukraine) as well as in Iberia and South Italy. I would expect to find it also in the southern Balkans (around Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria). So far its absence from the Maghreb is another argument in favour of the Goths, since it was only the Vandals (and the non-Germanic Alans) who invaded North Africa.

    The main counter argument against a Gothic origin of Z63 is its low incidence in Sweden, where the Goths supposedly originated. I would rather believe that Saxons from North Germany integrated the Gothic tribe before they migrated to Poland and Ukraine. That would explain everything.

  7. #7
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The geographic distribution of I1-Z63 is much too wide (England, the Low Countries and West Germany...) to be exclusively Gothic. That's why I did not label it. But I agree that the Goths most probably carried Z63 lineages because this subclade is found in Central and Eastern Europe (especially Poland and Ukraine) as well as in Iberia and South Italy. I would expect to find it also in the southern Balkans (around Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria). So far its absence from the Maghreb is another argument in favour of the Goths, since it was only the Vandals (and the non-Germanic Alans) who invaded North Africa.

    The main counter argument against a Gothic origin of Z63 is its low incidence in Sweden, where the Goths supposedly originated. I would rather believe that Saxons from North Germany integrated the Gothic tribe before they migrated to Poland and Ukraine. That would explain everything.
    thats a good point, but I favour the goths originating in pomerania, migrating to sweden and then back again and finally to the black sea.

  8. #8
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    Reply

    "Most of the West Germanic subclades not limited to the British Isles are probably Frankish in origin. Those limited to Germany would be associated with other Germanic tribes like the Bavarians, Thuringians, or the Alemanii."

    Well I guess it depends on what time frame we are talking about (assuming we are specifically speaking of I1 carriers here)...It looks like they all squeezed through the base of Jutland into Northern Germany at some point based on the population maps. Were they all Angles at some earlier point, or just pass through members of Northern tribes?

    I agree with your theory on Z 63 pollinating the Goths before they migrated into Poland/Ukraine.
    Last edited by nordicwarrior; 02-01-13 at 08:09. Reason: spelling

  9. #9
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    Maciamo,
    I had I1 being a large percentage of the ancient Charude tribe at one point (using basic verbage, trade routes, etc.) but everything I came up with could have applied equally to I2 or I1. I think the pitch resin/Harz mountain/Baltic vessels connection could have had huge impacts on early I1 movement while also explaining the strange donut hole in R1b around the Harz. Are there excavations planned in the bog areas of these mountains? That might explain alot...

  10. #10
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    If Charude/Harude carried Z58 that would explain some West Germanic spread (Arivistus, leader of the Suebi brought the Harude tribe with him west of the Rhine in the first century B.C.) Harude occupied same territory as the later Angels--that's why it's so important to get a fix on this tribe--were they proto Angels? What if Caesar's brutal victory in 58 B.C. drove the Harude deep into Harz mountains--that would explain later Thuringii I1 and some Saxon I1. And do the Hardsyssel and Hardanger areas of Western Jutland and Western Norway (both conjectured to be descendents of the Harude) carry increased levels of Z58? Help Sparkey! (I'm following the HAR root connection here.)
    Last edited by nordicwarrior; 02-01-13 at 08:10. Reason: punctuation

  11. #11
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,410


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    thats a good point, but I favour the goths originating in pomerania, migrating to sweden and then back again and finally to the black sea.
    That's another possibility. But then their settlements in southern Sweden must have been on a really big scale, perhaps overrunning of displacing the original inhabitants, since the region became know as Götaland to this land (+ the island of Gotland).

  12. #12
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    If Charude/Harude carried Z58 that would explain some West Germanic spread (Arivistus, leader of the Suebi brought the Harude tribe with him west of the Rhine in the first century B.C.) Harude occupied same territory as the later Angels--that's why it's so important to get a fix on this tribe--were they proto Angels? What if Caesar's brutal victory in 58 B.C. drove the Harude deep into Harz mountains--that would explain later Thuringii I1 and some Saxon I1. And do the Hardsyssel and Hardanger areas of Western Jutland and Western Norway (both conjectured to be descendents of the Harude) carry increased levels of Z58? Help Sparkey! (I'm following the HAR root connection here.)
    Doesn't look like Western Norway and Western Jutland have elevated Z58, although Danish samples are limited in general. These maps help with an understanding of Norwegian I1 subclades in particular: L22 map and Z58 map. Looks like Norwegian Z58 is concentrated in Eastern Norway, with Western Norway being exclusively L22 from that sample set.

  13. #13
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    Those were great maps, thanks Sparkey. So much for my Harude I1 Z58 theory (at this point anyway). What the Z58 map does reinforce however is that Suebi were probably the tribe (or people really) responsible for I1's success in Germany, France, Netherlands, really all of Northwestern and North Central Europe.

  14. #14
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The geographic distribution of I1-Z63 is much too wide (England, the Low Countries and West Germany...) to be exclusively Gothic. That's why I did not label it. But I agree that the Goths most probably carried Z63 lineages because this subclade is found in Central and Eastern Europe (especially Poland and Ukraine) as well as in Iberia and South Italy. I would expect to find it also in the southern Balkans (around Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria). So far its absence from the Maghreb is another argument in favour of the Goths, since it was only the Vandals (and the non-Germanic Alans) who invaded North Africa.

    The main counter argument against a Gothic origin of Z63 is its low incidence in Sweden, where the Goths supposedly originated. I would rather believe that Saxons from North Germany integrated the Gothic tribe before they migrated to Poland and Ukraine. That would explain everything.
    After consideration, I see also a Thuringian marker with some old saxon for Z63

    the vandals IIRC split in Spain or before into silingi and hasdingi groups, the alans going more with hasdingi. these vandals brought I from the black sea area, maybe a gothic legacy or vandalian

    The teutonic knights recruited for their baltic tribes campaign only thuringian, saxon and varini people, basically north- northeast people. western "franconian" germans seem to be missing

  15. #15
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    Those were great maps, thanks Sparkey. So much for my Harude I1 Z58 theory (at this point anyway). What the Z58 map does reinforce however is that Suebi were probably the tribe (or people really) responsible for I1's success in Germany, France, Netherlands, really all of Northwestern and North Central Europe.
    did you mean the heruli people?

  16. #16
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    I have the original Heruli as heavily R M269 actually. I think they were forced out of Zealand by I1, and then went on their lengthy journey picking up various y-haplogroups over time. The excavation sites on Zealand are finding quite a bit of Celtic/R1b signature items and surprising little I1 from what I can tell. But I have the Cimbri as heavily R M269 too.

  17. #17
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    I have the original Heruli as heavily R M269 actually. I think they were forced out of Zealand by I1, and then went on their lengthy journey picking up various y-haplogroups over time. The excavation sites on Zealand are finding quite a bit of Celtic/R1b signature items and surprising little I1 from what I can tell. But I have the Cimbri as heavily R M269 too.
    a good idea on the cimbri is to see if the HG you mentioned is also in NE-Italy. the new 2012 languages still has many cimbri pockets of people from the ancient times there

    see my link ...north italian languages in eupedia

  18. #18
    Regular Member St Delcambre's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-12-09
    Posts
    53

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1a3a1c
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U2e1a

    Ethnic group
    French (Nord region) ancestry
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Most of the West Germanic subclades not limited to the British Isles are probably Frankish in origin. Those limited to Germany would be associated with other Germanic tribes like the Bavarians, Thuringians or the Alemanni.
    Maciamo, I'm FAR from an expert but these were my exact thoughts, and as a matter of fact the "Frankish Connection" was going to be a follow question to my first. I came across a map of people who were L573 and noticed most of the results were located in the Northwestern quadrant of Germany, all throughout The Benelux, and Northern France (namely Northeastern), which were essentially the Frankish "hotspots" according to the little bit of history I've read about them.

    I'd be very interested in seeing if there are other knowledgeable researches who also share this prediction.

  19. #19
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,410


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by St Delcambre View Post
    Maciamo, I'm FAR from an expert but these were my exact thoughts, and as a matter of fact the "Frankish Connection" was going to be a follow question to my first. I came across a map of people who were L573 and noticed most of the results were located in the Northwestern quadrant of Germany, all throughout The Benelux, and Northern France (namely Northeastern), which were essentially the Frankish "hotspots" according to the little bit of history I've read about them.

    I'd be very interested in seeing if there are other knowledgeable researches who also share this prediction.
    Yes, it's true that so far, with the limited amount of data available, L573 looks primarily Frankish.

    As for the Saxons, their presence was not limited to North Germany and England either. They were a more important influence than the Franks in coastal Flanders, as suggested by the frequency of place names ending in -gem, ghem, ingem, and inghem between Boulogne-sur-Mer and Brussels via Lille, Bruges and Ghent (see map) mirroring the -gham and ingham in East England. Those names contrast sharply with the more typical Frankish names found in Limburg (e.g. in -hoven and -ingen) and along the Sambre-Meuse axis (Hainaut to Liège), which were also predominantly in -ingen (though Frenchified to -ange, -agne, -gnée, -gny and -gnies).
    Last edited by Maciamo; 04-01-13 at 07:42.

  20. #20
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    After further reviewing the Z58 map-- I going to have to walk back my earlier statement that members of this line would of have had to squeeze through Jutland to make it into the Continent. I think the "center stripe" through Germany to almost Zurich indicates foot movement (probably with at least some boat usage up the rivers), but the coastal flags along the Netherlands and Belgium look like boat landings (Danes and/or Saxons).

  21. #21
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    So maybe the interior flags could be descendents of the ancient Suebi tribe, and the coastal flags could indicate "newer" I1 movements, possibly out of Hedeby.

    I made the critical mistake of forgetting how much this haplogroup liked their boats. The population in Portugal and the Italian coast of course indicate boat settlements, but another mystery is the sparse Z58 in all of France.

    Also, why would Z58 go so far north into coastal Norway and also the Finnish coast?

  22. #22
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    I realize that I have just mirrored alot of what Maciamo said on 1/3/13, except I see much of the coastal Z58 as Dane rather than Saxon.
    Last edited by nordicwarrior; 09-01-13 at 03:20. Reason: change words

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    05-01-13
    Posts
    11

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1a M253+ Z139+

    Ethnic group
    American/English/Frankish
    Country: United States



    Is it possible these Saxons who had influence in Flanders area blended into the Frankish empire or at least some of them? I believe my ancestry to be Frankish, but if they did blend into the Frankish empire, I might originally be Saxon? Any thoughts?

  24. #24
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,410


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by AjBridges View Post
    Is it possible these Saxons who had influence in Flanders area blended into the Frankish empire or at least some of them? I believe my ancestry to be Frankish, but if they did blend into the Frankish empire, I might originally be Saxon? Any thoughts?
    Not only is it possible, I strongly believe it to be the case. Flanders has traditionally been regarded as Frankish, but the toponymy clearly shows that the language spoken at first was Saxon in what would become the County of Flanders. It also makes sense since there were Saxon settlements all along the North Sea/Channel coast as far as Picardy (or perhaps even Normandy, like Dieppe).

  25. #25
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    Hopefully this map from Princeton.edu will transfer over...
    Image: "Viking Magyar and Saracen Invasions of 9th and 10th Centuries "
    Please note the orange Viking/Danish arrows from Jutland into Bremen, Ghent, Quentovic, Rouen area, and Nantes. These invaders were known for their quick assimilation into existing tribes.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •