New phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup I1

So maybe the interior flags could be descendents of the ancient Suebi tribe, and the coastal flags could indicate "newer" I1 movements, possibly out of Hedeby.

I made the critical mistake of forgetting how much this haplogroup liked their boats. The population in Portugal and the Italian coast of course indicate boat settlements, but another mystery is the sparse Z58 in all of France.

Also, why would Z58 go so far north into coastal Norway and also the Finnish coast?
 
I realize that I have just mirrored alot of what Maciamo said on 1/3/13, except I see much of the coastal Z58 as Dane rather than Saxon.
 
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Is it possible these Saxons who had influence in Flanders area blended into the Frankish empire or at least some of them? I believe my ancestry to be Frankish, but if they did blend into the Frankish empire, I might originally be Saxon? Any thoughts?
 
AjBridges said:
Is it possible these Saxons who had influence in Flanders area blended into the Frankish empire or at least some of them? I believe my ancestry to be Frankish, but if they did blend into the Frankish empire, I might originally be Saxon? Any thoughts?
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Not only is it possible, I strongly believe it to be the case. Flanders has traditionally been regarded as Frankish, but the toponymy clearly shows that the language spoken at first was Saxon in what would become the County of Flanders. It also makes sense since there were Saxon settlements all along the North Sea/Channel coast as far as Picardy (or perhaps even Normandy, like Dieppe).
 
Hopefully this map from Princeton.edu will transfer over...
Image: "Viking Magyar and Saracen Invasions of 9th and 10th Centuries "
Please note the orange Viking/Danish arrows from Jutland into Bremen, Ghent, Quentovic, Rouen area, and Nantes. These invaders were known for their quick assimilation into existing tribes.
 
getfile.php


Also, it's interesting to see how far West the Magyars advanced, this probably had a large influence on the relocation of Suebi I1.
 
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I can't get it to transfer. Google or look for--Viking, Magyar, and Saracen Invasions in 9th and 10th Century Europe. Neat map.
 
nordicwarrior said:
I can't get it to transfer. Google or look for--Viking, Magyar, and Saracen Invasions in 9th and 10th Century Europe. Neat map.
Click to expand...

I have edited your post above. You should click on the 'Insert Image' icon (third from the right in Quick Reply mode) and paste your URL there.
 
Due to the postulation of Saxon settlement and participation in the Frankish empire it makes me wonder of their participation In the Carolingian empire. To read about the Arnulflings they seem to be more German?
 
AjBridges said:
Due to the postulation of Saxon settlement and participation in the Frankish empire it makes me wonder of their participation In the Carolingian empire. To read about the Arnulflings they seem to be more German?
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The Saxons of Flanders were mostly peasants and fishermen. The Frankish nobility was established in what is now Wallonia, namely in Tournai (original Merovingian capital) and Liège/Herstal (original Carolingian capital). Since noble titles were conferred almost exclusively to relatives and close friends at least until the 9th century, my guess is that the people who had the greatest genetic impact on the rest of Europe were this Frankish nobility, who was given land throughout the empire and married foreign nobles all around Europe. Saxon peasants stayed in Flanders only became the ancestors of present-day population of Nord-Pas-de-Calais and the western part of what is now called Flanders (which includes more Frankish territories like Brabant and Limburg).
 
Maciamo, thank you for indulging me. I understand your point about the Saxon in Flanders, but then if you were not noble there wasn't else much to do but be a peasant, fisherman or farmer. From my understanding even soldiers were farmers back then and would not be called if it was planting or harvesting season.My point is that there was some integration, even if by nobles as you say. I believe it is important to note that the kingdoms were split for a good time. (Ottonian dynasty) (Arnulf of Carinthia).Sorry, can't leave links yet. Also I am by no means an expert, yet I enjoy participating from what I have studied.
 
There's a fantastic map on wikimedia titled "The Roman Empire in A.D. 125". It color codes linguistic groups and includes the locations of mines. I personally don't like "stopping" at the Franks as a genetic tribe because it doesn't appear on the oldest maps. I try to view the I-J, I, I1 as a genetic flow through history, and the Franks seem like they are a grouping of older tribes folded into a newer identity (maybe caused by invaders from the east?) Please take a look at that Roman Empire map and see if what I'm talking about with the Suebi getting pushed westward makes sense. On wikimedia you can blow up the map for much greater detail.(I can say that because I think I'm either Angle, Saxon, Danish, or Frankish--need to get subclades tested)
 
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AjBridges said:
Maciamo, thank you for indulging me. I understand your point about the Saxon in Flanders, but then if you were not noble there wasn't else much to do but be a peasant, fisherman or farmer. From my understanding even soldiers were farmers back then and would not be called if it was planting or harvesting season.
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Exactly, Germanic and Slavic tribes back than consisted of farmers doubling as warriors with hereditary leadership (who became nobilities during feudalism). That was in contrast with Roman career soldiers who dominated Europe for few hundred of years.
 
Nordicwarrior, I see your point about the Franks. Even the Suebis were known to be a group of many tribes that shared some commonalities. Nice map. I'm not so sure that I am of the opinion the Suebis were driven out of Prussia by the Huns. Another argument is that these western migrations filled the vacuum after the Roman Empire moved out of the area. The Suebis we know were actually invited to settle in Gaul by the Sequani. Other Germanic tribes such as the Visigoths and the Burgundians were allocated lands by the Roman Empire. These allocations included agricultural lands along with the roman slaves to work the land. The purpose of these allocations of lands is thought to stabilize Gaul and Spain. Some of these lands were vacated 3rd century so the Romans felt that better have some tax paid than no tax. So, LeBrok not only were these part time soldiers, farmers, but many of them became significant agricultural estate landowners who they themselves received taxes from Gallo-Romans living in Gaul.
 
NordicWarrior, I trace my paternal line back to Saint Arnulf of Metz, so I'm comfortable saying Frankish for now, but yet still would like to know more, especially about the Arnulflings and earlier Germanic tribes and where they fit into the picture.Here is another map that is interesting. Well I can't leave a link but google "map Gallia tribe towns."
 
Crap, I just noticed you were asking about the Magyars, it's possible but I haven't studied the Magyar invasion yet so really can't answer.
 
I agree AJ, I think the Suebi were probably a mixed bag y-haplogroupwise, but I figure they had a healthy bit of I1. What has drawn me to that tribe is the fact that they show up on the earliest of maps. I did know about Sequani's invitation, but the Germanic tribes suffered such a severe thrashing by the Romans--I don't know if much I1 would have been left behind (in that wave anyway). The Celts would have popped right back in...Also that is cool that you can get so far back with a specific person in history. I've gotten to the 1700's using family information, but I'm still in America at this point. Hopefully this site and familytreedna will get me back to Europe.
 
By going off of a matching surname with a goodly amount of hits on the 37 marker test, I'm going to infer a Z-60 and Z-140 subclade. This would be I1a3a1a. Now I need to pry my wallet open and verify for certain.
 
You would be in good company in the Z140 subclade. I am in 3B myself. When looking at these clades and the different sizes of them it makes me wonder if the size of the clades as described by Ken Nordvedt AS* etc.. Also tells as to which Germanic tribes they may associate with? I'll leave it for someone to try and answer IF the question can be understood? I haven't had my coffee yet but am about to. Cheers.
 
nordicwarrior said:
Hopefully this map from Princeton.edu will transfer over... Image: "Viking Magyar and Saracen Invasions of 9th and 10th Centuries " Please note the orange Viking/Danish arrows from Jutland into Bremen, Ghent, Quentovic, Rouen area, and Nantes. These invaders were known for their quick assimilation into existing tribes.
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I 'm not sure at all Danes Vikings assimilated and were so welcomed in all the places they sacked and ruled... there are big differences according to places, I suppose (they assimilated sometimes, becoming the ruling class and marrying local wives, it 's true, but not everywhere)
 
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