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Great update.
I have a question for Maciamo and/or Sparkey:
Is the I1a3 sublcade and it's offshoots part of the older "Anglo-Saxon generic" grouping? I apologize if my question is poorly worded I'm just trying to get an understanding of what group I1a3 is associated with as it's where I fall, I1a3a1c to be exact.
Great update.
I have a question for Maciamo and/or Sparkey:
Is the I1a3 sublcade and it's offshoots part of the older "Anglo-Saxon generic" grouping? I apologize if my question is poorly worded I'm just trying to get an understanding of what group I1a3 is associated with as it's where I fall, I1a3a1c to be exact.
Is the Z63 group the vistula gothic and crimean gothic as stated by KN in march 2012?
The geographic distribution of I1-Z63 is much too wide (England, the Low Countries and West Germany...) to be exclusively Gothic. That's why I did not label it. But I agree that the Goths most probably carried Z63 lineages because this subclade is found in Central and Eastern Europe (especially Poland and Ukraine) as well as in Iberia and South Italy. I would expect to find it also in the southern Balkans (around Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria). So far its absence from the Maghreb is another argument in favour of the Goths, since it was only the Vandals (and the non-Germanic Alans) who invaded North Africa.
The main counter argument against a Gothic origin of Z63 is its low incidence in Sweden, where the Goths supposedly originated. I would rather believe that Saxons from North Germany integrated the Gothic tribe before they migrated to Poland and Ukraine. That would explain everything.
thats a good point, but I favour the goths originating in pomerania, migrating to sweden and then back again and finally to the black sea.
If Charude/Harude carried Z58 that would explain some West Germanic spread (Arivistus, leader of the Suebi brought the Harude tribe with him west of the Rhine in the first century B.C.) Harude occupied same territory as the later Angels--that's why it's so important to get a fix on this tribe--were they proto Angels? What if Caesar's brutal victory in 58 B.C. drove the Harude deep into Harz mountains--that would explain later Thuringii I1 and some Saxon I1. And do the Hardsyssel and Hardanger areas of Western Jutland and Western Norway (both conjectured to be descendents of the Harude) carry increased levels of Z58? Help Sparkey! (I'm following the HAR root connection here.)
The geographic distribution of I1-Z63 is much too wide (England, the Low Countries and West Germany...) to be exclusively Gothic. That's why I did not label it. But I agree that the Goths most probably carried Z63 lineages because this subclade is found in Central and Eastern Europe (especially Poland and Ukraine) as well as in Iberia and South Italy. I would expect to find it also in the southern Balkans (around Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria). So far its absence from the Maghreb is another argument in favour of the Goths, since it was only the Vandals (and the non-Germanic Alans) who invaded North Africa.
The main counter argument against a Gothic origin of Z63 is its low incidence in Sweden, where the Goths supposedly originated. I would rather believe that Saxons from North Germany integrated the Gothic tribe before they migrated to Poland and Ukraine. That would explain everything.
Those were great maps, thanks Sparkey. So much for my Harude I1 Z58 theory (at this point anyway). What the Z58 map does reinforce however is that Suebi were probably the tribe (or people really) responsible for I1's success in Germany, France, Netherlands, really all of Northwestern and North Central Europe.
I have the original Heruli as heavily R M269 actually. I think they were forced out of Zealand by I1, and then went on their lengthy journey picking up various y-haplogroups over time. The excavation sites on Zealand are finding quite a bit of Celtic/R1b signature items and surprising little I1 from what I can tell. But I have the Cimbri as heavily R M269 too.
Most of the West Germanic subclades not limited to the British Isles are probably Frankish in origin. Those limited to Germany would be associated with other Germanic tribes like the Bavarians, Thuringians or the Alemanni.
Maciamo, I'm FAR from an expert but these were my exact thoughts, and as a matter of fact the "Frankish Connection" was going to be a follow question to my first. I came across a map of people who were L573 and noticed most of the results were located in the Northwestern quadrant of Germany, all throughout The Benelux, and Northern France (namely Northeastern), which were essentially the Frankish "hotspots" according to the little bit of history I've read about them.
I'd be very interested in seeing if there are other knowledgeable researches who also share this prediction.
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