New phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup I1

[Balder]

An old text on Gaets/Jutes/Goths 'common' origin
http://www.tidsskrift.dk/index.php/historisktidsskrift/article/view/31883/61494

 

[Balder]

historians are equally divided in respect to............ if the Geats are the Goths.....the Geats seem to have concentrated in invading jutland and future Frisian lands on the north sea. These south swedish Geats, maybe where germanic , but.....
The gu(a)ts are purely on gotland.

I am going with the historians who say goths where originally Baltic people who became linguistically Germanic over time due to the smallish "spit" of water called the Baltic sea........if the Phoenicians can sail from the levant to Spain in around 2000BC , then surely the Baltic people could sail ALL around the Baltic sea, which is only a quarter of the size of the Med.

In the end we already know the Germanic people claimed falsely the prussians as germans, there is all likelihood they did the same with the Goths

Well. Goths were core Germanic, not assimilated one.

According to Pliny in his Natural History, the Greek explorer explored northern/northwestern Europe on a sailing expedition in the 4th century BC. He got as far as present-day Denmark/Southern Sweden and is the first person to have written about the Germanic tribes in the literate, historical record. One of the tribes he met there was called the Gutones- literally the Goths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas

 

[Nobody1]

Wulfila Bible confirms that the Goths (Ostrogoths) were Germanic.
But neither Wulfila nor Pytheas nor Tacitus confirm the Goths to be from modern day Sweden or related to the Geats.

Joseph Bosworth - A Dictionary of the Anglo-Saxon Language (1838)
"Strabo* assures us, that Pytheas, about 325 before Christ, undertook a voyage to explore the amber coasts in the Baltic. He sailed to Thüle, probably Tellemark on the west borders of Norway, then turned southward and passed the cape of Jutland, and proceeded eastward along the coasts of the Guttones and Teutones. If credit be given to this account of Pytheas, the Goths, at this early period, had extended far over Europe, and had arrived on the coast of the Baltic."
"We know, upon the better authority of Tacitus, who wrote with great precision towards the end of the first century in the christian era, that in his time the Goths were near the mouth of the Vistula."

It was Jordanes 'Getica' (551 AD) that linked the Goths to Scandza and the Geats. But all other classical writers before him from Pytheas to Tacitus clearly link the Goths to the Baltic region between Oder and Vistula. Which explains why German is closer to Gothic than any Scandinavian language.

Encyclopaedia Britannica Vol.16
The modern German, a language spoken in a far greater extent than any other of modern Europe, resembles the Gothic Gospels more than the present Danish, Norwegian, or Swedish;

Gothic lords prayer; Vaterunser from the Codex Argenteus 6th cen. AD Ostrogothic Ravenna N. Italy.

http://languageserver.uni-graz.at/ls/img?id=000000004249

 

[zanipolo]

Well. Goths were core Germanic, not assimilated one.

According to Pliny in his Natural History, the Greek explorer explored northern/northwestern Europe on a sailing expedition in the 4th century BC. He got as far as present-day Denmark/Southern Sweden and is the first person to have written about the Germanic tribes in the literate, historical record. One of the tribes he met there was called the Gutones- literally the Goths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas

IIRC, Pytheas states the goths where 660 stradi ( a term for distance ) from dannish area on the coast next to a river so basically it places them on the lower vistula river where it meets the sea...and pliny confirms this area and calls them gutones 300 years later.

 

[zanipolo]

Wulfila Bible confirms that the Goths (Ostrogoths) were Germanic.
But neither Wulfila nor Pytheas nor Tacitus confirm the Goths to be from modern day Sweden or related to the Geats.

Joseph Bosworth - A Dictionary of the Anglo-Saxon Language (1838)
"Strabo* assures us, that Pytheas, about 325 before Christ, undertook a voyage to explore the amber coasts in the Baltic. He sailed to Thüle, probably Tellemark on the west borders of Norway, then turned southward and passed the cape of Jutland, and proceeded eastward along the coasts of the Guttones and Teutones. If credit be given to this account of Pytheas, the Goths, at this early period, had extended far over Europe, and had arrived on the coast of the Baltic."
"We know, upon the better authority of Tacitus, who wrote with great precision towards the end of the first century in the christian era, that in his time the Goths were near the mouth of the Vistula."

It was Jordanes 'Getica' (551 AD) that linked the Goths to Scandza and the Geats. But all other classical writers before him from Pytheas to Tacitus clearly link the Goths to the Baltic region between Oder and Vistula. Which explains why German is closer to Gothic than any Scandinavian language.

Encyclopaedia Britannica Vol.16
The modern German, a language spoken in a far greater extent than any other of modern Europe, resembles the Gothic Gospels more than the present Danish, Norwegian, or Swedish;

Gothic lords prayer; Vaterunser from the Codex Argenteus 6th cen. AD Ostrogothic Ravenna N. Italy.

http://languageserver.uni-graz.at/ls/img?id=000000004249

yes and old nordic and old english texts always indicated that the Goths and the Geats where not the same people

 

[Balder]

so before knowing more (intermediary forms of proved same origin) in don't accept the link Goth/God or Gud with Jut, but the link Jut/Geat is more suitable even if my knowledge there is too scarce

I managed to find a source in English on:

JUTES & "THE JUTISH HYPOTHESIS" IUTI, IUTAE, GOTHS, GUDAI, GETAE EUCII, ÉOTENAS, JOTUNS, ÉOTAS, IÓTAS, IÚTAN, GÉATAS, GAUTIR, GUTAR, GÖTAR, EUDOESES,
http://www.protogermanic.com/2011/09/jutes-jutish-hypothesis-iuti-iutae.html

 

[Balder]

IIRC, Pytheas states the goths where 660 stradi ( a term for distance ) from dannish area on the coast next to a river so basically it places them on the lower vistula river where it meets the sea...and pliny confirms this area and calls them gutones 300 years later.

Well Pytheas' description of where the Teutones and Guttones (neighbors) lived agrees with Jutland and its islands to the East; the culture of millet in the north, and of wheat in the south, and the abundance of honey: there is also, about a degree to the north of the latitude of 55 deg. 34' a part of the coast still denominated Thyland.

Also, the account of Pytheas, of the sea, air, and earth, seemed to be confounded in one element, is supposed by Malte Brun to allude to the sandy downs of Jutland, whose hills shift with the wind; the marshes, covered with a crust of sand, concealing from the traveller the gulf beneath, and the fogs of a peculiarly dense nature which frequently occur.

And the famous reference of dangerous The Scandiae islands of Greek and Roman antiquity is just the region of southern Sweden, along the Danish Islands between Jutland, across the Strait of Øresund. The description fit perfectly here.

The Scandiae islands of antiquity is possibly reference to Skanör med Falsterbo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanör-Falsterbo

The peninsula forms the southwesternmost tip of the Scandinavian Peninsula. It marks the border between the Baltic Sea and the Øresund, the sound that separates the Danish island Zealand from the southern Swedish province of Scania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia#Etymology

The names Scania and Scandinavia are considered to have the same etymology and the southernmost tip of what is today Sweden was called Scania by the Romans. The name is possibly derived from the Germanic root *Skaðin-awjo, which appears in Old Norse as Skáney. According to some scholars, the Germanic stem can be reconstructed as *Skaðan- meaning "danger" or "damage" (English scathing, German Schaden, Swedish skada). Skanör in Scania, with its long Falsterbo reef, has the same stem (skan) combined with -ör, which means "sandbanks".

 

[Balder]

In relation to the reference of Baltia Islands where the Guttones of Pytheas lived near of Teutones in Jutland (Thyland), is also uncertain and full of speculations but the most accepted is that:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:entry=baltia-geo

Yet each is found in Pytheas. Hence the likelihood of two names to the same locality, and the confusion arising therefrom. Again, the fact of the name being strange to the present Germans makes the assumption of an erroneous application of it all the more likely.

Name for name, nothing represents the ancient Baltia so closely as the Great and the Little Belts between the Danish isles and Jutland. But these are the names of straits of water, not of islands of land. Yet the present writer believes that the Baltia of Pytheas was the island of Fyen or Sealand (one or both), and that the name Baltia is retained in that of the waters that bound them.

He would not, however, believe this, if there had been no change in language. Had that been uniform from the beginning, the confusion which he assumes would have been illegitimate.

Another speculation connects itself with the root Balt--. In the article AVARI, a principle which will bear a wide application has been suggested. It is as follows: when the name of a non-historical individual coincides with that of an historical population (or locality), the individual is to be considered as an eponymus.

Now, the legends of the country of the Getae connected them with the Guttones of the Baltic; indeed, when the name Goth became prominent, the original seat of the stock was laid on that sea, sometimes on the southern coast in the amber-country, sometimes as far north as Scandinavia.

More than this, the two royal lines were those of the Balt-ungs (Baltidae), and the Amal-ungs(Amalidae). For a Balt, or an Amal, as real personages, we look in vain. Populations, however, to which they were Eponymi, we find in the two localities Baltia and Abalus--associated localities in the accredited mother-country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltia


The Guttones (Goths) of Pytheas were from Denmark (possibly the Islands) close to their neighbors Teutones of Jutland (Thyland of Pyheas). Both could have been the same people, regional differences and lease only.

However, the origin of the Goths is still uncertain, I don't dismiss a 'Swedish origin' at all. My guess is that the truth lies somewhere in between Southern Sweden, Denmark and Northern Germany.

Those Germanic confederations of antiquity did not have the concept of ethnicities that we have today. They pretty much were the product of the same origin - the Nordic Bronze age and Jastorf culture. Fair were moving, separating it into confederations and/or adopting local identity, or cheftain name, etc.

In somehow maintaining the same linguistic base emerged within the proto-Germanic (just take a look at the Grimm's law). Hence the mix up of confederation names and origins.

 

[MOESAN]

I was referring to the proto-Germanic 'dialect' continuum emerged during Late-Nordic Bronze age and early Jastorf period.

The Swedish language is derived from dǫnsk tunga/dansk tunga ("Danish tongue").
http://www.sweden.se/upload/Sweden_se/otherlanguages/factsheets/SI/Svenska_spraket.pdf

A source in English:
http://www.academia.edu/1659454/The_Danish_Tongue_and_Scandinavian_Identity


Götar (Gaets), Goths and Jutes being the same people is the most accepted theory among modern Scandinavians historians , especially among Danes.

And academic Danish article on:
http://www.nomos-dk.dk/folket/olrik2.html

i'll look at your academic article about this tribes names correlation, thanks for that! (I give my thoughts without thinking they were a Bible extract!)
but concerning swedish = danish language origin, my selfmade knowledge of languages tell me it is an oversimplification - all of these languages are from old nordic germanic languages and show some reasonable diverging evolutions where swedish and norwegian dialects stayed closer one to another than to danish modern dialects and language - the prestige of some stage of sanish "tongue" history could have influenced swedish (as bokmaal of Norway) but as a whole the non-continental dialects of germanic are still closer within them except the Skane and surrounding southern swedish dialects which keep the marks of Denmark domination - I can mistake, it 's true...

 

[Balder]

i'll look at your academic article about this tribes names correlation, thanks for that! (I give my thoughts without thinking they were a Bible extract!)

As I said, I don't necessarily agree in all with the Swedish origin for the Goths, nor do I dismiss it. As for the Goths, seeing they spoke an old Germanic language, so they did originate from the proto-Germanic urheimat e.g. South-Scandinavia/Jutland /Northern Germany (Nordic Bronze age to iron age Jastorf culture).

Also, as I said above, Gautr, Gaut, Gauti, Guti, Gothus and Geat are name forms based on the same Proto-Germanic root, *ǥud*.

Gautr, Gauti, Guti, Gothus and Geat are name forms based on the same Proto-Germanic root, *ǥuđ- (see God). Gapt is generally considered to be a corruption of Gaut.
The names may represent the eponymous founder of an early tribe ancestral to the Gautar (Geats), Gutans (Goths) and Gutes (Gotlanders).
Gaut was one of Odin's names and the name forms are thought to be echoes of an ancient ancestry tradition among Germanic tribes, such as that of Yngvi, Freyr and the Ingaevones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaut
Andersson, Thorsten. (1996) "Göter, goter, gutar" in Journal Namn och Bygd, Uppsala.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0009&L=gothic-l&D=0&P=8323

Just a close evident common linguistic and 'tribal' designations of both Geats, Gutes (and their two homelands Götaland and Gotland) and Goths but also in place-names such as Göta Älv/Götaälven (älven = the river) in Sweden as of all Jordanes classical believe.

My guess is that the 'ethnos' origin of them lies somewhere in between, that is some kind of 'Swedish origin' but that much was happening then. And since they spoke an old Germanic language, they came from somewhere into the area of the proto-Germanic language and culture i.e. Scandinavia, Jutland and Northern Germany, most likely near some of the places connected to their name.

Another East Germanic tribe -the Burgundians- also have several place names in Scandinavia connected to them such as Burgundarholm (old Norse name for the island of Bornholm) or Borgund in Norway (both likely derived from borg = castle).

Several different ancient Germanic tribes did not rename both themselves, their homeland, rivers and whatnot after Roman books they could hardly read, really far fetched. Rather they were generally the same 'core' northern Iron age people of whom named themselves into confederations after a river, a cheftain, or a 'montain', a tree, a beach, whatever they lived nearby, hence why we have so many "goths" or "burgunds" and why they share an etymological origin in the same word.

The fact is the Goths from Roman historical literature were an old Iron Age, unquestionable, Germanic tribe, its origin in mainland Scandinavia (Sweden), currently debated. It would not be unlikely that their ethnogenesis, meant the origin of Proto-Germanic root word, *ǥud* can still be traced back to some place in Jutland or Holsten (Northern Germany) and from there spread as happened during all Iron Age Germanic culture.

And that's why the whole origin of the Goths originated in Sweden is debated in somehow.

Only the time, recent studies and genetic testing will tell.

but concerning swedish = danish language origin, my selfmade knowledge of languages tell me it is an oversimplification - all of these languages are from old nordic germanic languages and show some reasonable diverging evolutions where swedish and norwegian dialects stayed closer one to another than to danish modern dialects and language - the prestige of some stage of sanish "tongue" history could have influenced swedish (as bokmaal of Norway) but as a whole the non-continental dialects of germanic are still closer within them except the Skane and surrounding southern swedish dialects which keep the marks of Denmark domination - I can mistake, it 's true...

Yes, but the separation began at the end of the Viking age, late medieval era. That is, 1000 years ago. Already the proto-Germanic 'dialect' continuum emerged during Late-Nordic Bronze age and early Jastorf period existed to 2000-2500 years ago. Hence my argument of a 'common' origin between Jutes, Gaets and Goths. This debate in recent years has become common among Swedish and Danish historians.

Scania, and the rest of Southern Sweden tips (where I come from), really have a modern close Danish intonation and linguistic semantic for obvious historical reasons of that the region until the 17th century, was the core part Eastern of old Danish kingdom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skåneland

 

[Balder]

Could have been the 'first' Goths originated on the island of Fyn (Funen) in Denmark?

That route between central-southern Sweden and the Danish island of Fyn was already known to 3000 years ago, before of the solidification (ethogenesis) of I.E Germanic 'culture' into the area.

Ingemar Nordgren "Göter-källan" (the origin of the goths).

Unfortunately his remarks resulted in an unfair discussion, where the basic idea of Ingemar got lost. As his idea gives an answer to the discussion about the names of Gauts, I will bring it up again.

According to Ingemar the Gauts were people who believed their kings to descend from the warrior god Gaut. Their ancestors in Scandinavia mostly were Ingviones - farmers worshipping the old fertility god Ing. As a consequence the Gauts was a religios group - not a single people. Therefore we have Gauti, Geats, Gauthigothi, Goeter, Guter and maybee Juter. Most of them were different tribes or people.

They knew each other from the trade routes on the Baltic Sea and Kattegat, where Gotland was as a trade center connected to the Bernstein Route. When some of them had to leave Scandinavia they first settled near the mouth of Wistula, where some of the local tribes maybe already were Gauts. At last a group of Gauts followed the trade route to the Black Sea where they became known as the Goths. This group may have consisted of several tribes from Scandinavia and the south-eastern shores of the Baltic Sea.

http://www.svavarsson.is/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Herular.pdf

 

[Grubbe]

There is a new revision of the I1 tree again: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

So now the tree here http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml is out of date.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Using the most recent ISOGG revisions that Grubbe linked plus the continually updated I1 SNP maps on FTDNA it should be possible to start connecting some dots. I've already noticed some thought provoking trends. Interested to see what some other folks have to say here...

 

[tumi]

Do you mean angles or just saxons as i live in a traditionally anglian area of england and ing (people) ham (hamlet) are common place names here in mercia england?
I apologise this question refers to maciamos remarks about flanders with saxon place names.