New phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup I1

[Maciamo]

Here is the latest phylogeny of I1 subclades according to ISOGG and FTDNA.

 

[St Delcambre]

Great update.

I have a question for Maciamo and/or Sparkey:

Is the I1a3 sublcade and it's offshoots part of the older "Anglo-Saxon generic" grouping? I apologize if my question is poorly worded I'm just trying to get an understanding of what group I1a3 is associated with as it's where I fall, I1a3a1c to be exact.

 

[sparkey]

Great update.

I have a question for Maciamo and/or Sparkey:

Is the I1a3 sublcade and it's offshoots part of the older "Anglo-Saxon generic" grouping? I apologize if my question is poorly worded I'm just trying to get an understanding of what group I1a3 is associated with as it's where I fall, I1a3a1c to be exact.

Basically, I1-AS ended up being defined by I1-Z58, with a few exceptions. Some weirder I1-AS, including some of which had ended up in the big "AS-generic" bag, turned out to be outliers outside of I1-Z58, and some weirder "non-AS" haplotypes ended up in I1-Z58. But as a whole, the correlation is pretty good. See Nordtvedt's Z58 tree.

 

[zanipolo]

Is the Z63 group the vistula gothic and crimean gothic as stated by KN in march 2012?

 

[Maciamo]

Great update.

I have a question for Maciamo and/or Sparkey:

Is the I1a3 sublcade and it's offshoots part of the older "Anglo-Saxon generic" grouping? I apologize if my question is poorly worded I'm just trying to get an understanding of what group I1a3 is associated with as it's where I fall, I1a3a1c to be exact.

I personally don't like the naming of haplotypes as "Anglo-Saxon" when their geographic range is pan-Germanic or Non-Nordic-Germanic. I use the label 'West Germanic' for all Germanic peoples found in Britain, the Low Countries, France and Germany. That also includes southern offshoots like the Lombards in Italy. Most of the West Germanic subclades not limited to the British Isles are probably Frankish in origin. Those limited to Germany would be associated with other Germanic tribes like the Bavarians, Thuringians or the Alemanni.

 

[Maciamo]

Is the Z63 group the vistula gothic and crimean gothic as stated by KN in march 2012?

The geographic distribution of I1-Z63 is much too wide (England, the Low Countries and West Germany...) to be exclusively Gothic. That's why I did not label it. But I agree that the Goths most probably carried Z63 lineages because this subclade is found in Central and Eastern Europe (especially Poland and Ukraine) as well as in Iberia and South Italy. I would expect to find it also in the southern Balkans (around Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria). So far its absence from the Maghreb is another argument in favour of the Goths, since it was only the Vandals (and the non-Germanic Alans) who invaded North Africa.

The main counter argument against a Gothic origin of Z63 is its low incidence in Sweden, where the Goths supposedly originated. I would rather believe that Saxons from North Germany integrated the Gothic tribe before they migrated to Poland and Ukraine. That would explain everything.

 

[zanipolo]

The geographic distribution of I1-Z63 is much too wide (England, the Low Countries and West Germany...) to be exclusively Gothic. That's why I did not label it. But I agree that the Goths most probably carried Z63 lineages because this subclade is found in Central and Eastern Europe (especially Poland and Ukraine) as well as in Iberia and South Italy. I would expect to find it also in the southern Balkans (around Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria). So far its absence from the Maghreb is another argument in favour of the Goths, since it was only the Vandals (and the non-Germanic Alans) who invaded North Africa.

The main counter argument against a Gothic origin of Z63 is its low incidence in Sweden, where the Goths supposedly originated. I would rather believe that Saxons from North Germany integrated the Gothic tribe before they migrated to Poland and Ukraine. That would explain everything.

thats a good point, but I favour the goths originating in pomerania, migrating to sweden and then back again and finally to the black sea.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Reply

"Most of the West Germanic subclades not limited to the British Isles are probably Frankish in origin. Those limited to Germany would be associated with other Germanic tribes like the Bavarians, Thuringians, or the Alemanii."

Well I guess it depends on what time frame we are talking about (assuming we are specifically speaking of I1 carriers here)...It looks like they all squeezed through the base of Jutland into Northern Germany at some point based on the population maps. Were they all Angles at some earlier point, or just pass through members of Northern tribes?

I agree with your theory on Z 63 pollinating the Goths before they migrated into Poland/Ukraine.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Maciamo,
I had I1 being a large percentage of the ancient Charude tribe at one point (using basic verbage, trade routes, etc.) but everything I came up with could have applied equally to I2 or I1. I think the pitch resin/Harz mountain/Baltic vessels connection could have had huge impacts on early I1 movement while also explaining the strange donut hole in R1b around the Harz. Are there excavations planned in the bog areas of these mountains? That might explain alot...

 

[nordicwarrior]

If Charude/Harude carried Z58 that would explain some West Germanic spread (Arivistus, leader of the Suebi brought the Harude tribe with him west of the Rhine in the first century B.C.) Harude occupied same territory as the later Angels--that's why it's so important to get a fix on this tribe--were they proto Angels? What if Caesar's brutal victory in 58 B.C. drove the Harude deep into Harz mountains--that would explain later Thuringii I1 and some Saxon I1. And do the Hardsyssel and Hardanger areas of Western Jutland and Western Norway (both conjectured to be descendents of the Harude) carry increased levels of Z58? Help Sparkey! (I'm following the HAR root connection here.)

 

[Maciamo]

thats a good point, but I favour the goths originating in pomerania, migrating to sweden and then back again and finally to the black sea.

That's another possibility. But then their settlements in southern Sweden must have been on a really big scale, perhaps overrunning of displacing the original inhabitants, since the region became know as Götaland to this land (+ the island of Gotland).

 

[sparkey]

If Charude/Harude carried Z58 that would explain some West Germanic spread (Arivistus, leader of the Suebi brought the Harude tribe with him west of the Rhine in the first century B.C.) Harude occupied same territory as the later Angels--that's why it's so important to get a fix on this tribe--were they proto Angels? What if Caesar's brutal victory in 58 B.C. drove the Harude deep into Harz mountains--that would explain later Thuringii I1 and some Saxon I1. And do the Hardsyssel and Hardanger areas of Western Jutland and Western Norway (both conjectured to be descendents of the Harude) carry increased levels of Z58? Help Sparkey! (I'm following the HAR root connection here.)

Doesn't look like Western Norway and Western Jutland have elevated Z58, although Danish samples are limited in general. These maps help with an understanding of Norwegian I1 subclades in particular: L22 map and Z58 map. Looks like Norwegian Z58 is concentrated in Eastern Norway, with Western Norway being exclusively L22 from that sample set.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Those were great maps, thanks Sparkey. So much for my Harude I1 Z58 theory (at this point anyway). What the Z58 map does reinforce however is that Suebi were probably the tribe (or people really) responsible for I1's success in Germany, France, Netherlands, really all of Northwestern and North Central Europe.

 

[zanipolo]

The geographic distribution of I1-Z63 is much too wide (England, the Low Countries and West Germany...) to be exclusively Gothic. That's why I did not label it. But I agree that the Goths most probably carried Z63 lineages because this subclade is found in Central and Eastern Europe (especially Poland and Ukraine) as well as in Iberia and South Italy. I would expect to find it also in the southern Balkans (around Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria). So far its absence from the Maghreb is another argument in favour of the Goths, since it was only the Vandals (and the non-Germanic Alans) who invaded North Africa.

The main counter argument against a Gothic origin of Z63 is its low incidence in Sweden, where the Goths supposedly originated. I would rather believe that Saxons from North Germany integrated the Gothic tribe before they migrated to Poland and Ukraine. That would explain everything.

After consideration, I see also a Thuringian marker with some old saxon for Z63

the vandals IIRC split in Spain or before into silingi and hasdingi groups, the alans going more with hasdingi. these vandals brought I from the black sea area, maybe a gothic legacy or vandalian

The teutonic knights recruited for their baltic tribes campaign only thuringian, saxon and varini people, basically north- northeast people. western "franconian" germans seem to be missing

 

[zanipolo]

Those were great maps, thanks Sparkey. So much for my Harude I1 Z58 theory (at this point anyway). What the Z58 map does reinforce however is that Suebi were probably the tribe (or people really) responsible for I1's success in Germany, France, Netherlands, really all of Northwestern and North Central Europe.

did you mean the heruli people?

 

[nordicwarrior]

I have the original Heruli as heavily R M269 actually. I think they were forced out of Zealand by I1, and then went on their lengthy journey picking up various y-haplogroups over time. The excavation sites on Zealand are finding quite a bit of Celtic/R1b signature items and surprising little I1 from what I can tell. But I have the Cimbri as heavily R M269 too.

 

[zanipolo]

I have the original Heruli as heavily R M269 actually. I think they were forced out of Zealand by I1, and then went on their lengthy journey picking up various y-haplogroups over time. The excavation sites on Zealand are finding quite a bit of Celtic/R1b signature items and surprising little I1 from what I can tell. But I have the Cimbri as heavily R M269 too.

a good idea on the cimbri is to see if the HG you mentioned is also in NE-Italy. the new 2012 languages still has many cimbri pockets of people from the ancient times there

see my link ...north italian languages in eupedia

 

[St Delcambre]

Most of the West Germanic subclades not limited to the British Isles are probably Frankish in origin. Those limited to Germany would be associated with other Germanic tribes like the Bavarians, Thuringians or the Alemanni.

Maciamo, I'm FAR from an expert but these were my exact thoughts, and as a matter of fact the "Frankish Connection" was going to be a follow question to my first. I came across a map of people who were L573 and noticed most of the results were located in the Northwestern quadrant of Germany, all throughout The Benelux, and Northern France (namely Northeastern), which were essentially the Frankish "hotspots" according to the little bit of history I've read about them.

I'd be very interested in seeing if there are other knowledgeable researches who also share this prediction.

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, I'm FAR from an expert but these were my exact thoughts, and as a matter of fact the "Frankish Connection" was going to be a follow question to my first. I came across a map of people who were L573 and noticed most of the results were located in the Northwestern quadrant of Germany, all throughout The Benelux, and Northern France (namely Northeastern), which were essentially the Frankish "hotspots" according to the little bit of history I've read about them.

I'd be very interested in seeing if there are other knowledgeable researches who also share this prediction.

Yes, it's true that so far, with the limited amount of data available, L573 looks primarily Frankish.

As for the Saxons, their presence was not limited to North Germany and England either. They were a more important influence than the Franks in coastal Flanders, as suggested by the frequency of place names ending in -gem, ghem, ingem, and inghem between Boulogne-sur-Mer and Brussels via Lille, Bruges and Ghent (see map) mirroring the -gham and ingham in East England. Those names contrast sharply with the more typical Frankish names found in Limburg (e.g. in -hoven and -ingen) and along the Sambre-Meuse axis (Hainaut to Liège), which were also predominantly in -ingen (though Frenchified to -ange, -agne, -gnée, -gny and -gnies).

 

[nordicwarrior]

After further reviewing the Z58 map-- I going to have to walk back my earlier statement that members of this line would of have had to squeeze through Jutland to make it into the Continent. I think the "center stripe" through Germany to almost Zurich indicates foot movement (probably with at least some boat usage up the rivers), but the coastal flags along the Netherlands and Belgium look like boat landings (Danes and/or Saxons).