New population isolates identified in the eastern Italian Alps

[Sile]

Welsch Tyrol is Welschtirol;
Welsch means Romanic and Tyrol is the historical Alpine region of the County Tyrol (Bishopric Brixen and Bishopric Trent);

So it means the Romanic part of Tyrol i.e. Romanic Tyrol;

The Historical Welschtirol corresponds with what the Italians bureaucracy now calls Provincia di Trento or Trentino;

Historical Tyrol = NordTirol, SüdTirol, OstTirol, WelschTirol, Ladin-valleys and Vorlarlberg;
im shocked that you have no clue about it;

Always heard it as trentino or rovereto in history especially Rovereto in venetian archives

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure
Then again above site places it with south tyrol for genetics

from the same passage of the article;
Luserna is genetically very distant from all the other Alpine populations (average Fst=0.328; see Table S6) and shows a strikingly low intra-population diversity (0.483±0.119). Paternal lineages are represented mostly by the R1b-M269* (frequency of 84%), with six different STR haplotypes associated with only one founder surname......Your text......Luserna was founded by few families which moved from Lavarone, the first known Cimbrian settlement in the territory of Trentino [44]. This could have led to a strong founder effect in this community, a hypothesis supported by a previous study of mtDNA polymorphisms 40]. Moreover, Luserna is located on a high plateau (1,333 m a.s.l.) and is quite isolated from the surrounding areas.

The founder surname in Luserna is Nicolussi;
Almost all are called by this surname;
Incest in remote Alpine communities is and always was a reality;

And take a look at File S1 for all the Hg's listed;



Their amongst it;
Especially K-M9 in Primiero-valley and I1 in Lissinia;

ok, i will re-read

Doesnt tell me anything;
Because Raeti are not a Homogenous tribe but an endonym for a host of tribes;
Keeping in mind that even Indo-European Venetic was amongst the Raeti and many Raeti were also described as Ligurian;

Yes raetic, carni, venetic and nori where entwined in valleys, but the point is they must have been similar and only migration via the danube river area in the north would have introduced "foreign markers", like IMO the E marker

 

[Maciamo]

I've had a closer look at the Y-DNA data for each community, and found something potentially very interesting. The Cimbrians of Luserna are almost purely R1b (92%) apart from 2 T samples (8%). More importantly 21 of the 23 R1b samples were M269*. I know that the Cimbrian language is a dialect of Bavarian, and that those Cimbrians are thought to have arrived around the 11th-12th century. Nevertheless, nobody is sure of their origin, and if by any chance they could really be descended from the Cimmerians, like it was claimed for the ancient Cimbri of Denmark, then it would be quite amazing.

The Cimmerians lived in the North Caucasus and Pontic Steppe from circa 1300 to 800 BCE, then were displaced by the Scythians. Numerous hypotheses have been made about their possible descendants, notably the Cimbri of Jutland and the Franks, via the Sicambri. As and Indo-European people from the Black Sea region the Cimmerians could be either R1b or R1a. I believe that there is a higher chance that the Cimmerians were R1a, since in my chronology most R1b had left the Pontic Steppe by 2000 BCE. But they might have been the last predominantly R1b tribe to leave after all. If that is the case and the Cimmerians descend from those R1b who did not invade the Balkans, then go up the Danube to Central Europe then Western Europe, they would not belong to typical European subclades, but to a much older branch like M269 or L23.

The fact that we find a genetic isolate in the Alps whose name happens to be close to the Cimmerians and who belongs almost exclusively to R1b-M269 is an evidence in favour of this hypothesis (although a bit of a stretch).

R1b-M269 or L23 has been found at a low frequency (1-5%) in all Germanic populations, and is also the main R1b variety among Slavic and Balkanic people. The question is why is it present at all in Germanic populations, if the Proto-Celto-Germanic R1b was L11 and that L11 expanded dramatically from a tiny male population. If M269/L23 lineages had been with them they should also have expanded as spectacularly. So there is a good chance that the two lineages didn't expand together. In that case a later absorption of M269 or L23 people (perhaps the Cimmerians) by Germanic people would explain the low but consistent level of M269/L23 among Germanic people. The presence of M269/L23 in Italy can be attributed to the Greeks and Etruscans, and its presence of among Celtic population would be attributed to both Roman and Germanic invasions.

Unfortunately there is no mtDNA sample from Luserna.


Those Alpine valleys really have mind-boggling diversity of haplogroups. Sappada is quite clearly an Neolithic time-capsule with 63% of E-V13, 10.5% of G2a and 8% of J2a, which is mirrored on the mtDNA side by 44% of K1 and 5% of N1.

Timau is no less odd, with 56.5% of R1a, 30.5% of J2b, 13% of I1 and nothing else. Its maternal lineages have high levels of U2 (6.5%) and U4 (11%) that usually correspond to R1a.

The Fassa Valley has remarkably high percentages of J1 (15%) and T (23.5%).

 

[Wilhelm]

I remember in the previous study of genetic isolates from Friul-Venezia Giula that some of them plotted with Basques, or even further away, that may have to do with being 80-90% R1b in some of these samples ??

 

[adamo]

I'm surprised at how high the J2b and e-v13 frequencies are in the area; may there have been a Greek presence? The high R1a in Timau could be explained easily due to this region's proximity to parts of Austria and Slovenia.

 

[adamo]

Also the Fassa valley isn't too far from the Stilfs northern italy/Bavaria region where there is 23% hg T.

 

[Sile]

I've had a closer look at the Y-DNA data for each community, and found something potentially very interesting. The Cimbrians of Luserna are almost purely R1b (92%) apart from 2 T samples (8%). More importantly 21 of the 23 R1b samples were M269*. I know that the Cimbrian language is a dialect of Bavarian, and that those Cimbrians are thought to have arrived around the 11th-12th century. Nevertheless, nobody is sure of their origin, and if by any chance they could really be descended from the Cimmerians, like it was claimed for the ancient Cimbri of Denmark, then it would be quite amazing.

The Cimmerians lived in the North Caucasus and Pontic Steppe from circa 1300 to 800 BCE, then were displaced by the Scythians. Numerous hypotheses have been made about their possible descendants, notably the Cimbri of Jutland and the Franks, via the Sicambri. As and Indo-European people from the Black Sea region the Cimmerians could be either R1b or R1a. I believe that there is a higher chance that the Cimmerians were R1a, since in my chronology most R1b had left the Pontic Steppe by 2000 BCE. But they might have been the last predominantly R1b tribe to leave after all. If that is the case and the Cimmerians descend from those R1b who did not invade the Balkans, then go up the Danube to Central Europe then Western Europe, they would not belong to typical European subclades, but to a much older branch like M269 or L23.

The fact that we find a genetic isolate in the Alps whose name happens to be close to the Cimmerians and who belongs almost exclusively to R1b-M269 is an evidence in favour of this hypothesis (although a bit of a stretch).

R1b-M269 or L23 has been found at a low frequency (1-5%) in all Germanic populations, and is also the main R1b variety among Slavic and Balkanic people. The question is why is it present at all in Germanic populations, if the Proto-Celto-Germanic R1b was L11 and that L11 expanded dramatically from a tiny male population. If M269/L23 lineages had been with them they should also have expanded as spectacularly. So there is a good chance that the two lineages didn't expand together. In that case a later absorption of M269 or L23 people (perhaps the Cimmerians) by Germanic people would explain the low but consistent level of M269/L23 among Germanic people. The presence of M269/L23 in Italy can be attributed to the Greeks and Etruscans, and its presence of among Celtic population would be attributed to both Roman and Germanic invasions.

Unfortunately there is no mtDNA sample from Luserna.


Those Alpine valleys really have mind-boggling diversity of haplogroups. Sappada is quite clearly an Neolithic time-capsule with 63% of E-V13, 10.5% of G2a and 8% of J2a, which is mirrored on the mtDNA side by 44% of K1 and 5% of N1.

Timau is no less odd, with 56.5% of R1a, 30.5% of J2b, 13% of I1 and nothing else. Its maternal lineages have high levels of U2 (6.5%) and U4 (11%) that usually correspond to R1a.

The Fassa Valley has remarkably high percentages of J1 (15%) and T (23.5%).

see page 224 in link below ..............i am talking about the E ydna group as it being Greek

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...EwAA#v=onepage&q=Pannonian Sigynnians&f=false

Only Greeks I know that was in the north adriatic area in ancient times and maybe the alpine areas was the Corinthians in Adria and Ancona and the Mycenaeans in istria .........the Corinthians in ancient times also ruled all of the northern parts of the Peloponnese. If E in this alpine valleys came from the sea, then this is the way, but IMO , the E came via the Balkan plains of Serbia and moesia

 

[Nobody1]

Always heard it as trentino or rovereto in history especially Rovereto in venetian archives

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure
Then again above site places it with south tyrol for genetics

Welschtirol/Welschtiroler is the historical term;
Welsch designates anything Romanic like in also the French speaking part of Switzerland (Romandie) being called Welschschweiz/Welschland;
Welschtirol simply being the historical Romanic part of Tyrol;
Look Wallonia or Wallachia or Wales;

Yes raetic, carni, venetic and nori where entwined in valleys, but the point is they must have been similar and only migration via the danube river area in the north would have introduced "foreign markers", like IMO the E marker

Why must the Raeti, Carni, Noricans and Veneti have been similar?
And why would E-V13 be from the Bronze/Iron age? In the Neolithic times E-V13 was already spread as far west as Spain (Avellaner ~5000BC);
prob. via the Balkans it arrived and remained in the eastern Alps since the Neolithic;

As for similarities:
There is the Indo-European common root for the Noricans, Veneti and Carni;
Raeti just an exonym of a host of alpine non-Indo-European/Indo-European peoples;
Special link between the Carni and Noricans is the deity Belenus;

 

[adamo]

Very good comment nobody1, certainly the raeti derived from the Etruscans most probably (possibly Greeks) but I believe the Carni and noricans to have belonged to the R1 indo-European branch, I would go as far as saying R1b and maybe some I1 for the latter.

 

[Sile]

Very good comment nobody1, certainly the raeti derived from the Etruscans most probably (possibly Greeks) but I believe the Carni and noricans to have belonged to the R1 indo-European branch, I would go as far as saying R1b and maybe some I1 for the latter.

you have it backwards, the etruscans derived from the raeti..........this is the logical path, because etruscans arrived in Italy around 800BC, the raeti where already in the alps in the bronze-age

 

[Sile]

Why must the Raeti, Carni, Noricans and Veneti have been similar?
And why would E-V13 be from the Bronze/Iron age? In the Neolithic times E-V13 was already spread as far west as Spain (Avellaner ~5000BC);
prob. via the Balkans it arrived and remained in the eastern Alps since the Neolithic;

Because I doubt very much that celts in the alps where E-v13 ( la tene and hallstatt cultures) . logic tells me E came after the celts initial foray from western to eastern alps

 

[adamo]

Who EVER said the celts where e-v13, what planet are you living on? Some information on Carnia; home of the Carni, Friuli region of northeastern italy:

The name of the region, like neighbouring Carantania and Carinthia, probably derives from the Carni, a Celtic tribe who had lived for centuries in the fertile plains between the Rhine and the Danube rivers where other Celtic peoples lived. Starting from 400 BC, the demographic growth and the pressure of the Germanic peoples, originated a migratory flood towards the south. The Carni crossed the Alps via the Plöcken Pass and settled in the region which is nowadays named Carnia and in the piedmont zone of Friuli. They practiced hunting and breeding. During the hard winters the herders used to move with their cattle down to the piedmont plains. Also they were skilful iron and wood manufacturers. The Carni were headed by a king and a sacerdotal caste of druids.

 

[Sile]

Who EVER said the celts where e-v13, what planet are you living on? Some information on Carnia; home of the Carni, Friuli region of northeastern italy:

The name of the region, like neighbouring Carantania and Carinthia, probably derives from the Carni, a Celtic tribe who had lived for centuries in the fertile plains between the Rhine and the Danube rivers where other Celtic peoples lived. Starting from 400 BC, the demographic growth and the pressure of the Germanic peoples, originated a migratory flood towards the south. The Carni crossed the Alps via the Plöcken Pass and settled in the region which is nowadays named Carnia and in the piedmont zone of Friuli. They practiced hunting and breeding. During the hard winters the herders used to move with their cattle down to the piedmont plains. Also they were skilful iron and wood manufacturers. The Carni were headed by a king and a sacerdotal caste of druids.

why are you agreeing that celts where E-v13 , everything I say you go opposite:annoyed:

So, you believe that the carni, raeti and the E that is in those towns was before the celts arrived in the alps or the celts brought them there............''

I believe as i said, that the E came after, maybe by the Romans took illyria around 9BC

Carni ...what are you saying the carni had E marker ?......in italian historians, they say the carni always lived in the alps, English historians say the carni came from france and they where a gallic tribe....which do you believe?

 

[adamo]

Are you drunk or stoned? Lol, did you read what I wrote?: " Who EVER said the celts where e-v13, what planet are you living on?" The Carni where R1b celts, the Norics where pannonians of Illyrian descent settling in parts of Austria/Slovenia; I believe they brought I2a but where later heavily celticized with the arrival of R1b to the general Austria/Slovenia region, with a smaller celticization of Slovenia.

 

[adamo]

My prior quotation on the Celtic Carni : " The name of the region, like neighbouring Carantania and Carinthia, probably derives from the Carni, a Celtic tribe who had lived for centuries in the fertile plains between the Rhine and the Danube rivers where other Celtic peoples lived. Starting from 400 BC, the demographic growth and the pressure of the Germanic peoples, originated a migratory flood towards the south. The Carni crossed the Alps via the Plöcken Pass and settled in the region which is nowadays named Carnia and in the piedmont zone of Friuli. They practiced hunting and breeding. During the hard winters the herders used to move with their cattle down to the piedmont plains. Also they were skilful iron and wood manufacturers. The Carni were headed by a king and a sacerdotal caste of druids."

 

[adamo]

The Carni where a Celtic people either deriving from the Gallic carnutes of north-western France or they arrived via the Plocken Pass as a more Germanic Celtic group via the Italo-Austrian border; either way they were celts. I repeat once more; they were celts that settled near north-eastern Italy. The Celtic Carni would have inhabited parts of north-eastern Italy, southern Austria and parts of Slovenia as well.

 

[adamo]

The Rhaeti on the other hand were northward migrants of the Etruscans that moved from Tuscany towards alpine italy, they had a more north and eastern distribution within Italy in my opinion, not too far from the Austrian border for example. In the worst case scenario, the E-V13 presence may have been due to Greeks (originated on Balkans probably either way) but I don't see how it could easily be linked to the raetians if their genetic structure was in fact similar to that of the Etruscans, considering they are supposedly an alpine extension of the latter. The people of Noricum were pannonian Illyrians, probably having initially migrated from the Croatia or Bosnia-Herzegovina region of northernmost Illyria towards Slovenia, later on though they were heavily celticized;This is what I THINK they are. The Carni though were deffinetly celts and the raeti deffinetly weren't, so expect a different genetic composition for these two.

 

[adamo]

The proto-thracians and possibly even proto-Dacians would have initially branched out from the Croatia-Bosnia-Herzegovina nucleus region towards northeastern Greece and Romania respectively; they were in my opinion offshoots of the Illyrians.

 

[adamo]

The Illyrians once occupied parts of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, probably Serbia, northern Albania; I link them to y-DNA I-P37.2 (I2a). They are pre-Slavic inhabitants of the northwestern Balkans by the Adriatic Sea. Some Illyrian tribes were found as far south as Albania, but slightly more south they would have made contact with Greek tribes. Some of these Illyrians settled as far north as Slovenia and as Far East as Romania.

 

[Sile]

Are you drunk or stoned? Lol, did you read what I wrote?: " Who EVER said the celts where e-v13, what planet are you living on?" The Carni where R1b celts, the Norics where pannonians of Illyrian descent settling in parts of Austria/Slovenia; I believe they brought I2a but where later heavily celticized with the arrival of R1b to the general Austria/Slovenia region, with a smaller celticization of Slovenia.

you said, what planet am I living on ........do, not insult me again

 

[Sile]

The Rhaeti on the other hand were northward migrants of the Etruscans that moved from Tuscany towards alpine italy, they had a more north and eastern distribution within Italy in my opinion, not too far from the Austrian border for example. In the worst case scenario, the E-V13 presence may have been due to Greeks (originated on Balkans probably either way) but I don't see how it could easily be linked to the raetians if their genetic structure was in fact similar to that of the Etruscans, considering they are supposedly an alpine extension of the latter. The people of Noricum were pannonian Illyrians, probably having initially migrated from the Croatia or Bosnia-Herzegovina region of northernmost Illyria towards Slovenia, later on though they were heavily celticized;This is what I THINK they are. The Carni though were deffinetly celts and the raeti deffinetly weren't, so expect a different genetic composition for these two.

Raeti as stated where in the alps at the same time as the venetic people where in Italy and the venetic by archeology was from at least 1050BC ........so raeti where around before the etruscans came to Italy....logic says the etruscans came from raeti or from parts north of the raeti