New population isolates identified in the eastern Italian Alps

[Nobody1]

Raeti as stated where in the alps at the same time as the venetic people where in Italy and the venetic by archeology was from at least 1050BC ........so raeti where around before the etruscans came to Italy....logic says the etruscans came from raeti or from parts north of the raeti

That all depends on who exactly the Raeti even were;
The Indo-European Veneti emerged with the Este-culture (~900BC) the Raeti are however the carriers of the Fritzens-Sanzeno-culture (~500BC) that however stems from the Laugen-Melaun-culture (~1200BC);

The Etruscan civilization is a hybrid of Pelasgian Tyrsenoi and the pre-existing Urnfield/Villanova Indo-European Umbrians;
Those Tyrsenoi (Pelasgians) are recorded by Dionysius to have sailed up into the mouth of the Po from Thessaly and since they were active in expelling the Siculi from the Apennines and the Siculi are recorded by Thucydides to have reached Sicily 300 years before the first Greek colony (Naxos ~735BC) that would mean that the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi must have arrived in the 11th cen BC i.e. older than the Fritzens-Sanzeno (Raetic) culture;

Laugen-Melaun is a non-Indo-European Bronze-age culture in the same respect as Polada and Bonnanora; The pops. prob. stemmed from pre-existing cultures most notable the Neolithic (+Copper) Remedello and Mondsee-Altheim; Hence the Neolithic G2a and E-V13 and mtDNA K1 in still substantial pressence;
Indo-Europeans emerged with Terremare and Urnfield Villanova/Golasecca/Este

Maybe the Neolithic folks and the Bronze-age Pelasgians are not that diff. and infact of the same stock; The Pelasgians who originate in the Aegean are non-Indo-Europeans and why would they than be any diff. than the pre-existing Neolithic pops of the Balkans and Anatolia; So the linguistic link between Raeti and Etruscans (which isnt 1to1 anyways) could come from their broader heritage and not a direct descendants;

 

[adamo]

It wouldnt have been insulting Sile, if you didn't take insignificant comments so personally : ) the illyrians









that is the entire spread of illyrian culture, where those dots are.

 

[adamo]

First of all, the tyrsenians came to Tuscany by sea, arriving by the Tyrrhenian ocean side, the same side that Aeneas took when arriving to italy, either way, wether the Tyrrhenian or Adriatic side they landed at the height of Umbria.

 

[adamo]

If the Enetoi where in fact from way out there near the Caspian Sea and Turkmenistan, this could possibly explain some of the T in the region I believe.

 

[Sile]

That all depends on who exactly the Raeti even were;
The Indo-European Veneti emerged with the Este-culture (~900BC) the Raeti are however the carriers of the Fritzens-Sanzeno-culture (~500BC) that however stems from the Laugen-Melaun-culture (~1200BC);

The Etruscan civilization is a hybrid of Pelasgian Tyrsenoi and the pre-existing Urnfield/Villanova Indo-European Umbrians;
Those Tyrsenoi (Pelasgians) are recorded by Dionysius to have sailed up into the mouth of the Po from Thessaly and since they were active in expelling the Siculi from the Apennines and the Siculi are recorded by Thucydides to have reached Sicily 300 years before the first Greek colony (Naxos ~735BC) that would mean that the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi must have arrived in the 11th cen BC i.e. older than the Fritzens-Sanzeno (Raetic) culture;

Laugen-Melaun is a non-Indo-European Bronze-age culture in the same respect as Polada and Bonnanora; The pops. prob. stemmed from pre-existing cultures most notable the Neolithic (+Copper) Remedello and Mondsee-Altheim; Hence the Neolithic G2a and E-V13 and mtDNA K1 in still substantial pressence;
Indo-Europeans emerged with Terremare and Urnfield Villanova/Golasecca/Este

Maybe the Neolithic folks and the Bronze-age Pelasgians are not that diff. and infact of the same stock; The Pelasgians who originate in the Aegean are non-Indo-Europeans and why would they than be any diff. than the pre-existing Neolithic pops of the Balkans and Anatolia; So the linguistic link between Raeti and Etruscans (which isnt 1to1 anyways) could come from their broader heritage and not a direct descendants;

tests reveal earlier than 900BC

http://www.academia.edu/221297/Fami..._Basis_of_Osteological_Analysis_and_Epigraphy

Further evidence will come to hand in 2014 after the results of the 1000 plus graves, which IMO will include the raeti and egenai from the alps.

Pelasgians come from the modern area of european Turkey............where they went I do not exactly know. But they did not come from anatolia........even though some think they are linked with phygians

 

[adamo]

Good post.

 

[Nobody1]

tests reveal earlier than 900BC

I was talking about the Este-culture being ~900BC

your test:
The transition between the Late Bronze Age and the Early Iron Age (c.1050–900 BC) in this region was characterized by important social realignments accompanied by a partial shift in the settlement pattern.

those are the transition cultures like Canegrate is to Golasecca (also ~900 BC);
however your test doesnt mention much about this transition phase of 1050-900 BC;

Further evidence will come to hand in 2014 after the results of the 1000 plus graves, which IMO will include the raeti and egenai from the alps.

cant wait for the results;

Pelasgians come from the modern area of european Turkey............where they went I do not exactly know. But they did not come from anatolia........even though some think they are linked with phygians

I said the Pelasgians originated in Aegean;
They are recorded in Arcadia, Thessaly, Crete, Lemnos and Anatolia (and later Oenotrians and Tyrsenoi in Italy);

 

[Sile]

Distribution of Y-DNA K-M9 (~T) among the groups:

from another forum, numbers in turquoise are the K-M9 gather from all the links on that survey.

IMO, could only be either T or L ydna markers

 

[adamo]

Big Sile; what do you think about the map I recently posted of y-DNA T?

 

[Nobody1]

The Y-DNA Hg's of the Ladiner in

Coia et al 2013 -
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0081704

142 samples of three Ladiner valleys (Badia/Fassa/Gardena)

10.5% K-M9 [15 samples]

0.7% R1b-M269 [1 samples]
8.4% R1b-L51 [12 samples]
0.7% R1b-L11 [1 samples]
28.1% R1b-U152 [40 samples]
10.5% R1b-L21 [15 samples]
4.2% R1b-U106 [6 samples]

1.4% R1a [2 samples]

0.7% I-M170 [1 samples]
4.9% I1-M253 [7samples]
0.7% I2-P37.2 [1 samples]

5.6% G-M201 [8 samples]

0.7% E-M35 [1 samples]
2.8% E-V13 [4 samples]

4.9% J1-M267 [7samples]
0.7% J2-M172 [1 samples]
10.5% J2a [15 samples]
3.5% J2b [5 samples]

Highlights are
The 28.1% R1b-U152 [2.1% U152* / 26.0% L2] meaning 92.5% of all U152 in Ladiner folks is L2;
And 10.5% R1b-L21 (reaching 24.4% in Gardena-valley 12/49 samples);
4.9% J1-M267 (only in Fassa-valley 14.8% 7/47 samples);

 

[adamo]

Maybe siles dad WAS a Veneti....the Enetoi of Turkmenistan; something has to explain the definitive presence of y-DNA T in the northeastern Alps of Italy; it can be found as high as 25%. The source of R-S28, which is rarer than in the northwest or north central regions is no surprise, smaller infiltration of Gallic tribes. The 10% L21 and J2a are a surprise to me though.

 

[adamo]

Of course R-S28 is still the most frequent but who would expect that in northeastern italy R-L21, J2a and K-M9* derivatives are still real contenders.

 

[Sile]

The Y-DNA Hg's of the Ladiner in

Coia et al 2013 -
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0081704

142 samples of three Ladiner valleys (Badia/Fassa/Gardena)

10.5% K-M9 [15 samples]

0.7% R1b-M269 [1 samples]
8.4% R1b-L51 [12 samples]
0.7% R1b-L11 [1 samples]
28.1% R1b-U152 [40 samples]
10.5% R1b-L21 [15 samples]
4.2% R1b-U106 [6 samples]

1.4% R1a [2 samples]

0.7% I-M170 [1 samples]
4.9% I1-M253 [7samples]
0.7% I2-P37.2 [1 samples]

5.6% G-M201 [8 samples]

0.7% E-M35 [1 samples]
2.8% E-V13 [4 samples]

4.9% J1-M267 [7samples]
0.7% J2-M172 [1 samples]
10.5% J2a [15 samples]
3.5% J2b [5 samples]

Highlights are
The 28.1% R1b-U152 [2.1% U152* / 26.0% L2] meaning 92.5% of all U152 in Ladiner folks is L2;
And 10.5% R1b-L21 (reaching 24.4% in Gardena-valley 12/49 samples);
4.9% J1-M267 (only in Fassa-valley 14.8% 7/47 samples);

much appreciated

IMO since trentino and south tyrol have 8% of L and 5% of T , i suspect that the 15x K samples will be split 10x L and 5 xT

 

[Sile]

Maybe siles dad WAS a Veneti....the Enetoi of Turkmenistan; something has to explain the definitive presence of y-DNA T in the northeastern Alps of Italy; it can be found as high as 25%. The source of R-S28, which is rarer than in the northwest or north central regions is no surprise, smaller infiltration of Gallic tribes. The 10% L21 and J2a are a surprise to me though.

28% is what southern germans say of T in bavaria/austria ....doubt it.

Yes my father is veneto.........last 10 generations in fact .....last week i found another 3 generations and I am checking the certificates at the moment ( hand writing is poor sometimes). But , the more I check into my paternal line, the further into the alps my paternal line goes

 

[adamo]

Genographic project stated that depending on the region 3-23% of males can be T; I know for a fact their national average is about 1% though, even less than the suggested minimum of 3%.

 

[Nobody1]

Maybe siles dad WAS a Veneti....the Enetoi of Turkmenistan; something has to explain the definitive presence of y-DNA T in the northeastern Alps of Italy; it can be found as high as 25%. The source of R-S28, which is rarer than in the northwest or north central regions is no surprise, smaller infiltration of Gallic tribes. The 10% L21 and J2a are a surprise to me though.

The R1b-U152 is no surprise - the overwhelming amount of U152/L2+ however is;
(26.0% of the total pop. and 92.5% within U152 / 142 samples);
R1b-U152 is most def. due to all the Indo-European Keltic (Vennones/Carni) and Venetic folks mingling with/within the East Alpine Raetic realms (as attested by Historic and Linguistic inscriptions); prob. also the Indo-European Symrbi (Umbrians);


J2a is not that surprising as its well common all across Italy and also other Alpine regions;
J-M304 is 8.8% in East Tyrol (270 samples - Niederstätter et al 2012)
J2-M172 is 6.8% in Bavaria (218 samples - Rebala et al 2013)


The 10.5% of R1b-L21 is the real sensation (whats the Brythonic Keltic link?);
Bavaria = 1.3% R1b-L21 (218 samples - Rebala et al 2013)
East Tyrol = 0.0% R1b-L21 (270 samples - Niederstätter et al 2012)
Venetia = 0.0% R1b-L21 (73 samples - Boattini et al 2013)

And yet right in middle of all these regions (0-1.3%) there is a Ladiner valley (Grödner/Gardena) with 24.4% and a certain volk-group (Ladiner/Raeto-Romanic) with 10.5% R1b-L21 overall 142 sampels;
Obviously an isolated pan-Keltic phenomenan;
Im waiting for a study with Romansch samples (the other Raeto-Romanic people);
Maybe R1b-L21 is an Alpine isolate in addition to a pan-Keltic phenomanan with R1b-U152 stuffing the center of this pan-Keltic phenomenan;

 

[Sile]

The R1b-U152 is no surprise - the overwhelming amount of U152/L2+ however is;
(26.0% of the total pop. and 92.5% within U152 / 142 samples);
R1b-U152 is most def. due to all the Indo-European Keltic (Vennones/Carni) and Venetic folks mingling with/within the East Alpine Raetic realms (as attested by Historic and Linguistic inscriptions); prob. also the Indo-European Symrbi (Umbrians);


J2a is not that surprising as its well common all across Italy and also other Alpine regions;
J-M304 is 8.8% in East Tyrol (270 samples - Niederstätter et al 2012)
J2-M172 is 6.8% in Bavaria (218 samples - Rebala et al 2013)


The 10.5% of R1b-L21 is the real sensation (whats the Brythonic Keltic link?);
Bavaria = 1.3% R1b-L21 (218 samples - Rebala et al 2013)
East Tyrol = 0.0% R1b-L21 (270 samples - Niederstätter et al 2012)
Venetia = 0.0% R1b-L21 (73 samples - Boattini et al 2013)

And yet right in middle of all these regions (0-1.3%) there is a Ladiner valley (Grödner/Gardena) with 24.4% and a certain volk-group (Ladiner/Raeto-Romanic) with 10.5% R1b-L21 overall 142 sampels;
Obviously an isolated pan-Keltic phenomenan;
Im waiting for a study with Romansch samples (the other Raeto-Romanic people);
Maybe R1b-L21 is an Alpine isolate in addition to a pan-Keltic phenomanan with R1b-U152 stuffing the center of this pan-Keltic phenomenan;

thanks

So, L2 represents the gallic/celtic alpine people or whatever the Raetic and Carni people where.............is that your conclusion?

If so, we can co9nclude then, that with the Ghiotto paper, the L2 in Italy was introduced by etruscans migrating from the alps into north-central and central Italy.

BTW, the term VENETIA in Italy represents the 3 venice's that is the regions of Trentino, Veneto and Friuli ................so zero L21 for these areas, interesting.

 

[MOESAN]

it is weird: these valleys seem to my as male "clans" territories with huge founder effects and/or drifts (common in mountainous regions) - very surprising - I have some difficulties to think this situation has been like that for ever ... or previous differences of distribution have been magnified with time (linked to partial desertification by internal rural exode?)

 

[Nobody1]

thanks

Dont mention it

So, L2 represents the gallic/celtic alpine people or whatever the Raetic and Carni people where

No;
R1b-U152 in total (U152*/L2) represents the Indo-European peoples in that certain region i.e. the Keltic (Vennones/Carni) and Venetic; I want to throw in also the Indo-European Symbri (Umbrians) as well;
But L2 is also the main U152 lineage in Bavaria (Rebala et al 2013) for example;

If so, we can co9nclude then, that with the Ghiotto paper, the L2 in Italy was introduced by etruscans migrating from the alps into north-central and central Italy.

No we can not conclude this;
Because the Etruscans were a hybrid civilization of non-Indo-European Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) and Indo-European Umbrians and Ghirotto only tested the maternal (mtDNA) lineages of this civilization which however (as also stated in that study) could come from the pre-existing Cultures;

The Indo-Europeans (Umbrians) arrived from beyond the Alps with the Terremare and Urnfield (Villanova/Golasecca) culture expansions and the Pelasgians are recorded to have come from Thessaly (from Lydia/Herodotus) by boat via the Adriatic and entering by the mouth of the Po (Dionysius I/XVIII);

BTW, the term VENETIA in Italy represents the 3 venice's that is the regions of Trentino, Veneto and Friuli ................so zero L21 for these areas, interesting.

That is interesting given in contrast that the Ladiners are 10.5% R1b-L21 (142 samples);
Im looking at the results of the Venetian valleys of Welschtirol and by now i can see some R1b-L21 but nowhere near 10.5%;

 

[Nobody1]

Coia et al 2013 -
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0081704

138 samples from the Venetian areas/valleys (Adige/Primiero/Fiemme)

3.6% K-M9 [5 samples]

9.4% R1b-M269 [13 samples]
2.1% R1b-L51 [3 samples]
0.7% R1b-L11 [1 samples]
4.3% R1b-P312 [6 samples]
1.4% R1b-SRY2627 [2 samples]
0.7% R1b-L21 [1 samples]
26.0% R1b-U152 [36 samples]
6.5% R1b-U106 [9 samples]

5.0% R1a-M17 [7 samples]

18.1% G-M201 [25 samples]

4.3% I1-M253 [6 samples]
0.7% I2-M223 [1 samples]
2.1% I2-M423 [3 samples]

5.7% E-V13 [8 samples]
0.7% E-V22 [1 samples]

1.4% J1-M267 [2 samples]
2.1% J2a [3 samples]
2.8% J2b [4 samples]

[2 samples n.a.]

@ Sile
Do you see a connection between Vindelici, Veneti, Lacus Venetus, Vennones and Venostes?

Acc. to Strabo the Vennones were Vindelici and acc. to Ptolemy the Vennones only dwelt in the Raetia part (not Vindelicia part) and only Venetic inscriptions have been found across Raetia; Maybe its all an own (broader Alpine) Indo-European branch - akin to Keltic but more like Venetic in specifics;

Strabo - IV/VI
But the Licattii, the Clautinatii, and the Vennones proved the boldest amongst the Vindelici; and the Rucantii and Cotuantii amongst the Rhæti.