Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 61

Thread: Human Phenotypes

  1. #1
    Banned Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    07-09-11
    Posts
    891
    Points
    6,887
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,887, Level: 24
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 163
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Georgian
    Country: Georgia



    Human Phenotypes



    It seems to be a nice page, although I still have some questions about ethnic affiliations and geographic distribution..

    http://www.humanphenotypes.com/index.html

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Haha, yeah it really is nice. Though I disagree with some of the descriptions of certain ethnicities. They seem to have an out-dated perspective. They don't mention that Nordids are mixed. And that Alpines are completely unrelated to Cromagnoids. They seem to think that they are "reduced" versions, which I think we all know is silly.

  3. #3
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,348
    Points
    36,248
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,248, Level: 58
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 402
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Haha, yeah it really is nice. Though I disagree with some of the descriptions of certain ethnicities. They seem to have an out-dated perspective. They don't mention that Nordids are mixed. And that Alpines are completely unrelated to Cromagnoids. They seem to think that they are "reduced" versions, which I think we all know is silly.
    I want not immediately go into debate -
    what are your explanations concerning the alpine phenotype formation? (origin type, temporal and geograpphical facts...)
    thanks beforehand
    Happy New Year, by the way

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I want not immediately go into debate -
    what are your explanations concerning the alpine phenotype formation? (origin type, temporal and geograpphical facts...)
    thanks beforehand
    Happy New Year, by the way
    I think that what people call the "East Baltid" type was the original Indo-European phenotype, which evolved to withstand the cold in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. Round faces, short limbs, and a long torso are adaptations which ensure heat retention, which is extremely important in cold environments. Generally all humans who live in northern latitudes have these features (Eskimos, Russians, Irish, Poles, Sami people, etc). Subsequent Indo-European mixing with darker neolithic Mediterranean and Cro-Magnon populations created the "Alpine" physical appearance, which is very common in the Alps and all other mountain ranges which have a large quantity of useful ores (which makes sense because Indo-Europeans were the first ones to smelt bronze). And I think this because of two main reasons: the skull measurements of the Androvo skulls are apparently very close to that of the Polish average, and all countries that have an exceptionally high percentage of R1b or R1a, the people are round-faced (Ireland, Poland, Ukraine, etc). The only Northern people whose appearance goes from this pattern is that of Nordids/Scandinavians, and I think this is explained by their high frequency of haplogroup I1, and that is evidence of strong European paleolithic/Cro-Magnon ancestry. Now you could argue that Cro-Magnons were also adapted to the cold like Indo-Europeans and Mongoloids were, but I think they only partially were. Humans reached Europe many thousands of years after they first reached Central Asia, so Cro-Magnons didn't have enough time to fully adapt to it.

    Happy New Year to you too!

  5. #5
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,348
    Points
    36,248
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,248, Level: 58
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 402
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    thanks for kind answer
    I've no time right now to give my thoughts, just a remark: for me things are a bit more complicated, your descriptions concerning today populations are oversimplified, sometimes very wrong, and phenotypes in direction to alpine type are very older than metal discoveries (for I know) and I-E; even if living in cold countries Andronovo types, for I know, was not so strudy bodied as you seam claiming - I 'll try to propose rough thoughts about all that when I find time -
    all that never will cause us having a bad new year!!! all the way, I discuss that for my pleasure (not without some kind of nostalgy), but human beings and our planet "earth" know other problems today. Have a good time!
    I wish a happy peaceful new year for all our 'colleagues' forumers, by the way.

  6. #6
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,348
    Points
    36,248
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,248, Level: 58
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 402
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    sorry: sturdy, not "strudy"

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    I've no time right now to give my thoughts, just a remark: for me things are a bit more complicated, your descriptions concerning today populations are oversimplified, sometimes very wrong
    I oversimplify often, but I don't think I am wrong about the Alpines being Indo-European. The Alpine type is the most common right at the area where the Halstatt culture flourished, from there it spread all over Western Europe. There is actually a book I read that mentions how with the arrival of the Alpine type, bronze-metalworking arrived as well.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    even if living in cold countries Andronovo types, for I know, was not so strudy bodied as you seam claiming - I 'll try to propose rough thoughts about all that when I find time -
    You have to look at their skulls, their bodies will ofcourse look fragile and not sturdy, just like Mongoloid bodies are. Their skulls are wide, chins fairly weak, cheeks prominent.

  9. #9
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,348
    Points
    36,248
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,248, Level: 58
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 402
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    You have to look at their skulls, their bodies will ofcourse look fragile and not sturdy, just like Mongoloid bodies are. Their skulls are wide, chins fairly weak, cheeks prominent.
    I don't confuse macroskele or athletic longiline with "fragile" - and here I was only speaking about total stature, not internal proportions, in answer to the alleged small statures linked very often to cold climate (for Andronovo) - for their skulls, i suppose you like me have not their measures, only the first look at their faces (skull and face can be dysharmonic, like in wellknown 'cromagnon' type) -
    concerning Bronze and 'Alpine' types, the old studies claiming that generalized very too much and confused 'dinaric' types with 'alpine' types, that is very amazing to me!!! seamingly 'alpine' type began to show up about 8000/6000 BC and cristallize about
    4000/2000 BC in WESTERN Europe, in the ALPS regions and surroundings - the first 'alpine' like people appeared in Anatolia and around about only 2000 BC, running the oppsite side to Bronze propagation, for I know.
    in opposition to what was said above, 'alpine' type show concerning skull (and face) a number of features which evocate 'cromagnon' (brachycephalized) more than any other type, except some gentle so called 'borreby' types (not all of them, because 'borreby' is a very wide classification of types)

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    4000/2000 BC in WESTERN Europe, in the ALPS regions and surroundings - the first 'alpine' like people appeared in Anatolia and around about only 2000 BC, running the oppsite side to Bronze propagation, for I know.
    4000-2000 BC roughly corresponds with the early part of the Bronze Age! They appeared in Anatolia only in 2000 BC you say? Well according to one theory I have read on here, R1b went North into the steppe around the Caspian Sea, there they mixed with R1a and they shared technologies with each other. After this fusion of culture (and of genes), supposedly the first proto-Indo-Europeans emerged. So maybe Alpines/East Baltids only arrived in Anatolia during R1bs back-migration from the steppe. The Hittite empire lasted from around 1600 BC to 1200 BC. And you said that the first Alpine skulls found in Anatolia are 2000 BC, this fits extremely well with my theory!

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,048
    Points
    9,076
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,076, Level: 28
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 274
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    One question: France and especially Brittany are strongholds of alpines, but Britain and Scandinavia are the regions with the fewest alpine individuals. Yet Brittany was once populated by british-celts. Alpine phenotypes exists also in Africa and Asia, which raises the question whether alpinism is latent in many more humans than actually visible and it can emerge and disappear within very few generations depending on the lifestyle.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    One question: France and especially Brittany are strongholds of alpines, but Britain and Scandinavia are the regions with the fewest alpine individuals. Yet Brittany was once populated by british-celts. Alpine phenotypes exists also in Africa and Asia, which raises the question whether alpinism is latent in many more humans than actually visible and it can emerge and disappear within very few generations depending on the lifestyle.
    Well if we assume that Indo-Europeans had Alpine-like skulls, it would explain the widespread presence of the Alpine phenotype. I think that Celts were very Alpine, and I think this explains why both Southern Germans and French are very Alpine in appearance.

    I would argue that many British who are descendants of Celts tend to have roundish faces. Even the 19th century stereotype of round-faced Welsh and Irish seems to suggest this. Perhaps, only Brits who are descendants of the Normans, Ango-Saxons, Danish vikings, etc. are the long-faced ones. Most of the British upper classes are long-faced and it is usually them that we see in the media, so I think that we are under an illusion about what the average Brit looks like. Most British folks that I have personally met have had fairly round faces. I also heard from one of my old college professors (who was Welsh) that the Welsh (and Englishmen who live around the area of Wales) tend to have significantly rounder faces than most Englishmen.

  13. #13
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,348
    Points
    36,248
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,248, Level: 58
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 402
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    One question: France and especially Brittany are strongholds of alpines, but Britain and Scandinavia are the regions with the fewest alpine individuals. Yet Brittany was once populated by british-celts. Alpine phenotypes exists also in Africa and Asia, which raises the question whether alpinism is latent in many more humans than actually visible and it can emerge and disappear within very few generations depending on the lifestyle.
    When we speak about anything we have to rely on precise enough facts - so concerning these last posts:
    &: first 'alpine' traits are not only brachycephally - second: phenotypical traits don't disappear and emerge again so easily, it 's not a music hall trick ! even if "milieu" has an impact on them! no natural pressure eradicates and recreates strong genetical differences like that!

    Already on an other forum I red someone evocating the «brachycephally» of armorican Bretons and Basques - facts: Brittany in not yet an homogenous region, according to its history: Bretons of the 1950's presented CI means running between 79 to 85 which is a wide enough ranged for the same region -

    the total mean would have been about 83,5 for the 5 depatements involved – but the local «cantons» (little districts =~ 6-9 parrishes) surveys show clear enough oppositions:

    the more mesocephallic areas were in Western Brittany, coastal, and in Northern Brittany, coastal too, albeit some inlands very rare exceptions: western and northern coastal: CI = 79,0 <> 82,7 mean of means =~ 81,5 – the inlands eastern parts were meso-sub-brachycephallic: CI = 83,5 <> 85,1 mean of means =~ 84,0 – all that with a roughly «central path» about 83...

    the 'alpine ' type is the very dominant element among this brachycephallic trend, even if some 'dinaric' and sort of 'borreby' can be found – an exception (82,9) is the western coastal region of the 'Bro Vigouden' (south Finistère), where some more 'dinaric' element seams envolved in the brachycephallic trend even if far from being the first element -

    the more 'alpine' and brachycephallic regions of France are in Auvergne and North Languedoc and Central Alps, with more or less 'dinaric' trend (more in South «Causses» and Alps but light as a whole) – there brachycephally was running between 84,5 and 88,0 with 7 departememnts about 85-86!



    &: I precise in the 1930-50's true brachycephally «live» was about 88-92 CI, not 83 or 84 as defined by crania studies old classifications (some individuals ober 95!) - true dolichocephally was about 71-73 -

    its true that as a whole, Norway, Sweden, Britain, Spain and Portugal was on the dolichocephalic side, but yet more meso-dolicho' than dolicho' – (Portugal 76, England 77, Spain 77, Sweden 77, Norway 78) – everywhere, local variations – but even 76 is not dolichocephally, only meso-dolichocephally (look at some Arabs tribes (73-75), Pathans (72-73)..., and even closer to us among the european lands in comparison we had already in the 1930's CI as 73 (N-E Portugal, C-E Corsica, some parts of Sardinia), 74 (C-N-E Portugal, some remote villages of N Wales) -

    as a whole England mean is CI 76-77, Scotland, Ulster and Wales 78-79, Eireann 79-80 – some british orirish areas have more than 80: Kerry, Mayo, Fifeshire, Avon (Bristol)...

    COON eliminated the 'alpine' type as component of Ireland, speaking of «paleolithical remnants brachycephalized» (but 'alpine' too could fit this definition, maybe), putting in the same bag so called 'borreby' types and 'brünn' as in western Norway: but where the 'brünn' descendants are the denser, the CI's are lower: only in the Norway's areas rich for 'borreby' are found meso- to sub-brachycephallic means) – Ireland is not without light 'borreby' possible influence but me I see a non negligeable 'alpine' influence, and some 'dinaric' too – the same in Eastern Scotland where at post Urnfields times were found some 'alpine like' remnants with cultrual artefats evocating Alps continental Celts...

    to be complete, I think that at the 1930-1940's for people living in not too different natural conditions the mesocephally between true dolicho- and true brachycephally (whether 'alpine' or 'dinaric') lied about 81-82 – a population where was found a mean CI of 77 contained roughly 25% of pure brachy' component – a population where was found a mean CI of 85-86 contained roughly 75% - the %'s are not so evident with 'borreby' because it seams being a «mean» composite element according to surveys about Western Norway (arbitrary mean: 84, but individuals over 90, as 'alpines and 'dinaric') -

    & I suppose all these cyphers (cephalic index mean) would be diminished if we should take the present day populations, even without new crossings – 1 % (one index) was lost from the 1930's to the 1950's as a mean – I should bet an lost of -2% more again between the 1950's -



    history: roughly the distribution of meso- versus sub-brachychepallic regions in Brittany mimics the binary opposition between old atlantic maritime regions (atlantic bronze) where because of their insularity Insular Brittons landed more densely and the inland regions where the mix of numerous continental Gauls and some Roman citizens dominate – we know that about Iron Age colonization in western Aremorica occurred from the Parisian Bassin where 'alpine' type was very common at that time – 'alpine' phenotypes were become the heavier element among celtized people of central and eastern Gallia – the difference of insular Britton settlements densities (the ones of the 5° to 7° century) are confirmed by macro- & microtoponymy -



    to conclude, when we took the Great Islands compared to Brittany, we see that at same period (relatively modern), the CI's were different, but some regions showed a pass about CI's of 80-81, a lot of others not too far, 78-83 what is not true contrast considering the toal fork of 71 to 90... I know Ceph-Index is just an aspect

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,048
    Points
    9,076
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,076, Level: 28
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 274
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Thank you for your comprehensive response. I should specify my question more: I mean the Alpine type in particular, not Brachycephalics in general. I'm also sceptic in particular regarding Coon's theories about alpinid admixture creating dinarids etc., because:
    True Alpinids are characterized not only by brachycephaly and round face, but also short legs, short neck and long trunk.
    I read somwehere (I don't have the source anymore) a claim that alpinid individuals are very robust and resilient against diseases of any kind, that they can better survive periods of starvation and their life expectancy is also higher. Germany's population allegedly was significantly more alpine in the past (until 50's or 60's), but since 80's and later their offspring tend to be much less often alpine. This is something that I personally also could observe here. This plus the new discovery of epigenetic mutations and inheritance led me to speculate that possibly the alpinid phenotype is not just a usual phenotype but rather a medical condition, which is useful from an evolutionary point of view in that it can be switched on and of quickly, depending on environmental conditions. If I find time later, I'll try to find some source for these claims.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,048
    Points
    9,076
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,076, Level: 28
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 274
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Well if we assume that Indo-Europeans had Alpine-like skulls, it would explain the widespread presence of the Alpine phenotype. I think that Celts were very Alpine, and I think this explains why both Southern Germans and French are very Alpine in appearance.
    Certainly, but I mean that the alpinid phenotype is possibly not exclusively indo-european but also widespread in other than IE-settlements.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,048
    Points
    9,076
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,076, Level: 28
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 274
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    These two people are examples for what I mean:

    Polandkaczynski_jaroslaw_mina_450.jpeg


    German-French border200.jpg

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Certainly, but I mean that the alpinid phenotype is possibly not exclusively indo-european but also widespread in other than IE-settlements.
    Well the Alpinid/East Baltic phenotype is similar to the Mongoloid one in many ways, yet they aren't very closely related. The common thing that they both have is having evolved in a very frigid environment. Both have all the additional features u listed: hort legs, short neck and long trunk.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,048
    Points
    9,076
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,076, Level: 28
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 274
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Well the Alpinid/East Baltic phenotype is similar to the Mongoloid one in many ways, yet they aren't very closely related. The common thing that they both have is having evolved in a very frigid environment. Both have all the additional features u listed: hort legs, short neck and long trunk.
    East Baltic is very different from Alpine in that it has much more paleolithic properties, like big stature, robustness and long arms. 19th century racialists linked it to Borreby.

    charles-bronson.jpg
    220px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-S51620,_Generalfeldmarschall_Paul_v._Hindenburg.jpg

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    19th century racialists linked it to Borreby.
    19th century racialists were wrong about MANY things. For example they thought that Germanic people were the purest Indo-Europeans, now we know that Germanic people are some of the most mixed people in Europe. In the 19th century they didn't have genetic data, and nationalism/imperialism blinded their research. I think Indo-european haplogroups (R1a, R1b) are always followed by a round-faced, short-legged, long-torsoed phenotype. Slavs are mostly R1a, and they tend to be round-faced. Celts are mostly R1b and they also tend to be round-faced. The only Europeans who have long faces are Germanic, Dinaric, and Mediterranean ones, and not surprisingly all three of these have R1b and R1a to a much lesser degree than Slavs and Celts.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Well if we assume that Indo-Europeans had Alpine-like skulls, it would explain the widespread presence of the Alpine phenotype. I think that Celts were very Alpine, and I think this explains why both Southern Germans and French are very Alpine in appearance.

    I would argue that many British who are descendants of Celts tend to have roundish faces. Even the 19th century stereotype of round-faced Welsh and Irish seems to suggest this. Perhaps, only Brits who are descendants of the Normans, Ango-Saxons, Danish vikings, etc. are the long-faced ones. Most of the British upper classes are long-faced and it is usually them that we see in the media, so I think that we are under an illusion about what the average Brit looks like. Most British folks that I have personally met have had fairly round faces. I also heard from one of my old college professors (who was Welsh) that the Welsh (and Englishmen who live around the area of Wales) tend to have significantly rounder faces than most Englishmen.
    Very outdated and just plain incorrect to some extent.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Indigenous Germanics are mixed significantly with other European peoples but not other races. Turkish influences, for instance, are very residual.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,048
    Points
    9,076
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,076, Level: 28
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 274
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    19th century racialists were wrong about MANY things.
    They were mostly wrong by their historical interpretation, but not so much by their observation. However, you can just ignore the 19th century remark, my opinion is independent anyway. East Baltic is still one of the most paleolithic phenotypes up to me, which BTW was not such a popular opinion in 19th century. Still, even they could not completely deny similarities to Borreby (some called Borreby "West Baltic", which I tend to agree with, 19th century or not).

    For example they thought that Germanic people were the purest Indo-Europeans, now we know that Germanic people are some of the most mixed people in Europe. In the 19th century they didn't have genetic data, and nationalism/imperialism blinded their research. I think Indo-european haplogroups (R1a, R1b) are always followed by a round-faced, short-legged, long-torsoed phenotype. Slavs are mostly R1a, and they tend to be round-faced. Celts are mostly R1b and they also tend to be round-faced. The only Europeans who have long faces are Germanic, Dinaric, and Mediterranean ones, and not surprisingly all three of these have R1b and R1a to a much lesser degree than Slavs and Celts.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Indigenous Germanics are mixed significantly with other European peoples but not other races. Turkish influences, for instance, are very residual.
    Germanic people have less Indo-European haplogroup frequency than most other European people. That is what I am referring to. I didn't mention races or Turks, what are you talking about?

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    They were mostly wrong by their historical interpretation, but not so much by their observation. However, you can just ignore the 19th century remark, my opinion is independent anyway. East Baltic is still one of the most paleolithic phenotypes up to me, which BTW was not such a popular opinion in 19th century. Still, even they could not completely deny similarities to Borreby (some called Borreby "West Baltic", which I tend to agree with, 19th century or not).
    Areas which have high amounts of the "East Baltic" phenotype, don't have high paleolithic haplogroup frequency (haplogroup I). They are a hot spot for R1a, not "I". I don't see how they can be paleolithic, except for maybe in the far eastern parts of Europe.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,048
    Points
    9,076
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,076, Level: 28
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 274
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Areas which have high amounts of the "East Baltic" phenotype, don't have high paleolithic haplogroup frequency (haplogroup I). They are a hot spot for R1a, not "I". I don't see how they can be paleolithic, except for maybe in the far eastern parts of Europe.
    1. The paleolithic covers 30000 years of european history.
    2. Haplogroups are almost meaningless compared to the significance of autosomals (check the admixture component which has a peak in the baltic area). HG I is relatively old in europe, thus especially inexact.
    3. The Hunter-gatherers of europe which followed the melting glaciers were connected to siberia and beyond as shown by SNP admixture (and meanwhile confirmed also by STR). Most evidences suggest a common trans-eurasian space in the northern tundra. Hence, a minor "mongoloid" admixture in north europeans is probably not a recent admixture but an integral part from very early times (the Y-HG Q traces in Scandinavia might be such old remnants, which got eradicated east of scandinavia by HG N and R1a newcomer lineages). Many north europeans also have higher cheek bones than "old" mediterraneans, though not as high as mongols of course. That would be also an explanation for the phenotype of the Kennewick man. BTW, this is quite an anti-19th-centurish point of view.
    4. Who knows what HG I was originally. It is just a Haplogroup - one single lineage among hundred thousands of other predecessors. It could have belonged to one particular horde or epoch. But I find it hard to believe that all european hunter-gatherers, cro-magnons, gravettians, etc. always belonged exclusively to HG I or F.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •