Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Roman DNA distribution

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-11-12
    Posts
    11
    Points
    943
    Level
    7
    Points: 943, Level: 7
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 7
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    ItaloCeltic
    Country: United States



    Roman DNA distribution

    Forgive my difficulty I have expressing my thoughts, English is not my first language. Does anybody have any up-to-date info on the Alsace/Argentoratum region? I'm interested in this region because this is where Roman settlement is not known much in genetics due to the fact that they have the same R1b as Italy (u152).

    I see that Alsace was a large Roman military settlement for 500 years as well as a major center of viticulture important to the Roman Empire.

    Is the low level of J2 in Alsace because most of the merchants/soldiers in that time span probably came from northern/central Italy where R1b-u152 is highest already?

    We look at Italy, and R1b-U152 is high in the north and central regions (of course it's high all over Italy). So if the majority haplogroup in Alsace (u152) is the same as the majority haplogroup in northern/central Italy (u152), don't you think Roman settlement left a bigger impact than a mere 5% J2 that is implied in Alsace? Do you get what I'm saying? Argentoratum was Gaulish, and Gaulish Italian as well as other Italian soldiers and merchants probably came and mixed since they were similar to the Gaulish people of Argentoratum.

    If Romans brought and left the 5% J2 in Alsace, then they probably left a more significant amount of R1b-U152 there too because J2 is less frequent in north/central Italy than u152 already? But we can't tell that because Alsace was already mostly R1b-u152 already. So if we can't tell from DNA, can't we guess how much of an impact the Romans had in Alsace with ratios? For example, if northern Italy is 15% J2 and 60% R1b-U152... then that's a J2:R1b(u152) ratio of 1:4 in northern Italy. So if 5% of Alsace is J2, could 20% of the R1b-U152 in Alsace be from the 500 year-long Roman settlement? And if we assume maybe half of the soldiers in Alsace were not from the Italian peninsula, maybe 2.5% of the J2 was brought from the Italian peninsula and at a ratio of 1:4 then 10% of u152 in Alsace currently could be of Roman/Italian peninsula origin?

    If you understand me great, if not let me know and I will try to be clearer.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano57 View Post
    Forgive my difficulty I have expressing my thoughts, English is not my first language. Does anybody have any up-to-date info on the Alsace/Argentoratum region? I'm interested in this region because this is where Roman settlement is not known much in genetics due to the fact that they have the same R1b as Italy (u152).

    I see that Alsace was a large Roman military settlement for 500 years as well as a major center of viticulture important to the Roman Empire.

    Is the low level of J2 in Alsace because most of the merchants/soldiers in that time span probably came from northern/central Italy where R1b-u152 is highest already?

    We look at Italy, and R1b-U152 is high in the north and central regions (of course it's high all over Italy). So if the majority haplogroup in Alsace (u152) is the same as the majority haplogroup in northern/central Italy (u152), don't you think Roman settlement left a bigger impact than a mere 5% J2 that is implied in Alsace? Do you get what I'm saying? Argentoratum was Gaulish, and Gaulish Italian as well as other Italian soldiers and merchants probably came and mixed since they were similar to the Gaulish people of Argentoratum.

    If Romans brought and left the 5% J2 in Alsace, then they probably left a more significant amount of R1b-U152 there too because J2 is less frequent in north/central Italy than u152 already? But we can't tell that because Alsace was already mostly R1b-u152 already. So if we can't tell from DNA, can't we guess how much of an impact the Romans had in Alsace with ratios? For example, if northern Italy is 15% J2 and 60% R1b-U152... then that's a J2:R1b(u152) ratio of 1:4 in northern Italy. So if 5% of Alsace is J2, could 20% of the R1b-U152 in Alsace be from the 500 year-long Roman settlement? And if we assume maybe half of the soldiers in Alsace were not from the Italian peninsula, maybe 2.5% of the J2 was brought from the Italian peninsula and at a ratio of 1:4 then 10% of u152 in Alsace currently could be of Roman/Italian peninsula origin?

    If you understand me great, if not let me know and I will try to be clearer.
    It seems possible I think, but keep in mind that the haplogroup ratio was probably very different in Italy in the past. R1b was likely less widespread than it is today, due to R1b men having a higher chance of fathering a boy than all other Y-haplogroups.

  3. #3
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-09
    Posts
    196
    Points
    6,396
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,396, Level: 23
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L705.2/L159.2/Z220
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H*

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    ... R1b was likely less widespread than it is today, due to R1b men having a higher chance of fathering a boy than all other Y-haplogroups.
    I've read that several times on this forum, but is there any real empirical evidence or that it statistically significant.

    I don't consider a couple I2 guys and R1b guys in a cave in Lichenstein as any kind of representative evidence of ancient Europe. About all you can say is that this is proof they both existed in that area at the time.
    ... oh, by the way, the Lichenstein Cave was found with Urnfield items. Keep that in mind.

  4. #4
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-09
    Posts
    196
    Points
    6,396
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,396, Level: 23
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L705.2/L159.2/Z220
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H*

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano57 View Post
    Forgive my difficulty I have expressing my thoughts, English is not my first language. Does anybody have any up-to-date info on the Alsace/Argentoratum region? I'm interested in this region because this is where Roman settlement is not known much in genetics due to the fact that they have the same R1b as Italy (u152).

    I see that Alsace was a large Roman military settlement for 500 years as well as a major center of viticulture important to the Roman Empire.

    Is the low level of J2 in Alsace because most of the merchants/soldiers in that time span probably came from northern/central Italy where R1b-u152 is highest already?

    We look at Italy, and R1b-U152 is high in the north and central regions (of course it's high all over Italy). So if the majority haplogroup in Alsace (u152) is the same as the majority haplogroup in northern/central Italy (u152), don't you think Roman settlement left a bigger impact than a mere 5% J2 that is implied in Alsace? Do you get what I'm saying? Argentoratum was Gaulish, and Gaulish Italian as well as other Italian soldiers and merchants probably came and mixed since they were similar to the Gaulish people of Argentoratum.

    If Romans brought and left the 5% J2 in Alsace, then they probably left a more significant amount of R1b-U152 there too because J2 is less frequent in north/central Italy than u152 already? But we can't tell that because Alsace was already mostly R1b-u152 already. So if we can't tell from DNA, can't we guess how much of an impact the Romans had in Alsace with ratios? For example, if northern Italy is 15% J2 and 60% R1b-U152... then that's a J2:R1b(u152) ratio of 1:4 in northern Italy. So if 5% of Alsace is J2, could 20% of the R1b-U152 in Alsace be from the 500 year-long Roman settlement? And if we assume maybe half of the soldiers in Alsace were not from the Italian peninsula, maybe 2.5% of the J2 was brought from the Italian peninsula and at a ratio of 1:4 then 10% of u152 in Alsace currently could be of Roman/Italian peninsula origin?

    If you understand me great, if not let me know and I will try to be clearer.
    Although U152 was probably present in the heart of the Roman Empire and spread to some degree with it, I don't think we can assume U152's high frequency area up and down the Rhine Valley aligns with some Roman movement up the Rhine. See Richard Rocca's excellent web site and mapping at http://u152.org/

    Richard thinks U152 was a relatively late comer to Italy, and came as part of the Bell Beaker folks and later the Urnfielders.

    So in fact, the Rhine and Rhone valleys may be home. P312 diversity is quite in SE France and U152's diversity is as high, if not higher, in the Alps and Transalpine Gaul (Gaul on the other side of the Alps) as it is in Cisapline Gaul (Gaul on this (Italian) side of the Alps.) Before the Gallic Wars, North Italy was Gaul too.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-11-12
    Posts
    11
    Points
    943
    Level
    7
    Points: 943, Level: 7
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 7
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    ItaloCeltic
    Country: United States



    duplicate post

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-11-12
    Posts
    11
    Points
    943
    Level
    7
    Points: 943, Level: 7
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 7
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    ItaloCeltic
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Although U152 was probably present in the heart of the Roman Empire and spread to some degree with it, I don't think we can assume U152's high frequency area up and down the Rhine Valley aligns with some Roman movement up the Rhine. See Richard Rocca's excellent web site and mapping at

    Richard thinks U152 was a relatively late comer to Italy, and came as part of the Bell Beaker folks and later the Urnfielders.

    So in fact, the Rhine and Rhone valleys may be home. P312 diversity is quite in SE France and U152's diversity is as high, if not higher, in the Alps and Transalpine Gaul (Gaul on the other side of the Alps) as it is in Cisapline Gaul (Gaul on this (Italian) side of the Alps.) Before the Gallic Wars, North Italy was Gaul too.
    From what I've understood here and from Maciamo is that U152 is an Italic and Celtic marker and occurred before their split. Do you believe that's correct?

    And don't you think a 500 year settlement is enough to leave a greater genetic impact than 5% J2 in Alsace? That's not just a migration of a few people but an occupation by the thousands. Argentoratum was a major settlement and was said to be a melting pot and closer to Italy than most of the other ones. And according to argentoratum.c om, because of Germanic attacks, the civilians of Argentoratum had to "crowd into the fortress for protection" which is a sure point there was some mixing going on there. And I thought if there's only 5% J2 left from a major Roman outpost and legion headquarters, then surely there must be some northern Italian Gaul/Italic left behind that we can't identify since Italics and Celts are so closely related.

    And maybe a lot of the Roman DNA was diluted by the Germanic invasions after Rome fell? U152 first occurred right around this area (Alsace) and yet is less common there now than other places. So if the Germanics diluted the U152 after Rome fell, then they must've also diluted the J2, E, etc the Romans left in the region.

  7. #7
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-09
    Posts
    196
    Points
    6,396
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,396, Level: 23
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L705.2/L159.2/Z220
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H*

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano57 View Post
    From what I've understood here and from Maciamo is that U152 is an Italic and Celtic marker and occurred before their split. Do you believe that's correct?
    I think it is quite possible U152 people, speaking Western Centum IE dialects, straddled multiple cultures, some of which developed into Celtic speakers and some into Italic. This is just an hypothesis, though, not a given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano57 View Post
    And don't you think a 500 year settlement is enough to leave a greater genetic impact than 5% J2 in Alsace? That's not just a migration of a few people but an occupation by the thousands.
    I don't know the impact of a 500 year settlement in Alsace. I suppose it depends a lot upon when, how successful, and then who and how successful were the successor cultures. We should keep the Roman settlement in context of thousands of years of inhabitants prior to them and close to 2000 years since then. 500 years isn't a lot of time. I think most consider London to be founded by the Romans, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it to reflect a large amount of Roman DNA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano57 View Post
    then surely there must be some northern Italian Gaul/Italic left behind that we can't identify since Italics and Celts are so closely related.
    It is true they must have some share haplogroups and U152 could be one. Celts and Italics weren't necessarily friends. During the Gallic Wars, Rome did great, great damage to the Gauls.


    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano57 View Post
    And maybe a lot of the Roman DNA was diluted by the Germanic invasions after Rome fell? U152 first occurred right around this area (Alsace) and yet is less common there now than other places. So if the Germanics diluted the U152 after Rome fell, then they must've also diluted the J2, E, etc the Romans left in the region.
    ...and there were the Gauls and nearby Belgae, whatever they were.

    What kinds of J2 and E are you speaking of? These haplogroups are often associated with expansion in Europe during the Neolithic. How do we know the J2 and E is Roman?

    Maybe we need to backup a bit. What do you mean by Roman? Do you mean a true descendant of the original Latin League that stopped the Etruscans? You don't mean anyone who fought in a Roman army, do you?

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-11-12
    Posts
    11
    Points
    943
    Level
    7
    Points: 943, Level: 7
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 7
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    ItaloCeltic
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I think it is quite possible U152 people, speaking Western Centum IE dialects, straddled multiple cultures, some of which developed into Celtic speakers and some into Italic. This is just an hypothesis, though, not a given.



    I don't know the impact of a 500 year settlement in Alsace. I suppose it depends a lot upon when, how successful, and then who and how successful were the successor cultures. We should keep the Roman settlement in context of thousands of years of inhabitants prior to them and close to 2000 years since then. 500 years isn't a lot of time. I think most consider London to be founded by the Romans, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it to reflect a large amount of Roman DNA.



    It is true they must have some share haplogroups and U152 could be one. Celts and Italics weren't necessarily friends. During the Gallic Wars, Rome did great, great damage to the Gauls.




    ...and there were the Gauls and nearby Belgae, whatever they were.

    What kinds of J2 and E are you speaking of? These haplogroups are often associated with expansion in Europe during the Neolithic. How do we know the J2 and E is Roman?

    Maybe we need to backup a bit. What do you mean by Roman? Do you mean a true descendant of the original Latin League that stopped the Etruscans? You don't mean anyone who fought in a Roman army, do you?
    I mean Italian from the peninsula. We hear so much about the Celts and Germanics in Italy throughout history even after Rome but never Italians elsewhere. We know much about the Normans settling in Sicily and the Germans in regions like Abruzzo because of Italy's record keeping possibly? I know there were noble families migrating a bit between Alsace/Lorraine/Burgundy and Tuscany/northern Italy in the middle ages. But I want to know if there was any significant migrations from Italy to there or elsewhere in central Europe. I thought Rome would be a given but not? I believe there must've been some decent migrations between Cisalpine Gaul and the rest of Gaul, right? Could perhaps these migrations between Gaulish Italy and Gaulish France have contributed to J2 and E levels in France that we see levels of above average in central France too? France is after all the most Romanized country outside of Italy.

    And I think according to Maciamo J2 is likely to do with Romans because its distribution matches the Roman Empire's boundaries quite well. And perhaps within those boundaries, the places that had Roman military outposts will likely have higher J2 than other parts of the country. The reason Alsace doesn't is maybe because they were on the border of Gauls and Germanics and were diluted by Germanics after Rome fell because the Alemanni came into Alsace and took over. So I think Alsace was previously much more J2 and E and U152 because of Argentoratum settlement. And I think many were Italian in Argentoratum not only because of Gaulish northern Italy and Gaul itself, still being not far from each other... and also the viticulture economy... but because the legion stationed in Alsace was called Augustus VIII, who changed their name to First Italic Legion. And according to somewhere (I forget where) I was reading that usually a legion under the name Italic was mainly recruited from Italy itself.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-01-11
    Posts
    40
    Points
    7,913
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,913, Level: 26
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 237
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a1b3 aka R1b

    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    I agree with you Giordano.

    I`m a member of U152* subclade L2-, Z36-, DYS492=12 (probably Z56-).
    Because of some off-modal DYS values I have found 10 families (surnames) in our group.
    5 are British with origins in the Border-Reiver region near Hadrian wall, three are situated in Germany(2 in south-west Germany including me, one unknown), one in Italy and one in Palestine.
    I suppose the last common ancestor was a Roman soldier in Arae Flaviae (modern name Rottweil) in south-west Germany. (Legio IX)

  10. #10
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-09
    Posts
    196
    Points
    6,396
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,396, Level: 23
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L705.2/L159.2/Z220
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H*

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by geiserich View Post
    I agree with you Giordano.

    I`m a member of U152* subclade L2-, Z36-, DYS492=12 (probably Z56-).
    Because of some off-modal DYS values I have found 10 families (surnames) in our group.
    5 are British with origins in the Border-Reiver region near Hadrian wall, three are situated in Germany(2 in south-west Germany including me, one unknown), one in Italy and one in Palestine.
    I suppose the last common ancestor was a Roman soldier in Arae Flaviae (modern name Rottweil) in south-west Germany. (Legio IX)
    Have you found haplotypes that match from Italy?

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-01-11
    Posts
    40
    Points
    7,913
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,913, Level: 26
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 237
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a1b3 aka R1b

    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    My Italian mach is "Ponte" from Genua, Italy

  12. #12
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-09
    Posts
    196
    Points
    6,396
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,396, Level: 23
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L705.2/L159.2/Z220
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H*

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by geiserich View Post
    My Italian mach is "Ponte" from Genua, Italy
    Genoa is Ligurian territory, right?

    What do you think of Rocca's hypotheses on u152.org?

    Please consider testing for Z56 (edit Z56 is right).
    Last edited by Mikewww; 05-01-13 at 23:34.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-01-11
    Posts
    40
    Points
    7,913
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,913, Level: 26
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 237
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a1b3 aka R1b

    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    I suppose you mean Z56.
    But this SNP is connected with DYS492=14, so we are propably Z56-.
    I think the origin of U152 is not clear today, we need more data.

  14. #14
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-09
    Posts
    196
    Points
    6,396
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,396, Level: 23
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L705.2/L159.2/Z220
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H*

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano57 View Post
    I mean Italian from the peninsula. We hear so much about the Celts and Germanics in Italy throughout history even after Rome but never Italians elsewhere. We know much about the Normans settling in Sicily and the Germans in regions like Abruzzo because of Italy's record keeping possibly? I know there were noble families migrating a bit between Alsace/Lorraine/Burgundy and Tuscany/northern Italy in the middle ages. But I want to know if there was any significant migrations from Italy to there or elsewhere in central Europe. I thought Rome would be a given but not? I believe there must've been some decent migrations between Cisalpine Gaul and the rest of Gaul, right? Could perhaps these migrations between Gaulish Italy and Gaulish France have contributed to J2 and E levels in France that we see levels of above average in central France too? France is after all the most Romanized country outside of Italy.

    And I think according to Maciamo J2 is likely to do with Romans because its distribution matches the Roman Empire's boundaries quite well. And perhaps within those boundaries, the places that had Roman military outposts will likely have higher J2 than other parts of the country. The reason Alsace doesn't is maybe because they were on the border of Gauls and Germanics and were diluted by Germanics after Rome fell because the Alemanni came into Alsace and took over. So I think Alsace was previously much more J2 and E and U152 because of Argentoratum settlement. And I think many were Italian in Argentoratum not only because of Gaulish northern Italy and Gaul itself, still being not far from each other... and also the viticulture economy... but because the legion stationed in Alsace was called Augustus VIII, who changed their name to First Italic Legion. And according to somewhere (I forget where) I was reading that usually a legion under the name Italic was mainly recruited from Italy itself.
    J2 and E may be useful markers in some locations in indicating a Roman Army had been there. They would be considered "diagnostic" markers in that case. However, J2 and E are very large old haplogroups so just because you are J2 or E in Europe is not very conclusive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Haplogroup J2 is thought to have appeared somewhere in the Middle East towards the end of the last glaciation, between 15,000 and 22,000 years ago. Its present geographic distribution argue in favour of a Neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent.
    Haplogroup E is also quite old. I would necessarily say its frequency map overlays the Roman Empire, though.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...96_%28Y-DNA%29

    We need to down to much deeper subclade levels to try to ascertain who might have come from the Italian Peninsula during the Roman Empire. I think Geiserich is trying to do this by looking at his deeper U152 SNP results and key markers, like apparently for him, DYS492.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Genoa is Ligurian territory, right?

    What do you think of Rocca's hypotheses on u152.org?

    Please consider testing for Z56 (edit Z56 is right).


    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    ancient late bronzeage and early iron age ligurian areas
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  16. #16
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-09
    Posts
    196
    Points
    6,396
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,396, Level: 23
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L705.2/L159.2/Z220
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H*

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by geiserich View Post
    I suppose you mean Z56.
    But this SNP is connected with DYS492=14, so we are propably Z56-.
    I think the origin of U152 is not clear today, we need more data.
    You probably are Z56- but you don't know if you don't test. There is supposed to be a lot of Z56 in the area so I'd want to make sure. Z56 is definitely old enough to have various values for DYS492. STRs are not completely reliable.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-11-12
    Posts
    11
    Points
    943
    Level
    7
    Points: 943, Level: 7
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 7
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    ItaloCeltic
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    J2 and E may be useful markers in some locations in indicating a Roman Army had been there. They would be considered "diagnostic" markers in that case. However, J2 and E are very large old haplogroups so just because you are J2 or E in Europe is not very conclusive.


    Haplogroup E is also quite old. I would necessarily say its frequency map overlays the Roman Empire, though.


    We need to down to much deeper subclade levels to try to ascertain who might have come from the Italian Peninsula during the Roman Empire. I think Geiserich is trying to do this by looking at his deeper U152 SNP results and key markers, like apparently for him, DYS492.

    I agree there was some J2 and E before Roman Empire expansion but I think Rome added to it more. I also think that during Roman times, J2 and E was much higher in Argentoratum/Alsace than it is today. I think the Germanics greatly diluted the Roman era genetics in Alsace.

    Argentoratum was a permanent Roman military and civilian settlement. It was said to be a melting pot of about 10-18,000 people and compared to other settlements, it was close to Cisalpine Gaul/northern Italy so there was probably migration. Argentoratum also had much wine that was very valuable and well-liked in Rome so there were probably many people coming to Argentoratum from Cisalpine Gaul and rest of northern Italy and possibly Rome itself.


    (from argentoratum website)
    "Wine and life
    The wine amphoras coming from Italy and of Gaulle Southerner are very numerous at the time of Claude and Néron : the use of the wine is with its apogee. Dumoins that coming from Campanie and other traditional producing areas, since it is thought that after 70 the drunk wine with Argentorate came from Gaulle and was transported out of barrels."

    "Population
    Little before this time the arrival IIème legion undoubtedly has triplet the population to go up to 18 000 inhabitants. The density of the ceramic marks stronger and the transfer of the cemetery towards the west to Koenigshoffen are there to prove it. The floods of 50/60 and sets fire to it of 70 brought back the city to the surrounding of 16 000 hearts.
    The purpose of work of enlarging of Argentorate by the 21st legion also was to support, with the accesses of the city, the concentration in the new civil districts of a heterogeneous population and multiraciale."

    This I'm a little curious of but don't know whether true or not; I have heard that Ligurian tribes made their way up to present day Alsace. Does anybody know anything regarding that? Judging from the map of Ligurians above, Alsace isn't too far away.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    100 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    09-07-13
    Posts
    13
    Points
    242
    Level
    2
    Points: 242, Level: 2
    Level completed: 92%, Points required for next Level: 8
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: USA - Florida



    When you say Roman, do you mean just people from the Italian Peninsula or does that include Roman soldiers from other regions ie. Thrace?

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    100 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    09-07-13
    Posts
    13
    Points
    242
    Level
    2
    Points: 242, Level: 2
    Level completed: 92%, Points required for next Level: 8
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: USA - Florida



    The reason I ask is I have E1b1b1 ancestry that ended up in Great Britain. Believed to have been introduced by a Roman soldier from Thrace.

  20. #20
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,578
    Points
    64,082
    Level
    78
    Points: 64,082, Level: 78
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 768
    Overall activity: 38.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    These ancient samples available to date were ethnic Romans in my opinion:

    Collegno94 - kit number ZQ6809113
    Collegno23 - kit number UU5731879
    Collegno121 - kit number GL9210858
    Collegno36 - kit number WU7470506
    Szolad28 - kit number AW3972989
    Szolad32 - kit number UU6914129
    Szolad36 - kit number BY5848416
    Szolad43 - kit number JH3368939

    These were probably Greeks or South Italian or other immigrants up north:

    Szolad19 - kit number QA1470938
    Szolad40 - kit number TZ5280008
    Collegno25 - kit number QD2543537
    Collegno30 - kit number NZ1152016
    Collegno38 - kit number SW6326785

    And this one was probably some sort of Daco-Thracian or Illyrian etc.:

    Szolad37 - kit number BF8929036

    The rest of Collegno and Szolad samples were Germanic, Celtic, and mixed.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •