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Thread: Are R1a and R1b really Indo-Europeans ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Both Roman and Slavic influence to Greek language is Heavy,
    especially in Greece, and Magna Grecia Italy.
    but is less in Smyrna (old Ionia and Pergamos and Ephessus) and almost zero in Pontus (Trebizond empire)
    while Cyprus is tottaly out of Slavic but heavily influenced from Syrria and British
    that is why Tsakonika and Pontic Greek kept sound and forms closest to ancient Greek.
    as you see Greek is not the language of Greece, but a language that still is spoken from Italy to almost Georgia and Ucraine and from cyprus to Marselle
    Crimean Greek is the most Slavicized Greek dialect, but strangely Ahtopol Greek (Thrace) is not so much.
    I found this very interesting, thanks.

    lets see, does the word Kara in Balto-slavic means also soldier? captain? we say that word Tsar (Car) is after ceasar, but is it?
    Yenicaries means new army, new soldiers (Yeni+car) could that word kara or car in Slavic be from Turkic origin Lebrok?
    This actually have so much guessing on your part that is hard to start somewhere.
    I'm not sure where you always get Slavic vocabulary from, but it is wrong again. "kara" doesn't mean anything in Balto-Slavic, but perhaps something in Bulgarian slavic, which was exposed heavily to Turkic.
    Car (polish), Tsar (sound C is pronounced Ts, that's why it is written Tsar in English) IIRC, was used first in Bulgaria around 800 CE (AD), therefor way before Ottoman occupation. Then has spread with Orthodox church to Russia and Serbia. Car in old slavic it was Czar (pronounced Char - english), is also used in slavic word Czarodiej (miracle maker) meaning a wizard in english (which in turn comes form arabic Vesir, which was probably picked up in India from Indian scholars by Arabs, together with "arabic" numbers. Vesir has IE roots, Vis - to see in IE.
    So it looks like Tsar is a slavic title, used to denote pegen religious leader, shaman. Later used in title as leader of Orthodox church in Bulgaria and Russia, where king was both, head of state and head of church, like in England.
    In Catholic Slavic countries like Poland, there was never Tsar, only kings who were never church leaders, Pope was.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    It is likely that Greeks and Armenians had a form of medieval ethnic consciousness with deeper historical roots. The Hellenized Anatolians, like the Hellenized Balkanians perhaps did not have this ethnic consciousness. Just like the Spanish speaking people in the Americas don't really feel Spanish, the (inland) Anatolians and Balkanians didn't feel Greek (or Armenian in case of Anatolia). So it was easy for them to embrace a new identity.
    .
    It makes total sense to me.
    I think in case of Slavs, Turks or Germanics, they were warrior farmers. When they conquered, they took best agrarian lands over from locals. There main economy was food production. This forced first local villages to learn slavic, to be able to work fields for new masters. Also having both slavic or turkic in Anatolia and local villages, side by side, sped up the mixing and learning process. I'm sure the cities, in this case, with predominantly Greeks and Armenians, survived the longest.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 18-01-13 at 03:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    With minority invaders, the language shift happens much faster in their main centers like cities, ports and economic centers. Places where you need to know language of invaders to do business, politics or get job in general.
    The situation of Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, or Caribean islands, where Europeans were in majority is simple to explain. For the rest of South America Spanish was probably in minority and spoken in big centers mostly. In these countries, most of villages were speaking original language till 20th century till the times of public education, some still do. The further from economic centers the easier for original language to survive. Maybe learning of new language is about jobs mostly? Most likely it was exactly the case how Romans spread Latin language, by economy and jobs. Same with British Empire.
    Also in may situations conquered countries consisted of many tribes speaking different languages. It was also useful for them to learn the main language, the conqueror's, to communicate with other tribes. Exactly why we all learn English these days, the lingua franca of modern world.


    PS. All this writing gave me an idea that if IE came to Europe with strong economic advantage like wagons and bronze smelting abilities that gave them an edge in creating strong economic centers and influence IE language learning among locals, through out all Europe. It means that they didn't need to kill and terrorize all of them to learn IE.

    PS2. Thanks to above PS my post is no longer off topic, hehe, at least somewhat.
    I'm "weak" concerning the problem or hellenic language and Anatolia - But for common sense I agree that languages changes need always some conditions - militar force, apparently, has less impact than economic (& trade) power - and towns adopt faster the language of foreign power , a sa rule - concerning greek colonies in the anatolian-Black Sea area, Greeks keep on with their tradition of rather maritime traders, for I know, so shores "comptpoirs" - Maybe am I wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I'm "weak" concerning the problem or hellenic language and Anatolia - But for common sense I agree that languages changes need always some conditions - militar force, apparently, has less impact than economic (& trade) power - and towns adopt faster the language of foreign power , a sa rule - concerning greek colonies in the anatolian-Black Sea area, Greeks keep on with their tradition of rather maritime traders, for I know, so shores "comptpoirs" - Maybe am I wrong?
    You made a good point. The Greeks situated around the coast were a maritime nation. The Slavs and Turks were not. As a maritime nation you have certain advantages like trade, more wealth, cross-cultural communication and probably a higher literacy rate. Ofcourse this all has an impact on the ethnic consciousness of the people. It is no surprise that Byzantine control of the interior of the Balkans and Anatolia was lost many times to foreign invaders, prior to the Slavs and Turks.

    And it is one thing for warrior farmers to assimilate indigenous farmers, while it is another thing for warrior farmers to assimilate seafares and traders.
    Yet, we should also note that the Turks did not assimilate the Slavs who were mostly farmers and not a maritime nation. So ethnic consciousness also plays an important role. Not just religion. Apparently, the Slavs like the Greeks from the coastal areas of Asia minor had a strong sense of identity. Something the Hellenized (Christian) Anatolians or the Hellenized Balkanians (prior to the arrival of the Slavs) lacked.
    Last edited by Dianatomia; 18-01-13 at 01:15.

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    I think its time again to express my point of View,

    fact 1
    the Arsenic bronze road is until today something that we can not pass.
    But Arsenic bronze is what time? 2800-3500 BC
    when Balkans were already fortified Vinca, cities build, gold discovered, and something that we must remark, Irrigation in agriculture.

    Yet Myceneans in Greece if we compare Vatin, Vucedol, etc seems to be in 1900-2300, almost same time that Bronze enter the British Islands, so from Serbia to Greece and minor Asia they made same time as from Serbia to Britain???

    fact 2
    no matter I gave Summerian connectivity with IE and everyone observe it with his personal view, (that is good, means many opignions)
    Nobody ever seen how much Summerian exist in IE, that means that early agricultural- farming was already in Europe and probably spoke a minor Asian language a close to Summerian? or an IE?

    Fact 3
    Sachs Achaians Saxons etc, if Gaul is after Summerian Gallu and also means the same, means that these tribes were warriors.

    Fact 4
    except NW Europe all hunters-gatherers do not speak IE, that means IE were not from North neither Hunters gatherers,
    so what were they? from so much expansion we don't believe that warriors travel deserts and lived in tents or mud in winter just to kill or take the women from India to steppe, they kill each other and have the women, so something else push them,
    if they were not Anatolian like farmers then?
    the only answer to roaming like tribes is Breeders- Shepherds, Shepherds had tribes and were trained as warriors to protect their families and floaks,
    that cognates also with Αιγαιον Aegean = goats Getae = goat people maybe Goths?
    same way we see that Uralian reindeer farmers occupy and spread at far North Europe.
    so we must search on early sheperds,
    minor Asia mountains (Zagros, Pontus Mountains, Kragos), Romania-Serbia-Bulgaria mountains, Armenia and Caucasus are good points, since in mountains irrigation and farming is poor so breeders is a good ecomnomical solution.

    Fact 5
    from Varna we see
    i) Gold Mettalurgy started in Balkans and went to minor Asia to steppes
    ii) Kurgans and burry the dead with weapons is not a steppe culture, but a Balkanic one, which went to minor Asia and from there to steppe with gold mettalurgy,
    Steppe people they did not burry their dead, as we see from Altaic mountains to India
    so since gold and Kurgans moved to steppe before arsenic bronze, why not Steppe got IEsed?
    we see Tocharians Building burial chumbers that moder Kings and presidents would Envy, how come they did so if they were not Rulers at that lands? we say that IE at 3000 Bc about and spread IE via force.
    I ASK HOW TOCHARIANS BUILD THESE HUGE CHAMBERS WITH OUT BEING RULERS OR STRONGER THAN STEPPE PEOPLE?

    so the ones who had Arsenic bronze manage to pass a steppe language to Varna Vinca etc people and minor Asia-middle East Iran India Europe, but the ones who ruled before the steppe people did not manage to change their language?

    Fact 6
    The chariot,
    chariot is a good transport for people and merchants and farmers, it can carry the crop of the day as also the goods of a merchant
    chariot is a good weapon at battle but where and what time?
    I mean do you believe that charriot was invended for war first? or for farming and merchant reasons?
    do you know how many battles were lost due to mud? why to use a charriot as a weapon in the muds of european steppe?
    even today steppe people use the horse without chariot many times, Scythians had Chariots?

    To finalize
    I might agree that early Neolithic farming could not spoke IE but another Anatolian language, closer to Summerian since there is not other connectivity from Summerian to Europe.
    but what about another farming boom with irrigation later?
    I agree that IE had something like warriors-rulers class but they did not spread IE, it is most wise to me to say that IE were roaming Breeders, warriors at 3000 BC would not travel from La-tene to Britain for women, or to build cities with huge stones

    but for the rest let me keep my doubts,
    which become stronger when I looked Varna's tombs


    PS
    playing devils advocate is hard.
    Cooper Κυπρος was discovered much before steppe people entered Europe, I wonder who had the advantage that time?
    Alternative in Greek is chalkos the root chall or Hall is also found in many metalls and also in many toponymes and also in many IE tribes
    Last edited by Yetos; 18-01-13 at 08:53.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It makes total sense to me.
    I think in case of Slaves, Turks or Germanics, they were warrior farmers. When they conquered, they took best agrarian lands over from locals. There main economy was food production. This forced first local villages to learn slavic, to be able to work fields for new masters. Also having both slavic or turkic in Anatolia and local villages, side by side, sped up the mixing and learning process. I'm sure the cities, in this case, with predominantly Greeks and Armenians, survived the longest.
    Not exactly,
    it seems they took a tax of products in order to protect them from invaders,
    that is a clear warrior class rulling system, compare Sparta warriors and eilotes

    Possesion of land even in after Roman Greeks was not a good Idea,
    it mainly has to Roman Villas and later Christianity,

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    I would like to pick up some earlier ideas here:

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    PS. All this writing gave me an idea that if IE came to Europe with strong economic advantage like wagons and bronze smelting abilities that gave them an edge in creating strong economic centers and influence IE language learning among locals, through out all Europe. It means that they didn't need to kill and terrorize all of them to learn IE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kentel View Post
    Here is a quote from a text I read on the eupedia webpage devoted to genetics :

    The Indo-Europeans' bronze weapons and horses would have given them a tremendous advantage over the autochthonous inhabitants of Europe, namely the native haplogroup I (descendant of Cro-Magnon), and the early Neolithic herders and farmers (G2a, J2, E-V13 and T)

    The theory according to which superior and patriarcal IE horsemen (Dumézil's mannerbund) arrived in Europe and subjected a population of inoffensive matriarcal pre-IE peasants whose languages they eradicated, has been supported from the very beginning of the IE studies, mostly on ideological grounds (see f.ex. Demoulehttp://www.anti-rev.org/textes/Demoule99a/ andhttp://mapageweb.umontreal.ca/tuitek...SurMesure.html).

    This so-called invasionist model has moreover many flaws :

    Archaeologic:

    The debates are always been very vivid between linguists and archaeologists around the PIE question since archaeologists cannot really afford clear evidences to the conjectures of the linguists.

    1- There is no objective archaeological attestation of a massive migration in Europe during the Bronze Age, that is : no archaeological culture spreading from the Black Sea to Western Europe at this date. The only continuous cultural horizon which can be connected with a migration in Europe is the dispersal of farming which predates the Chalcolithic (see Renfrew). Kossina's, Childe's and Gimbuta's theories are purely speculative since they rest upon jumps from a culture to another (eg. from Kurgan I,II,III to Yamna to Baden + Globular Amphora to Corded Ware II + Bell-Beaker to Unetice to Tumulus to Urnfield + Halstatt etc.)
    One issue I have noticed with both Renfew and Alinei is that they seem to be harshly opposed to the Kurgan hypothesis on the grounds of it's implication of (pre-)historic violence. Furthermore, they all seem to be all too much inclined to make a connection between the Kurgan hypothesis and the "Aryan master race" bogus of the Nazis. Alinei finds quite obvious words there:

    The philosophy behind this theory is thus that the Proto-Indo-Europeans, far from being warriors who invaded and conquered Europe by sheer military force, are instead the inventors of farming, who conquered Europe by cultural and intellectual superiority. A philosophy which remains, in essence, eurocentric, even though the Proto-Indo-Europeans are now seen as the peaceful inventors of farming, instead of the warlike supermen of the traditional theory.
    Renfrew's book has unleashed a very lively international debate, which has been constantly growing, at the same time shifting its focus in response to growing objections. His theory, which owing to its focus on the Neolithic discontinuity can be called the Neolithic Discontinuity Theory (NDT), is undoubtedly superior to the traditional Invasion Theory, as far as it does eliminate the myth of the PIE Blitzkrieg against the peaceful Old Europeans. ( ... )
    The one strength, on the other hand, of the traditional hypothesis is that it functions with the traditional reconstruction of PIE in terms of its vocabulary. Which does not automatically mean that it's right, but it certainly avoids the intrinsic flaws that both the Neolithic and Paleolithic Continuity hypotheses have.

    So based on this, I would like to go back to what LeBrok said. If we stick with the approximate timeframe of the traditional model (that is, terminal Neolithic to Chalcolithic), we would be entitled to look for another mechanism to explain the expansion of the language family. And of course, connected with this is the question where the Proto-Indo-European was spoken before the language began to split up.

    Another big uncertainty, by the way, that we do not know in the genetics department is Haplogroup J2: we often assume it to be Neolithic in age (perhaps as a 'fellow traveller' of G2a, just like J1 and T), but as a matter of fact, we have not a single sample of J2 from any of the Neolithic sites. If J2 was anywhere in Europe in the Neolithic, it at the least couldn't have been anywhere outside the Balkans. I do not think that we can wholly dismiss the hypothesis entirely that J2 arrived in Europe only after the Neolithic, even though that would make it only more mysterious.

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    I wonder, after Varna Necropolis, and Leyla Teppe discoveries, how much worth Kurgan hypothesis?
    and why we connect kurgans with steppe, same time that, if IE, steppe people did not even burry the dead in the road to India (Ptolemy)
    I think Kurgan hypothesis just pass in History, it worked and was good indeed, but I don't think describes new archaiological discoveries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post

    Another big uncertainty, by the way, that we do not know in the genetics department is Haplogroup J2: we often assume it to be Neolithic in age (perhaps as a 'fellow traveller' of G2a, just like J1 and T), but as a matter of fact, we have not a single sample of J2 from any of the Neolithic sites. If J2 was anywhere in Europe in the Neolithic, it at the least couldn't have been anywhere outside the Balkans. I do not think that we can wholly dismiss the hypothesis entirely that J2 arrived in Europe only after the Neolithic, even though that would make it only more mysterious.
    I still think that J2 entered Europe in Neolithic as farmers. Looking at the J2 map it really shows early farmers spread mainly in South Europe. The reason is that their crops originated in Fertile Crescent and were not adapted to Norther European climate, or even Central. Also if their crops where more successful they would have had a big surplus of food, building strong civilizations in Europe, and first cities, and by this powers, spreading their J2 North. Looks like they were and remained to end of Neolithic, village farmers. I think that's the problem that we can't find their DNA yet.

    Neolithic was quite long, at least 6 thousand years. There might have been two or more separate waves of farmers from Fertile Crescent. Most likely they've spoke different languages therefore didn't mix well, living side by side. J2 will be found in different locations than G2a. Who knows, maybe they didn't buried their dead, making finding DNA more difficult.

    Looking at maps of the G2a, J1, J2 and T, they all look as they came in different waves, and didn't mix well for a very long time. Possible till Chalcolithic, or even bronze and iron age when people starting mixing on big scale in big cities, the first multicultural centers.

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    How about the cremation practice affecting the aDNA finds?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    One issue I have noticed with both Renfew and Alinei is that they seem to be harshly opposed to the Kurgan hypothesis on the grounds of it's implication of (pre-)historic violence. Furthermore, they all seem to be all too much inclined to make a connection between the Kurgan hypothesis and the "Aryan master race" bogus of the Nazis.
    The one strength, on the other hand, of the traditional hypothesis is that it functions with the traditional reconstruction of PIE in terms of its vocabulary. Which does not automatically mean that it's right, but it certainly avoids the intrinsic flaws that both the Neolithic and Paleolithic Continuity hypotheses have.
    You're right, but the Aryan bogus is based upon the Invasionist Model in itself. Grimm admitted that he was doing nationalist linguistics, and the considerations of Kossinna are typically racist - in fact they inspired the nazis. In a now out of print book published at the Presses Universitaires de France (and prefaced by Dumézil himself, by the way) in the 90's, Jean Haudry quoted Hans Gunther, a nazi raciolog, to support ideas such as IE's desire for conquest and need for wider spaces. And many guys like that whose mind went totally out of the track.

    On the contrary Renfrew is very factual : he asks, and I think that it is a pretty good question : why did the PIE urvolk was so eager to leave it's homeland ? The fantasmatic vision of "warlike supermen" (as Alinei called them) coming on horseback to fullfill their desire for conquest is obviously a complete delirium, hence the answer lies somewhere else.

    He suggested the spread with farming, but it does not work very well. But Renfrew's point of view seems very representative of the point of view of the archaeologs as a rule : they have the feeling that linguists want them to find facts which coincidate with their Invasionist theory, and they don't find them. So something goes wrong in the Aryan warriors story.

    Well, you have the notable exception of Gimbutas, but she locates the PIE urheimat approximately in the same area as the Baltic urheimat. She was Lituanian, by the way : certainly a coincidence. Curiously enough, you find many coincidences of that sort (Gamkrelidze & Ivanov locates the urheimat in the Caucasus, Kossinna put it in Germany, etc, there's a full list in Renfrew's).

    My feeling, and it is apparently the feeling of the archaeologs, is that none of these spread models is correct, and that the story is much more complicated than that. Renfrew's book (The Puzzle of IE Origins) is great, not for its own hypothesis, but because he discards very efficiently the Invasionist model.

    I have no idea how things happened. I am only convinced of one thing : the substrata played a great role in the story, and this fact is considered by none of the three academic hypothesis.

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    Here are some maps which draw the possible migrations routes of the R1 people. I havn't checked them yet but it looks quite interesting :

    Attachment 5805
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LN22s5ZNmw...rspreiding.jpg

    http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p380664/R1b_Migrations.jpg

    Attachment 5806
    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....ternR1b1b2.jpg
    Last edited by Kentel; 22-01-13 at 12:04.

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    Interesting. The third map has R1b smack over the top of Gobekli Tepe 12,000 years ago. I joked in earlier threads this would soon be the case...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentel View Post

    My feeling, and it is apparently the feeling of the archaeologs, is that none of these spread models is correct, and that the story is much more complicated than that. Renfrew's book (The Puzzle of IE Origins) is great, not for its own hypothesis, but because he discards very efficiently the Invasionist model.

    I have no idea how things happened. I am only convinced of one thing : the substrata played a great role in the story, and this fact is considered by none of the three academic hypothesis.
    The cold and dry weather, the little ice ages, played a real havoc on Steppes or north populations in general. At least from recent history and temperature recreation we started noticing a big correlation between big population movements and cooling trends, even collapse of civilizations.

    Temperature trends 2000 years, 2 lines (1873x800).jpg

    The fall of Roman empire and "squeezing" people out off the Steppe into Europe, coincides with cooling period. Even first attacks of Vikings happened during cooling trend of 800s. When population is big and food scarce, you round up a band of brothers and raid your neighbors to get their resources. When it gets really bad, you pack and lead your nation to better lands. It is helped by other tribes pushing on you from east and north, because they are hungry too.
    This fairly recent scenario might have been repetition of times when IE invaded Europe in huge numbers, when steppes were getting drier and drier between 3000 to 2000 BCE. Having bronze weapons and horses made their moves and invasions so much easier.

    To successfully implement this scenario, they had to bee already living in the Steppe (between Ukraine and central Asia) 5k year ago, to feel effect of cooling the most.

    800px-Greenland_Gisp2_Temperature.svg (1).jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    The cold and dry weather, the little ice ages, played a real havoc on Steppes or north populations in general. At least from recent history and temperature recreation we started noticing a big correlation between big population movements and cooling trends, even collapse of civilizations.
    Yes indeed; weather conditions is another forgotten aspect of the IE spread models, that's very true. Thanks for the file, it is very informative !


    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This fairly recent scenario might have been repetition of times when IE invaded Europe in huge numbers, when steppes were getting drier and drier between 3000 to 2000 BCE. Having bronze weapons and horses made their moves and invasions so much easier.

    To successfully implement this scenario, they had to bee already living in the Steppe (between Ukraine and central Asia) 5k year ago, to feel effect of cooling the most.
    About Gimbutas Model :

    That's Gimbutas theory (the connection with the Yamna Culture) but the horseriders' story is probably a myth based upon a misinterpretation of the Rig-Veda : Renfrew demonstrated on the basis of archaeologic finds that Kurgan people were not horsemen. At the best they used horses to bring material but they didn't ride them ; among other things, no stirrups nor snaffle bits have been found in the graves nor anywhere else. And these two pieces are a condition sine qua non for horseriding.

    horses :

    And I would had an argument : contrary to Taranis, I state that the word for "horse" is generally different in the IE languages. The *ekwos etymon doesn't work in many languages : English "horse" is "of unknown origins", Spanish "caballo" (= French "cheval, = Irish "capall", = Welsh "cefyll"), Danish "heste", Breton "marc'h" (= Welsh "march") as well. I am not sure but the Albanian kalë would not fit in *ekwos without dramatic manipulations. It tends to indicate that the PIE urvolk did not have a specific horse culture.

    dating :

    The date of 3000 BC for the migration start is purely arbitrary, there is nothing to support it. Thus the whole story is biased right from the beginning. It goes the same way for the horseriders : why should they have been horseriders by the way ?

    Hence, to me Gimbutas model does not hold. It has been so popular because it was the only model which coincidated with the theories of the linguists (Kosssina's Corded Ware spread did not fit with the horserider story).

    urvolk :

    To be a bit provocative (as I like to be and as Sparkey rightly stated :) ), I would also add : are we sure that a PIE urvolk ever existed ? We have clear linguistic convergences (although many of them are based upon heavily distorted interpretations), is it sufficient to declare that you had an urvolk and an urheimat and horses and bronze swords and conquest and the like ? Well, I don't think so. I don't discard the hypothesis of a PIE urvolk, I am just wondering, this is after all only a hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    (I might also bring up warrior/military terminology, but I'm somewhat sceptical with this: how 'peaceful' were Neolithic societies really?)
    Very good question. I think that you put the finger on a critical issue here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentel View Post
    urvolk :

    To be a bit provocative (as I like to be and as Sparkey rightly stated :) ), I would also add : are we sure that a PIE urvolk ever existed ? We have clear linguistic convergences (although many of them are based upon heavily distorted interpretations), is it sufficient to declare that you had an urvolk and an urheimat and horses and bronze swords and conquest and the like ? Well, I don't think so. I don't discard the hypothesis of a PIE urvolk, I am just wondering, this is after all only a hypothesis.
    I have similar doubts about all those proto-peoples as well, theories about existence of which are based on linguistic reconstructions. Based solely on language data one could argue that 'urvolk' of Latin Americans are Romans etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    I have similar doubts about all those proto-peoples as well, theories about existence of which are based on linguistic reconstructions. Based solely on language data one could argue that 'urvolk' of Latin Americans are Romans etc...
    And if you reconstruct proto-Romance on the basis of the Romance languages, you don't find Latin but something very different.

    Moreover, a significant amount of convergences is uncertain : here are a few objections as far as the lexicon is concerned :

    1-How much etymons have been heavily distorted, both semantically and phonetically (not talking about the supposed "echoic" and "taboo" words), in order to make them coincidate with their alleged reflexes ? At a glance, I would say more than 50%, maybe 70 or 80, it would be worth counting.

    2- How much regular evolutions are shared with OTHER language families (*do, to give, found in Ancient Egyptian, *h2ter, father, found in Inuit, etc)

    3- How much etymons are really shared by all the IE languages ? Very few, I think no more than 20 or 30.

    4- How much of these common roots were in fact wandering words ?

    If you take all these objections into consideration (and the Academia has never done it), you reduce dramatically the volume of the PIE lexicon. As for the grammar, there are obvious convergences...and huge discrepancies. See f.ex. the verb paradigm wich cannot really be reconstructed, and so many other issues of that kind.

    There are indeed a lot of convergences between the IE languages, this is not an hallucination. It cannot be coincidences, something happened, no doubt about that, but what ?

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    @ Kentel

    Gibutas model was working good until new discoveries.

    After Leyla teppe and Varna Necropolis archaological discoveries, only Arsenic bronze road from North Iran to Maykop to central Balkans is valid, since kurgans seems to be balkanic or minor Asia custom,
    but DID anyone ever notice the Gold mettalurgy road?
    DID anyones notice the burry with weapons culture road?
    these 2 are enough to reject kurgans as steppe culture

    now I said about Summerian and Akkadian in IE but was called a magician of words,
    but in my post in offtopic simmilar thread i give a good example on how Summerian and Uralian and IE have something strange,

    Post #62
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post402943

    that is a qood linguistic question,

    as also tthis. since Hettits were IE how come they had deity Illuwanka after Akkadian Semitic Illu (Greek Απολλων can be also from Akkadian-Semitic Illu?)
    finaly word Illum is IE or Phaun Φαεθων Φως or Sol Selios etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    I have similar doubts about all those proto-peoples as well, theories about existence of which are based on linguistic reconstructions. Based solely on language data one could argue that 'urvolk' of Latin Americans are Romans etc...
    Actually the American model, how IE spread over the whole America, is a great and well documented example how language, culture and DNA can take over a whole continent, and in scale of 500 years. We can even see the local differences, like different IE languages in geographical areas, coming in different waves and from different regions of Europe; English and French in North, Spanish and Portuguese in South. Still some local languages surviving in secluded areas. We see almost complete native population replacement in US, Canada, Argentina, Urugway. Still, majority of native people in many South american countries, but minority of IE's in power, politics and business, and slowly blending and mixing.
    How hard is it to imagine that this was a possible and valid scenario in Europe sometime in the past?

    That's Gimbutas theory (the connection with the Yamna Culture) but the horseriders' story is probably a myth based upon a misinterpretation of the Rig-Veda : Renfrew demonstrated on the basis of archaeologic finds that Kurgan people were not horsemen. At the best they used horses to bring material but they didn't ride them ; among other things, no stirrups nor snaffle bits have been found in the graves nor anywhere else. And these two pieces are a condition sine qua non for horseriding.
    That's true, and it probably doesn't matter much who invented what. The real advantage of inventions goes to the people who can improve it to the point of popularizing and mass use inventions on "industrial scale", either horses, wagons and bronze weapons. There is much better documented IE's move south to Middle East and India around 2,000 BC. Therefor there is no doubt that they were able to move West if chosen so.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 22-01-13 at 22:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @Kentel
    I mean considering that basquez is R1b population and Basquez language is Not IE, what do you believe? that Basquez is older or younger in Europe than IE?

    could R1b or R1a learn IE language at the past outside steppe?? and then spread it?
    That's an interesting question. Basque is undoubtedly not and IE language, it is undoubtedly indigeneous, and is massively R1b. Moreover I and G frequencies are very low in the area.

    Then, logically R1b is not IE, unless you find a bias to explain it.

    I think we should open a thread about Basque.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Actually the American model, how IE spread over the whole America, is a great and well documented example how language, culture and DNA can take whole over a continent, and in scale of 500 years. We can even see the local differences, like different IE languages in geographical areas, coming in different waves and from different regions of Europe; English and French in North, Spanish and Portuguese in South. Still some local languages surviving in secluded areas. We see almost complete native population replacement in US, Canada, Argentina, Urugway. Still, majority of native people in many South american countries, but minority of IE's in power, politics and business, and slowly blending and mixing.
    How hard is it to imagine that this was a possible and valid scenario in Europe sometime in the past?
    But those Europeans who took over Americas were not themselves genetically uniform, not even Englishmen, Spaniards or French taken apart were/are genetically homogenous and in case of proto-IE speakers people usually imply closely-tied community living on a restricted territory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentel View Post

    Then, logically R1b is not IE, unless you find a bias to explain it.

    .
    Globally R1b is partially IE. R1b entered Europe in few waves through couple of millenia, possibly not all IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    But those Europeans who took over Americas were not themselves genetically uniform, not even Englishmen, Spaniards or French taken apart were/are genetically homogenous and in case of proto-IE speakers people usually imply closely-tied community living on a restricted territory.
    Don't you think that people in past were mixed on lesser scale than today? The big mixing and big movements started with steady growth of population of farmers and herders and really accelerated through chalcolithinc, bronze and iron ages till present, where people from Africa can travel to Australia in 24 hours and start mixing. This is a clear evidence that with rise of civilizations that bring inventions, people travel more, more people travel, faster, further, mixing and mixing. One can follow this curve and end up with conclusion that in about a thousand years all world will be nicely mixed together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Don't you think that people in past were mixed on lesser scale than today? The big mixing and big movements started with steady growth of population of farmers and herders and really accelerated through chalcolithinc, bronze and iron ages till present, where people from Africa can travel to Australia in 24 hours and start mixing. This is a clear evidence that with rise of civilizations that bring inventions, people travel more, more people travel, faster, further, mixing and mixing. One can follow this curve and end up with conclusion that in about a thousand years all world will be nicely mixed together.
    Mixing is a fact of historical process (in the past peaceful mixing was rare btw) and by itself neutral, seeing it as nice or not is a matter of taste. But this is not the point. What I mean is that proto-IE, if it existed as such was just a lingua franca not a strictrly tribal/ethnic language...

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