Will all people of the world mix creating one race in the future?

[Kardu]

Stating facts is not proof of some "agenda", and I never brought politics into the discussion. As Maciamo and I said, there are parts of the world, more isolated, or with huge populations and little immigration, where differences will persist much longer, absent some cataclysmic event, but in North America, for example, given a thousand years or so there will be a new admixed group, and whatever the sad facts of human history, in the here and now I assure you it's not happening because of conquest or rape. It's propinquity.

It also has nothing to do with any personal preferences of mine. Heck, I'm so antediluvian that I keep plotting how to get my daughter a job in Italy for a year or so in hopes she'll come home with an Italian husband, but then I'm not quite "American"!

As for Caucasians and Near Easterners, perhaps this is news, but there are any number of people in this hobby, quite well known some of them, who indeed do not think they are "white" or members of the "white" race. Strangely enough, a few of them are themselves SSA admixed. Human psychology is endlessly fascinating.

If we're talking about further back, the ancestral groups that mixed to produce "Europeans" did not look very much like modern Europeans; indeed, some of them probably looked pretty "Australoid" or "South Indian", but then phenotypes change based on the environment. I doubt environmental factors will have much effect going forward, however, at least not in industrialized countries, as we rather control for the environment.

Under 'agenda' I meant more Lebrok's kind of position not you.

People can think about themselves whatever they like, but in strictly anthropological terms Georgians belong to Europeid metarace.

Whatever ancestors looked like, it is just fine how it is. I appreciate diversity, I don't want everybody to be part of some amorphic grey mass.

And again ancient mixing was due to conquest and rape. Today's mixing in cosmopolitan areas will never happen on large scale. Even in Brasil there is no mixing in higher classes who live in gated communities...

[Angela]

Under 'agenda' I meant more Lebrok's kind of position not you.

People can think about themselves whatever they like, but in strictly anthropological terms Georgians belong to Europeid metarace.

Whatever ancestors looked like, it is just fine how it is. I appreciate diversity, I don't want everybody to be part of some amorphic grey mass.

And again ancient mixing was due to conquest and rape. Today's mixing in cosmopolitan areas will never happen on large scale. Even in Brasil there is no mixing in higher classes who live in gated communities...

You're perfectly free to have your preferences; whatever floats your boat. That has nothing to do with the facts about racial admixture in the U.S., for which I've provided statistics. Nor does it have anything to do with attitudes in the U.S. The Pew Poll (a very respected group) has examined the issue in depth:

"Furthermore, the 2008 Pew Survey found more than a third of adults (35%) say they have a family member who is married to someone of a different race. And, most Americans say they approve of racial or ethnic intermarriage – not just in the abstract, but in their own families. More than six-in-ten say it would be fine with them if a family member told them they were going to marry someone from any of three major race/ethnic groups other than their own and over 70% approve of interacial marriage in general.^[4] "

The numbers will only increase in the younger generations. It's no doubt true that for people who choose to live in the Caucasus, or in the depths of southern India, or in internal China, the odds are that their children will indeed "inmarry". It will be different in more cosmopolitan parts of the world, whatever the parents think about it.

As to the people of the Caucasus, what anthropologists think is not dispositive for the average man on the street if that man happens to be a racist of the Nordicist persuasion. Of course, there are severe social and even economic consequences to expressing any such view in the U.S. today.

As to those Brazilians living in gated communities, like in other places in Latin America, they have anywhere up to 10% and more Amerindian and SSA; they just don't want to admit it. I've found it extremely interesting that some of the people most obsessed with who is lighter and darker, or who is more "exotic" in terms of Europeans or Near Easterners turn out to be of admixed ancestry themselves, even if they only recently discovered it. That is what comes of having been raised in societies where looking like a slave or an aborigine means you are relegated to a lower socio-economic status. I find it very sad. Of course, if one takes the long, objective view, if China all of a sudden conquered the world, you'd get people having eye surgery, flattening their noses and dying their hair pitch black. That's just human nature, alas.

You might find this John Hersey novel enlightening....great writers so often provide deep insights into human nature.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1495461.White_Lotus

[Kardu]

My main point is that tribalism, us vs. them group psychology is human nature (race based gangs in multicultural America anyone?). Even if current state of racial and ethnic situation will be somehow altered due to intensive globalist brainwashing politics, in its place new diverse groups will arise. There will be no one race in the future however remote (unless some global cataclysm reduces human population to minimum).

[Angela]

My main point is that tribalism, us vs. them group psychology is human nature (race based gangs in multicultural America anyone?). Even if current state of racial and ethnic situation will be somehow altered due to intensive globalist brainwashing politics, in its place new diverse groups will arise. There will be no one race in the future however remote (unless some global cataclysm reduces human population to minimum).

You keep repeating opinions unsupported and, to be fair, perhaps incapable of being supported by facts, and I keep providing you with facts which contradict those assertions, at least with regard to the U.S. Given that over 70% of Americans approve of inter-racial marriage, I think you could say that tribalism here, at least, is on the decline. Whether in the future this "new" tribe might be intolerant of other "tribes", I don't know. I have no great opinion of humanity, and I suppose it's perfectly possible that they'll do something stupid like that. Look at the Balkans, or, as an even better example, Northern Ireland. They're practically genetic clones of one another, and some of these men seem to positively relish this fratricidal warfare. It's all very depressing.

Oh, interesting that you think preaching tolerance of other groups and respect for one another's humanity is brainwashing. Perhaps it is, but what is racism? It's just brainwashing of another kind. Even if it feeds into the baser instincts of the id, does that mean we as a society should pander to it? What possible good would that do? People would be far better off getting an education, a decent job, marrying and having babies than letting some demagogues distract them from the real issues by deflecting all the blame onto some "other". Now there you have my actual opinion. :)

Perhaps it's best to agree to disagree.

[Kardu]

What education has to do with it? Unless you mean some liberal agenda education :)
The most racist persons in history were very educated folks.

I don't really believe those 'facts' which mostly stem from biased sources.

Preaching 'tolerance' usually is a subversive way to undermine targeted group's identity and security.

'Humanity' is a social construct.

[LeBrok]

Maciamo made some good points. There will always be isolated areas that remains more or less homogeneous. But am I correct to say that even in ancient admixtures have happened in high income economic areas of the world creating a new dimensions and standards in various aspects? Egypt, Mesopotamia (babylon and its chaotic languages, I think lebrok mentioned it at some point) Greece, Rome creating the mixtures we find today? Currently we have New york and London. I can only speak of London but being there you see people of all races in each and every part of its economy and I don't think that any of these cities would have achieved their present dynamics without so much mixing, new ideas and so on. Dubai is another one, and it hosts more outsiders then locals (with the difference that they will never be allowed to get citizenship there) China and India are maybe an exception, but then again I am not sure if they can be put on the same level as say New york or London. Of course there are many other cosmopolitan cities one can mention having the same effect. I think too much inbreeding, nationalism is more likely to make any nation weak in many aspects. Maybe I am wrong. Just thinking loud here.

We can easily add Singapore as a vibrant multicultural and economic hub, and proxy of the future world. Multiethnic pot and all speaking english.

[LeBrok]

I don't think that the world population will homogenize into a single ethnicity any time soon, or ever because of geographic barriers and isolation. There are always remote places where people don't mix with others, or at least at an extremely low rate. Look at Papua New Guinean tribes, Andaman Islanders, some Amazon tribes, etc.

Good point. Speed of mixing will vary. In big economic centers, which draw people from around the world, the process will be much faster. There will be always some enclaves resisting mixing. Be eat culturally or religiously insulated like Amish people.

If Andaman Islanders have managed to remain isolated from the outside world in crowded South Asia for perhaps 50,000 years, I doubt that such pockets of isolation will suddenly disappear.

Even if those isolated tribes gave up their traditional lifestyle and joined the rest of the world, it would take thousands of years before the whole world is racially homogeneous. The bigger the world population the more generations it takes to spread the genes. With vertical farming and other new technologies, the Earth could support over 30 billion people.

These places are insulated now, but in the future, when whole world will be developed, educated, and mobile these places will be wide exposed to the world. Unless more Amish type enclaves pope up to protect the purity of their race and culture.

In future world of robotics and 3D printers people will have even more time to travel, mingle, emigrate, move to different climatic zone, etc. This will help intermarriages dramatically.

In any case we would witness the creation of new ethnic group at the continental or regional scale, as has always happened. If you start in China with over 1 billion "pure" East Asians, you can't expect to end up with the same population in a few centuries as in sub-Saharan Africa where the starting population is "pure" African, no matter how much natural immigration.

Regional and continental mixing will be much more visible for a long time before final global race appears.

Then people do not choose to migrate to another country by accident. Mexicans typically choose to migrate to the USA, rarely to China or even Europe. And conversely very few Americans migrate to Mexico. Much more Africans migrate to Europe than the other way round, and it is typically to Western Europe, very rarely Eastern Europe. With such migration patterns, even if people mix perfectly across racial lines (which hasn't been the case even in the USA after 300 years of Blacks and Whites living together) the ending population in Western Europe would be very different from the one in Eastern Europe. The same regional fractioning would happen everywhere in the world.

The final world race will depend of number of members of today's races coming to the mix. US is a good example how it might go. African American impact on genetic pool of white Americans was very minimal, due to much smaller numbers of Blacks. In the other direction situation is way different. It is hard to find a black person of African in America descent (except new arrivals) without substantial European admixture. This is after 200 years of strict racial segregation, mostly out of wedlock by white masters.

Final proportions might be like this:
At around 2050 the population of the world should stabilize at around 10 billion. Roughly, 3 in 10 people will be East Asians, 2 in 10 South Asians, 1 in 10 European, 1 in 10 Amerindian/South American (whatever it is there), 3 of 10 African (2 for Sub Saharan). Even more roughly, the final world citizen should be 1/3 East Asian looking, 1/3 Black African looking, and 1/3 Caucasian (European/Middle Eastern )+ Amerindian

[LeBrok]

Under 'agenda' I meant more Lebrok's kind of position not you.
I don't want everybody to be part of some amorphic grey mass.

You don't want this to happen, but I have an agenda? I'm already feeling at ease with all the races and most cultures on this planet. Why would I want all to be of one race then? I never said this is my goal, and that I want this to happen, did I? Perhaps you want to prove me wrong and cite me?
All I did is to point to existing trends in multicultural societies and extrapolate these trends to the future. These trends has been supported statistically for many years. On other hand your argument consists only of your opinion and intolerant sub-tone.
But hey, if you don't want them to mix, perhaps you should tell them. It should stop the process.

amorphic grey mass.

It happens that these "amorphic grey mass" people already exist in many multicultural countries. How do you think they feel, when educated and tolerant person like yourself tells them the truth? Obviously, they would love to feel as superior (colorful mass) person like yourself, but obviously they can't. They are just amorphic grey mass.

And again ancient mixing was due to conquest and rape.

This is only a half truth. I'm sure you agree with the other omitted truths(agenda), that there are also mixing due to migrations, resettlement, love, infidelity, arranged marriages, trade of slaves, bride exchange, etc.

Today's mixing in cosmopolitan areas will never happen on large scale.

Run small 8% intermarriage per generation in Vancouver (cosmopolitan city) through a formula and tell us how many years passes till 90% saturation. Perhaps then it will help you to imagine how it works. Your constant, unsubstantiated by any numbers or a research, mantra starts sounding like a broken record.

What education has to do with it? Unless you mean some liberal agenda education :)
The most racist persons in history were very educated folks.

Nope, you only hear about these educated racists, because they were in position of power, well known, and therefore made in infamous by massmedia. You wouldn't have a chance to hear about uneducated racist from small English village, Louisiana plantation, who tortured his slaves to death. No news about him in newspaper.

I don't really believe those 'facts' which mostly stem from biased sources.

You don't even have one statistic or a research, out of hundreds done on the subject, to support your position. Are you sure that you are right against so many smart educated scientists who researched this?

Preaching 'tolerance' usually is a subversive way to undermine targeted group's identity and security.

Tolerance can't be extended to intolerant and racist groups, who stand against tolerance. Do you have a problem with it?

[Kardu]

LeBrok, you consider yourself a 'Citizen of the world', which is a motto of cultural marxists, liberals and leftists of various stripes who do have an agenda (not taking in account your other ideas in similar venue on this forum). So I haven't discovered America here.
If this mixing was such a natural occurrence why the need to spend billions on propaganda, censorship, directed campaigns etc. etc.
I am confident that no utopian craze will manage to alter natural law.
And out of curiosity, how do you plan to racially mix such "intolerant" societies as Japan or South Korea?

[LeBrok]

LeBrok, you consider yourself a 'Citizen of the world', which is a motto of cultural marxists, liberals and leftists of various stripes who do have an agenda (not taking in account your other ideas in similar venue on this forum). So I haven't discovered America here.

Perhaps you should take off your black and white glasses, because you mislabel people and put agenda in their thoughts.

If this mixing was such a natural occurrence why the need to spend billions on propaganda, censorship, directed campaigns etc. etc.

What?! Who spends money encouraging mixing? When you have free, tolerant and inclusive societies people do whatever they want, and this includes marring whoever one wants, including race and gender.

I am confident that no utopian craze will manage to alter natural law.

The "natural law" arraigned marriages from Georgian village? I'm sure wife beating was included in "natural law" there. Good all times, before cultural Marxism destroyed it.

And out of curiosity, how do you plan to racially mix such "intolerant" societies as Japan or South Korea?

Nobody is going to force them to do anything, nor force them not to do. I'm just spotting a trend in today's world and not setting social engineering program. Do you get it? It is just a social trend, which exists, and documented countless times in statistics. Except you nobody denies it. Please, give us the one statistic, to support your opinion.
Japanese living in Canada intermarry in almost 50% of cases. And for your information, nobody is forcing them.

[Kardu]

The "natural law" arraigned marriages from Georgian village? I'm sure wife beating was included in "natural law" there. Good all times, before cultural Marxism destroyed it.

LOL yet another example of how bigoted so called 'progressives' in reality are.

Behind any trend there is an individual or a group who desired it and made it happen. Trends do not appear magically out of thin air.

[LeBrok]

LOL yet another example of how bigoted so called 'progressives' in reality are.

I am a bigot, because I'm against arranged marriages and domestic violence?

Perhaps you think I'm against Georgians, because of this statement:

The "natural law" arraigned marriages from Georgian village? I'm sure wife beating was included in "natural law" there. Good all times, before cultural Marxism destroyed it.

Maybe you haven't been to Georgia for a long time and forgot the arrange marriages still exist, not mentioning bride kidnappings?
Oh look, we found out another way for people to mix thanks to your conservative old fashion values, Bride Kidnapping.

Behind any trend there is an individual or a group who desired it and made it happen.

Yes, women desired equal rights, slaves desired freedom, young people desired to go with love and chose their spouses no mater what colour. How hard is to understand these simple human desires of freedom, equality and inclusiveness. Don't you feel it? Do you need to be taught this?

[Kardu]

I am not a conservative :)

If so called equality and inclusiveness were natural traits, human history would not be determined by dominance and exclusiveness from times immemorial, and today's leftists of all stripes wouldn't need billions for brainwashing.

Main culprit is Gramsci :) not that heartbreaking story of love and freedom you tell

[Angela]

I am not a conservative :)

If so called equality and inclusiveness were natural traits, human history would not be determined by dominance and exclusiveness from times immemorial, and today's leftists of all stripes wouldn't need billions for brainwashing.

Main culprit is Gramsci :) not that heartbreaking story of love and freedom you tell

Gramsci is the culprit or Gramsci described the phenomenon? You are talking about cultural hegemony I take it? You're not going to turn out to be one of those conspiracy...uh...folks are you? You do know that conspiracy theories are the last refuge of those who can't compete, or those who feel powerless, don't you?

Did "Cultural Marxists"and/or Hollywood elites have time machines? Are they responsible for the revolt of the women described in the Lysistrata?

"“What matters that I was born a woman, if I can cure your misfortunes? I pay my share of tolls and taxes, by giving men to the State. But you, you miserable greybeards, you contribute nothing to the public charges; on the contrary, you have wasted the treasure of our forefathers, as it was called, the treasure amassed in the days of the Persian Wars. You pay nothing at all in return; and into the bargain you endanger our lives and liberties by your mistakes. Have you one word to say for yourselves?... Ah! don't irritate me, you there, or I'll lay my slipper across your jaws; and it's pretty heavy.”
― Aristophanes, Lysistrata

“Magistrate: May I die a thousand deaths ere I obey one who wears a veil!

Lysistrata: If that's all that troubles you, here take my veil, wrap it round your head, and hold your tounge. Then take this basket; put on a girdle, card wool, munch beans. The War shall be women's business.”
― Aristophanes, Lysistrata

Perhaps they were behind the Wat Tyler rebellion in England in the 1300's?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasants%27_Revolt

Were they whispering in the ear of the founders of the American Revolution when they wrote this?

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

Or what about this, from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address?

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."


A marvel of brevity, conciseness, allegory and soaring imagery, an entire book has been written deconstructing it: Gary Wills' http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=JyAOOJJFxfQC

Or this:
"That is the real issue. That is the issue that will continue in this country when these poor tongues of Judge Douglas and myself shall be silent. It is the eternal struggle between these two principles -- right and wrong -- throughout the world. They are the two principles that have stood face to face from the beginning of time, and will ever continue to struggle. The one is the common right of humanity and the other the divine right of kings. It is the same principle in whatever shape it develops itself. It is the same spirit that says, "You work and toil and earn bread, and I'll eat it." No matter in what shape it comes, whether from the mouth of a king who seeks to bestride the people of his own nation and live by the fruit of their labor, or from one race of men as an apology for enslaving another race, it is the same tyrannical principle."

Or perhaps these cultural Marxists went back further and got to John Locke and the French Philosophes of the French Enlightenment?

[giuseppe rossi]

Uber Racist Japanese, Koreans and Chinese need to import tens of milions of Negroes, South Asians, Hispanics and Arabs to become a vibrant and colorful society.

If they don't do it, America should bomb them to stone age for not enjoying the beauty of the Multi Racial society.

[Angela]

Uber Racist Japanese, Koreans and Chinese need to import tens of milions of Negroes, South Asians, Hispanics and Arabs to become a vibrant and colorful society.

If they don't do it, America should bomb them to stone age for not enjoying the beauty of the Multi Racial society.

I've been all over the world, both for pleasure and business, and there is no place...none...with more legal equality, personal autonomy, economic opportunity, social mobility, or creativity than this one. Is it perfect? No, it isn't, but there is no comparison with the countries you mentioned. In terms of their economies and intellectual achievements alone, they are pretty good at copying the ideas generated here, but that's about the extent of it.

[Kardu]

Angela, I don;t need conspiracy theories to see what's going on. You waste that cheap leftist trick to silence an opponent with me.

Like our friend LeBrok, I also observe trends and this one is strikingly reminiscent of USSR internal policy ('beauty' of which I personally experienced) i.e. destroying national identities, prohibiting education in other languages than Russian, rewriting history, constant communist brainwashing starting at age of 3, relocating populations to cut roots with their homelands. Ultimate goal was to forge a single new entity: Soviet People, zombified flock of sheep readily obeying their Party masters.

What you propose is just the same, albeit seemingly softer, totalitarian nevertheless.

[giuseppe rossi]

I've been all over the world, both for pleasure and business, and there is no place...none...with more legal equality, personal autonomy, economic opportunity, social mobility, or creativity than this one. Is it perfect? No, it isn't, but there is no comparison with the countries you mentioned. In terms of their economies and intellectual achievements alone, theoy are pretty good at copying the ideas generated here, but that's about the extent of it.

Japanese and Koreans have been the most creative people around since the '80s.

Growing up without their technology, animes and mangas, would have been a nightmare for me.

[LeBrok]

Angela, I don;t need conspiracy theories to see what's going on. You waste that cheap leftist trick to silence an opponent with me.

Like our friend LeBrok, I also observe trends and this one is strikingly reminiscent of USSR internal policy ('beauty' of which I personally experienced) i.e. destroying national identities, prohibiting education in other languages than Russian, rewriting history, constant communist brainwashing starting at age of 3, relocating populations to cut roots with their homelands. Ultimate goal was to forge a single new entity: Soviet People, zombified flock of sheep readily obeying their Party masters.

What you propose is just the same, albeit seemingly softer, totalitarian nevertheless.

In this case I have no idea how could you connect all the totalitarian enslavement of USSR, you mentioned above, with mine libertarian inclinations of freedom of personal choices, which includes marring whoever you want.

One the record, admit that you are against freedom to marry a partner of your choice!

[Kardu]

In this case I have no idea how could you connect all the totalitarian enslavement of USSR, you mentioned above, with mine libertarian inclinations of freedom of personal choices, which includes marring whoever you want.

One the record, admit that you are against freedom to marry a partner of your choice!

Because what you propose is to do the same but in a sneaky, subversive way.

I am for liberty but also for responsibility and loyalty to one's own group and its interests. But I dont expect someone without roots to understand my point.

[Angela]

Japanese and Koreans have been the most creative people around since the '80s.

Growing up without their technology, animes and mangas, would have been a nightmare for me.

You are sadly misinformed. All of that technology was developed from ideas created in the West. It's the difference between being a mathematician and being a line engineer. Did you ever hear of Alan Turing? He was a homosexual, by the way. How many Nobel prizes in the pure sciences or mathematics have been won by the Chinese and Koreans? Don't bother looking it up...zero. The Japanese have some, but they're still mostly from derivative endeavors from what my brother tells me. They're not innovators...whether it's genetics or their culture, I don't know, but it's a fact.

Ed. Honestly, anime and ganga...that's your definition of a major creative contribution to world culture?

How old are you guys, anyway? Things are finally starting to come into focus.

[LeBrok]

Because what you propose is to do the same but in a sneaky, subversive way.

To make it clear. Are you against arranged marriages, and for freedom to chose your own spouse?
Be clear.

I am for liberty but also for responsibility and loyalty to one's own group and its interests. But I dont expect someone without roots to understand my point.

Good, you are free to make this choice. Just remember, you should also respect and let others to make their own. That's all it is, freedom, equality and inclusiveness. No agenda, no forcing, no mind control.

[Angela]

Angela, I don;t need conspiracy theories to see what's going on. You waste that cheap leftist trick to silence an opponent with me.

Like our friend LeBrok, I also observe trends and this one is strikingly reminiscent of USSR internal policy ('beauty' of which I personally experienced) i.e. destroying national identities, prohibiting education in other languages than Russian, rewriting history, constant communist brainwashing starting at age of 3, relocating populations to cut roots with their homelands. Ultimate goal was to forge a single new entity: Soviet People, zombified flock of sheep readily obeying their Party masters.

What you propose is just the same, albeit seemingly softer, totalitarian nevertheless.

I'm far from being a leftist. Indeed, those of my ancestors who were anarchists and Communists would no doubt disown me if they could. (The living ones just yell at me. ) No one is attempting to silence you. We're attempting to get a reasoned, logical argument out of you.

As per one of your responses to LeBrok, there is no totalitarian control in the U.S. about these matters. There is freedom for everybody to express themselves, even idiots.

I will repeat, were the women of ancient Greece, the Gracchi, the rebels in medieval England, and the philosophers of the Enlightenment also brainwashed by this vast, leftist conspiracy? How? Were Communists transported back in time to sow their dastardly ideas?

Look, I get it that the Soviet Union treated its ethnic minorities terribly and that this influences how people from that background view the world. However, that has nothing to do with the humane and "liberal", in the classical 18th century sense, philosophy and world view that developed in the west. I'm a first generation "American", born in Italy. I vote in U.S. elections, and actively participate in American culture. In my dealings with "Americans" and American culture, I use English. At the same time, I watch Italian television, and read Italian journals and books, and occasionally, if I can find someone who speaks Italian, I speak Italian with them. I'm perfectly free to practice Roman Catholicism, just as my Baptist neighbors or Jewish neighbors or Buddhist neighbors or Hindu or Muslim neighbors are free to practice their religions. Nobody cares as long as you don't bother anyone else or try to impose your views on anyone else or pose a security or health risk. If I choose to "inmarry", as I did, that's fine. If my children choose not to, as is probably likely, that is also fine. There is no compulsion. Most people love it that there are different cultures represented here. They happily go to Cinco de Mayo celebrations even if they're not Mexican, to San Gennaro and similar Italian festivals even if they're not Italian, and I assure you that all those people celebrating St. Patrick's Day in New York on March 17th were not Irish.

Really, it's all good.

Ed.It's true, of course, that the situation involving African Americans needs to be improved, but with improved education and good will on all sides, I am cautiously optimistic about the future.

[epoch]

I will repeat, were the women of ancient Greece, the Gracchi, the rebels in medieval England, and the philosophers of the Enlightenment also brainwashed by this vast, leftist conspiracy? How? Were Communists transported back in time to sow their dastardly ideas?

Two things. Firstly, a lot of these ideas, especially Enlightenment ideas, stem from a heretical branch of Christianity, that tried to bring about the Kingdom of God and salvation of mankind in this world and age. British filosopher John Gray wrote an excellent book about that relationship called Black Mass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_M...eath_of_Utopia

Marxism itself is deeply rooted in the Enlightenment. So the fact that you found parallels in history doesn't disprove anything.

Secondly there absolutely is a thing called Cultural Marxism, which has its deep roots in the sixties. The university leftists of the sixties were quite fond of people like Herbert Marcuse. Now he thought the working class sold out and focused on "non-integrated forces of minorities, outsiders, and radical intelligentsia attempting to nourish oppositional thought and behavior through promoting radical thinking and opposition", as wikepedia states it. Since large parts the culture of the sixties are basically becoming mainstream culture nowadays you have your chain of heritage connected to cultural marxists.

Thirdly, these new cultural taboos are not enforced by propaganda or anything, but by shaming the persons that don't abide to it. Take a certain Rosetta scientists shirt as a perfect example of how it works.

[Kardu]

Angela, please, don't hand me over that propaganda pamphlet :) I've been in the States, I follow American news from left and right and have a pretty good picture of what is going on there.
That progressive narrative just makes me lough.
Non me ne frego, the Nature will reverse the tide when the time comes. ;) Ho finito qui.