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Thread: Prehistoric Danes to be genetically mapped

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    Prehistoric Danes to be genetically mapped

    http://cphpost.dk/news/national/preh...tically-mapped



    The history of prehistoric residents of Denmark will soon be genetically mapped using the skeletons of people who lived as far back as 7,000 years ago.
    Genetic researchers from the Centre for GeoGenetics at the University of Copenhagen's Natural History Museum say the project, named 'The Genomic History of Denmark', will make Denmark the first country to catalogue genetic profiles of its residents from its earliest inhabitants up to today.
    The scientists hope the study will help identify early Danes' genetic profile, where they came from and which diseases they suffered from.
    The team of geneticists who will take part in the five-year project specialises in extracting and analysing DNA from ancient material, and some of the materials they are looking at in this project stem from the bones of hunter-gatherers who lived in present-day Denmark over 7,000 years ago.
    “When we have analysed all the material, new and old, we will, among other things, be able to pinpoint when various diseases arrived in Denmark,” Eske Willerslev, of the Centre for GeoGenetics, told Politiken newspaper. “And we can see if large epidemics, like the plague, helped catalyse a unique and genetically orientated ‘extra resistance’ against, for example, the HIV virus, that we see today in many northern Europeans.”
    The researchers are negotiating with the National Museum to be able to use the remains. The project has received a 36 million kroner grant from the University of Copenhagen, but Willerslev expected the total cost of the project to exceed 80 million kroner.
    When completed, the project will have mapped the genomes of 100 Danes, from the hunter-gatherer period, through the Bronze Age, Iron Age, the Viking Era and the early Industrial Age.
    It is expected that the DNA in the oldest remains will be heavily decomposed, but the team was confident that it would be possible to map the genome. In 2010, Willerslev led a team that reconstructed the complete genetic blueprint of a 4,000 year-old Greenlander based on DNA samples from single tuft of hair.





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    That is great news!

    This will give so much information!
    I also wonder if they are able to subtract Y-dna, what it will turn out to be, if possible to say.
    I wish them good luck with the project!

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    Yeh, great news, and I really hope more countries will follow soon.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    7000 YBP is pre-farming in Denmark. We're talking Ertebølle culture. Mesolithic YDNA? Should be interesting...

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    I think we should post our best guesses... What should the prize be for the most accurate theory?

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    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
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    OK here it goes:
    5,000 B.C. until 1,500 B.C.-- almost complete I2 with maybe a small sliver of G
    1,500 B.C. until 200 A.D./400 A.D.-- strong introduction of R1b lines at the expense of I2, by 200 A.D. almost complete R1b throughout Jutland. (ie. Cimbri, Teutons)
    200 A.D./400 A.D. until present-- influx of I1 at the expense of R1b. Heavily R1b Angles flow to England. Much later we see the introduction of J1 and J2. Daughtering out brings I1 from peak of 70% of male population in 700 A.D.-800 A.D. to levels we see today.
    You can't make fun of my theory unless you post your own!

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    For-fun, not-too-serious guesses:

    5000BCE-4000BCE
    (Mesolithic, Ertebølle): I2-M223 majority, plus I1, and a surprise or two like E1b, F, or an I* branch that links way down the I1 line
    4000BCE-2900BCE (Neolithic, Funnelbeaker): Similar but with a little more G2a and J2a and fewer surprises
    2900BCE-2400BCE (Chalcolithic, Corded Ware): Rapid R1a growth, diminishing of most old ones except an important I1 minority, whose founder effect will begin shortly
    2400BCE-1700BCE (late Chalcolithic, quasi-Beaker... what do you call this period in Denmark?): R1a still a majority at the beginning but with I1 growth that makes it also very important, initial important R1b growth too
    1700BCE-500BCE (Nordic Bronze Age): R1b, especially U106+, and I1 grow so that R1b, R1a, and I1 are roughly equal, probably R1b > I1 > R1a by the end of the period
    500BCE onward: Not much but drift to make it more solidly R1b > I1 > R1a

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    My Swedish friend gave me a little history of the Vikings. He said the raids into Frankish territory encouraged the Franks to give all those lands boarding Viking lands especially with rivers so Netherlands, Normandy were taken over by the raiders to prevent Vikings from Norway. The Franks were most cooperative with Romans and were given lands by the Romans what is now Belgium. The French language developed with their version of Latin. They were not German speaking with the collapse of the Roman Empire. In fact hey may have precipitated the collapse when they were denied by the Romans as Provincial governors. The Franks also attacked the Danes to expand their own Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    My Swedish friend gave me a little history of the Vikings. He said the raids into Frankish territory encouraged the Franks to give all those lands boarding Viking lands especially with rivers so Netherlands, Normandy were taken over by the raiders to prevent Vikings from Norway.
    Oriental, I wasn't able to grasp the idea behind this quote. Would it be possible for you to rephrase it? Who did the Franks give the land to? And why did the raiders in Normandy prevent Vikings from attacking Norway?

    And Sparkey, I like your idea of a surprise haplogroup like E or F... that would be awesome. I'm hoping for I1 to be in Jutland early and often, but am skepital they didn't arrive until much later.

    *Edit* I think I figured out your idea Oriental... Are you saying the Franks gave their neighboring shore lands to Danish Vikings in order to prevent future attacks from the Vikings of Norway? I can see that happening.
    Last edited by nordicwarrior; 31-01-13 at 03:54. Reason: added paragraph

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    No risk, no fun!
    For the Mesolithic period I bet there could be a few HG Q as surprises in addition to the already favoured various HG I.

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    I'm always afraid that ancient dna samples are skewed big time. Let's say we have 2 distinct population (just an example) J2 farmers, who live by rivers in big populations, and G herders who prefer higher grounds and smaller groups. By nature of things, the J2 settlements were washed away by floods and gone forever, but many burials in caves and mountains of Gs would survive. After analyzing ancient available DNA we would get only Gs at the beginning, and still mostly Gs after many samples tested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm always afraid that ancient dna samples are skewed big time. Let's say we have 2 distinct population (just an example) J2 farmers, who live by rivers in big populations, and G herders who prefer higher grounds and smaller groups. By nature of things, the J2 settlements were washed away by floods and gone forever, but many burials in caves and mountains of Gs would survive. After analyzing ancient available DNA we would get only Gs at the beginning, and still mostly Gs after many samples tested.
    Good point. The good news is that Denmark has no rivers, valleys and hills. Bad news is that the sea probably already flooded many important coastal settlements from coastal peoples like seafarers and fishers. Even today the sandy north-sea coasts are still changing extremely quickly. For instance the island Sylt has been predicted to disappear in a few hundred years.

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    <=Clapping for Lebrok's statement. The elephant in the room regarding accurate y-DNA sample collection (especially in Jutland) is sea-level change. A 300 ft. increase in ocean water will effectively eliminate a huge chunk of population--the coastal peoples won't be accounted for and therefore the results will be biased. And 300 ft. is what we are talking about with the melting of the Ice Age sheets. But, that being said, I'm still very much looking forward to these findings.

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    Oops, sorry I stepped on your comment ElHorsto. I must have typed mine while yours was posting.

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    Who did the Franks give the land to? And why did the raiders in Normandy prevent Vikings from attacking Norway?
    Sorry if my wording isn't clear. The raiders were the raiding Vikings. The Franks probably too occupied with other enemies while the Vikings were quick and often disappeared before an army could be organized, decided to give the lands bordering Scandinavia and Normandy to the Viking raiders. The Normans are the descendants of these Vikings. The reasoning was that similar to that in which "to catch a thief would best be helped by employing a thief." Did you see the movie "To catch a thief" starring Cary Grant and Grace Kelly? The Vikings who were given lands would know all the tricks of the other raiding Vikings would know how to stop them. After this there were fewer raids.

    My landlady who was Finnish said that Scandinavia at that time was warmer and so there was a population boom. With the excess population and little job prospects they went raiding.

    The same thing happened with the Crusades. The feudal lords probably were practicing polygamy and had way too many children so the excess sons who became knights became "ronin" or freelance knights and engaged in extortion and other nefarious activities. Probably many were illegitimate so the term "bastards" may have got the negative connotations from this period. It so happened that the Byzantium Emperor also asked for help from the Pope as the Muslims were bordering the Byzantium Empire and threatening their existence. Well what better way to rid the problem of excess knights with a crusade to save Christianity? So the Crusade got started.

    Hmm. I am curious. Are you also NordicWarrior. NordicWarrior, Boss and you use the same avator. Sometime I see only the avator and think it is the same person.

    I also found Per is also a Scandinavian name and Person is the son of Per. I wonder how person became an anonymous pronoun.

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    Thanks for the explanation Oriental. Yes, I am nordicwarrior and nordicfoyer, but I'm not Boss. I'll send you a P.M. to explain further. The two accounts will soon merge or one will be dropped. Sorry for the confusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    For-fun, not-too-serious guesses:

    5000BCE-4000BCE
    (Mesolithic, Ertebølle): I2-M223 majority, plus I1, and a surprise or two like E1b, F, or an I* branch that links way down the I1 line
    4000BCE-2900BCE (Neolithic, Funnelbeaker): Similar but with a little more G2a and J2a and fewer surprises
    2900BCE-2400BCE (Chalcolithic, Corded Ware): Rapid R1a growth, diminishing of most old ones except an important I1 minority, whose founder effect will begin shortly
    2400BCE-1700BCE (late Chalcolithic, quasi-Beaker... what do you call this period in Denmark?): R1a still a majority at the beginning but with I1 growth that makes it also very important, initial important R1b growth too
    1700BCE-500BCE (Nordic Bronze Age): R1b, especially U106+, and I1 grow so that R1b, R1a, and I1 are roughly equal, probably R1b > I1 > R1a by the end of the period
    500BCE onward: Not much but drift to make it more solidly R1b > I1 > R1a
    Interesting.

    Can't wait for the results of this to come through.
    'Wise men speak only of what they know' - J.R.R. Tolkien

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    I suppose Y-E1b V13 or of same stock of V13 accompanied Y-G2 neolithical people in central danubian cultures (+ some rare Y-J2) and could have been present a low level about 4000 BC in Denmark coming from South - at the same time or almost, by sea arrived cousins of 'long barrows' people that, I think, played a big role among Funnelbeaker culture, before the Corded & BB times - this maritime megalithic culture had surely enough introduced Y-J2 (not the same as the ones that was with 'danubian' culture) + some J1 and maybe already (not so sure) a zest of Y-R1b-L21 and upstreams of these - concerning Y-I, I think Y-I1 or ancestors were yet South and North Denmark and but I am no sure about Y-I72a2 (ex I1c ex I2b) - but I am not a wizard - as a lot here I see Y-R1a coming wis Corded Ware culture -

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    wow! I discover a new HG! Y-I72a2 ??? well well... I2a1b !

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Agriculture in Denmark and Southern Sweden began during the transition from Ertebølle to Funnelbeaker.
    http://www.uni-kiel.de/landscapes/allgemein/download/calendar/2012_Soerensen_Karg_2012_JAS_Meso-NeoTrans-SouthernScand.pdf


    And Jutland was a case apart from the rest, they began with agriculture as well before.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Balder View Post
    Agriculture in Denmark and Southern Sweden began during the transition from Ertebølle to Funnelbeaker.
    http://www.uni-kiel.de/landscapes/allgemein/download/calendar/2012_Soerensen_Karg_2012_JAS_Meso-NeoTrans-SouthernScand.pdf


    And Jutland was a case apart from the rest, they began with agriculture as well before.
    Thanks for the link, Balder
    I have not had time to read completely the survey - I shall read it soon -
    If I understand well, agriculture began earlier in Jutland? I think it could be the result of megalithers (close to the famous Long Barrows people of Britain) who seem having had an influence upon the Funnelbeaker Culture supposed (this last one) being of early I-E colonization? What is striking is the coastal enough distribution of first 'neolithical' settlements in Denmark - a subsequant colonization (of more continental origin) take foot in Scandinvavia later?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    MOESAN.

    In fact the ‘neolithisation’ in Jutland come from the East. From the coastal regions of the peninsula, notably in Wangels and Rosenhof to 4700BC.


    http://www.hgo.se/arkeologi/digital_...r_Feasting.pdf
    http://what-when-how.com/ancient-eur...-70004000-b-c/



    Mesolithic and Neolithic Subsistence in Denmark: New Stable Isotope Data
    http://dro.dur.ac.uk/3768/1/3768.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balder View Post
    MOESAN.

    In fact the ‘neolithisation’ in Jutland come from the East. From the coastal regions of the peninsula, notably in Wangels and Rosenhof to 4700BC.


    http://www.hgo.se/arkeologi/digital_...r_Feasting.pdf
    http://what-when-how.com/ancient-eur...-70004000-b-c/



    Mesolithic and Neolithic Subsistence in Denmark: New Stable Isotope Data
    http://dro.dur.ac.uk/3768/1/3768.pdf
    Great info Balder, so much to read into. Very interesting time in Western European history, and the articles youve provided have a wealth of information on this amazing transitional period, greatly appreciated.

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    at MOESAN

    are you confusing Funnel Beaker with Bell Beaker?
    Bell Beaker was a NON-Indo-European west to east [Chalcolithic] culture.

    1. Ertebolle and 2. Funnel Beaker are Pre-Indo-European [Neolithic/Chalcolithic] cultures
    they were not influenced by the long barrow of Britain (poss. the other way around) but by the Neolithic and Chalcolithic cultures of the Danube and Carpathians.
    Funnel Beaker was succeeded by the first/earliest Indo-European wave (Corded Ware Culture)
    http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.long

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