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Thread: Solutrean hypothesis: Native American Clovis Culture & NW Europe: (ydna Q, mtdna X2)

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    I think we can expect that the results for people who are participating in a DNA study because they know they're a mixture of Amerindian and European ancestry could be different from random sampling of Native Americans living on reserves. When I was talking about data not being available, I was talking about studies such as Tarazona-Santos and Santos, 2002; Zegura et al., 2004; Balnick et al, 2006, etc. In other words, the studies that indicated high levels of R1 among specific Native American groups. I'd just like to know how detailed their information is and what it says. Anyway, I was mainly trying to suggest that there could be an alternative to the Solutrean hypothesis to explain how mtDNA X2 got to North America. I suppose another possibility could be that a lot of Finnish women emigrated to North America and married Native Americans, if it weren't for the fact that the Native American version of X2 either has been shown to be or is assumed to be different from the European X2 - I haven't seen the data on that one either, although I haven't actually tried to find it.

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    The way I understand Native American hg. X2 is that it's been here (U.S. and Canada) for at least 10,000 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    The way I understand Native American hg. X2 is that it's been here (U.S. and Canada) for at least 10,000 years.
    I won't quarrel with that. R1/X2 could have come at a later date than Q-L55/C1 though. My prediction is that Q-L55/C1 came over with the Solutreans and R1/X2 came over with either the Solutreans or some of their descendants before 10,000 years ago. Motala6 (Sweden, 8,000 ybp) tested L55+. And downstream of Q-L55 (Q1a2a) are the Native American Q-M3 and Q-Z780. And the unique mtdna C1e and C1f have been found in Scandinavia. But if I'm wrong I'll have to eat my words.

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    I was just looking at Family Tree DNA's mtdna Haplogroup C Project webpage where it shows the map of the locations of their most distant ancestors. Of the 39 locations of the most distant known ancestors for people confirmed there as belonging to mtdna C1, 37 of the locations show the Americas, and the other 2 show Spain. And the locations are País Vasco, Spain (for an individual with Confirmed Haplogroup: C1b) and Cantabria, Spain (for an individual with Confirmed Haplogroup: C1c1b). And those locations are right next to each other in the centre of the north coast of Spain, right where the Solutreans allegedly made their journey to America from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    I was just looking at Family Tree DNA's mtdna Haplogroup C Project webpage where it shows the map of the locations of their most distant ancestors. Of the 39 locations of the most distant known ancestors for people confirmed there as belonging to mtdna C1, 37 of the locations show the Americas, and the other 2 show Spain. And the locations are País Vasco, Spain (for an individual with Confirmed Haplogroup: C1b) and Cantabria, Spain (for an individual with Confirmed Haplogroup: C1c1b). And those locations are right next to each other in the centre of the north coast of Spain, right where the Solutreans allegedly made their journey to America from.
    Interesting results. However, depending on how far back their records go, I think it's possible that the most distant known maternal ancestors of these people could be Native American women who married Spanish men who then returned to Spain with their Native American wives.

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    Yes, that’s got to be considered. On the corresponding haplogroup assignment results page there, they list a C1c1b as “Ungrouped” right at the bottom, but I don’t know if it’s the Spanish C1c1b in question. And I can’t tell if there’s a C1b on the list that’s that much different from the others.


    There’s a similar situation with Q-M3 on the ydna Haplogroup Q project webpage. Out of about 50 individuals’ locations on their map, all but one of them are in the Americas, and the one that isn’t is in Gibraltar (which borders Spain and where there are Solutrean sites).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    Yes, that’s got to be considered. On the corresponding haplogroup assignment results page there, they list a C1c1b as “Ungrouped” right at the bottom, but I don’t know if it’s the Spanish C1c1b in question. And I can’t tell if there’s a C1b on the list that’s that much different from the others.


    There’s a similar situation with Q-M3 on the ydna Haplogroup Q project webpage. Out of about 50 individuals’ locations on their map, all but one of them are in the Americas, and the one that isn’t is in Gibraltar (which borders Spain and where there are Solutrean sites).
    That's definitely an interesting result, given that Y-DNA was probably much less likely to migrate to Europe from the Americas during the colonial period, although that could have happened, I suppose. And if the one example of Q was in Gibralter, the person's ancestors are quite likely to have been British. But then we have to explain the presence of Q-M3 in Britain.

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    I agree. What also intrigues me is the position of Q1a2a1a2 (L804) on the phylogenetic tree. Here is the current sub-structure of the Q1a2a1 (L54) branch:

    · Q1a2a1a (CTS11969)

    • Q1a2a1a1 (M3): the main subclade of Native Americans
    • Q1a2a1a2 (L804): found in Germany, Scandinavia and Britain (possibly Hunnic)
      • Q1a2a1a2a (L807): observed in Britain


    · Q1a2a1b (Z780): found among Native Americans, notably in Mexico

    · Q1a2a1c (L330): the main subclade of the Mongols, also found among the Kazakhs and Uzbeks, as well as in Ukraine, Turkey and Greece (probably Mongolian and Turkic)


    On the ydna Haplogroup Q project webpage where they list the locations for the L804+ people of their most distant known ancestor on their direct male line, the breakdown comes out as follows:

    England 8
    Scotland 2
    Ireland 2 (one unique surname)
    Sweden 1
    Germany 1
    Norway 1
    United Kingdom 1
    Unknown Origin 2
    I don’t think all of these were due to Native Americans migrating to Northern Europe, especially since none of them list the Americas, and there is only 1 out of 50 Q-M3’s that don’t list the Americas for their most distant known ancestor. What it looks like to me is that these L804’s were probably integrated into Germanic tribes thousands of years ago – and were probably mixed in with R1b-U106-Z8’s like me.

    It also seems to me that Q1a2a1 (L54) likely originated somewhere around Siberia / Central Asia, since it’s the main subclade among the Mongols, and some branches then migrated over to France and Spain. In Stanford and Bradley’s book they mention the Streletskayan archaeological culture (located southeast of Moscow) as their perhaps prime candidate for “a Solutrean progenitor”, although they mention a couple others as well. (Bradley talks about this on a webpage of his as well) But that’s still a ways from Siberia, though.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting. Although the migration of Q from Siberia to Iberia seems like a bit of a stretch, I think it makes more sense than Solutrean migration across the Atlantic. And perhaps the differences between Solutrean and Clovis can be explained by the fact that they're both descended from a common source, rather than one being derived from the other.

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    The Solutreans were noted for being very advanced technologically. My understanding is that they probably had the best stone tool technology in the world at the time, as well as with other survival technologies for cold climates. For instance, in “Across Atlantic Ice” they say: “The earliest small, sharply pointed, eyed needles made of bone have been found in Solutrean deposits.” And as earlier cultures evidently made and used boats for long journeys (e.g. the first Australians) the Solutreans were probably quite capable of doing so too, the argument goes.

    There are many videos and documentaries on youtube describing how the Solutreans might have made the journey across the edge of the ice sheets of the North Atlantic at the time.

    They also say in “Across Atlantic Ice” that most of the earliest evidence of people in North America comes from eastern North America, especially along the east coast, and that the stone tool technology there is very close to that of the Solutreans, and looks as if it was derived from them. That’s their argument anyway.

    Also, haplogroup Q in Eurasia seems to peak in Western Siberia, north of India. And they seem to be a very mobile haplogroup judged by their distribution across the continents, as is also the case with haplogroup R.

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    I’m a bit surprised that there isn’t more activity on this thread. I suspect a lot of people are afraid of supporting the Solutrean Hypothesis for fear of being called racist. I think that’s ironic though, since I think it’s quite possible that the Solutreans were the first settlers of NorthWestern Europe after the ice sheets there from the Last Glacial Maximum melted. Just look at the distribution of haplogroup Q in Europe, for instance. Something like 40 percent of the average genetic makeup of Native Americans may be attributable to the Solutreans, whereas the component might make up just a few percent of the genomes of NorthWest Europeans. Maybe it could be argued that the Cherokees, Ojibwes and Micmacs are the Native NorthWest Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    ...Maybe they looked similar to Patrick Stewart with somewhat darker skin...
    Wouldn't we then see a much more pronounced rate of sagittal keel in the Americas?

    Kidding... I love Picard. Best Star Trek Captain. Ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    I’m a bit surprised that there isn’t more activity on this thread. I suspect a lot of people are afraid of supporting the Solutrean Hypothesis for fear of being called racist. I think that’s ironic though, since I think it’s quite possible that the Solutreans were the first settlers of NorthWestern Europe after the ice sheets there from the Last Glacial Maximum melted. Just look at the distribution of haplogroup Q in Europe, for instance. Something like 40 percent of the average genetic makeup of Native Americans may be attributable to the Solutreans, whereas the component might make up just a few percent of the genomes of NorthWest Europeans. Maybe it could be argued that the Cherokees, Ojibwes and Micmacs are the Native NorthWest Europeans.
    I imagine most people take the view that Q entered the Americas from Siberia, and that any Q currently in Europe is either descended from a Q hunter-gatherer who strayed west from Asia a long time ago or is the result of more recent population movements across northern Eurasia (depending on which subclade is involved). Most people view the Solutreans and Clovis as separate but similar developments. You may not agree but I doubt you'll convince many people unless you can get a Solutrean to come back from the dead and give a talk on 'How We Emigrated to the Americas".

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post

    Kidding... I love Picard. Best Star Trek Captain. Ever.
    Indeed we have something in common!
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    As someone who not only entertains the Clovis/Solutreans connection, but supports it... I think Solutean's main "proof" revolves around the maternal X2 we see centered around what is New York State. I haven't heard another good explanation of this haplogroup's curious location, and it's the key facet of this entire controversial conjecture. Of course this is only my opinion-- as we all know everyone has one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    As someone who not only entertains the Clovis/Solutreans connection, but supports it... I think Solutean's main "proof" revolves around the maternal X2 we see centered around what is New York State. I haven't heard another good explanation of this haplogroup's curious location, and it's the key facet of this entire controversial conjecture. Of course this is only my opinion-- as we all know everyone has one.
    problem is x2 in American Natives is a sperate subclade, not found in Eurasia ..

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't think that supporters of the Solutrean hypothesis are being racist, I just think that they're wrong. The greatest evidence against it is the temporal difference of a few thousand years. By the time Clovis appears, SW Europe was no longer Solutrean.

    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    I agree. What also intrigues me is the position of Q1a2a1a2 (L804) on the phylogenetic tree. Here is the current sub-structure of the Q1a2a1 (L54) branch:

    · Q1a2a1a (CTS11969)

    • Q1a2a1a1 (M3): the main subclade of Native Americans
    • Q1a2a1a2 (L804): found in Germany, Scandinavia and Britain (possibly Hunnic)
      • Q1a2a1a2a (L807): observed in Britain


    · Q1a2a1b (Z780): found among Native Americans, notably in Mexico

    · Q1a2a1c (L330): the main subclade of the Mongols, also found among the Kazakhs and Uzbeks, as well as in Ukraine, Turkey and Greece (probably Mongolian and Turkic)


    On the ydna Haplogroup Q project webpage where they list the locations for the L804+ people of their most distant known ancestor on their direct male line, the breakdown comes out as follows:

    England 8
    Scotland 2
    Ireland 2 (one unique surname)
    Sweden 1
    Germany 1
    Norway 1
    United Kingdom 1
    Unknown Origin 2


    Addressing this in particular: As Aberdeen indicated, this is not solid evidence of which direction migrations happened, it is only evidence of a relationship of some sort. The relationship is just as predicted by conventional models as it is by the Solutrean hypothesis, however the conventional methods would support a North Eurasian connection as opposed to the SH Atlantic connection. So, which has more support based on modern distribution patterns? I would argue that the Scandinavian tendency of L804 (and apparent Scandinavian origin of British samples) as well as the distribution of its closest relative clades is much more indicative of a North Eurasian connection. What looks remotely Solutrean about it?

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    I'm not totally sold on Solutrean, but I think it is now more likely than it was last week.


    After reading some of the other comments, here's a few points that I'd like to make.

    1. Although C-V20 is Euro-unique, Mesolithic "La Brana I" would have been only a descendant of Paleolithic Solutrean. So it is perfectly concievable that the European Solutreans were upstream of both C-V20 and Jomonese C-M8, at least. Also, while C-V20 has survived at asterik levels in Europe, there may have been other clades that did not survive, or at least are virtually undetectable as of yet.

    2. A number of sites in the Americas that are intermediate between Clovis and Solutrean time frames may preceed the Bearing ice bridge in the LGM. This puts us back to boat arguments or possibly another route, possibly across the arctic.

    3. People are forgetting that the Bearing Strait was not a one-way street. It's possible that some Siberian subclades of Q are descended from American ones. It could be the same for C clades in Northern Japan as well.

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    It's also possible that C entered the Americas via the conventional Bearing crossing route.

    It could be just another example of the 50th parallel hunting culture that spanned across the north of the globe.
    Maybe Solutrean and Clovis are related via a North Eurasian ancestor but not necessarily through an Atlantic connection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    2. A number of sites in the Americas that are intermediate between Clovis and Solutrean time frames may preceed the Bearing ice bridge in the LGM. This puts us back to boat arguments or possibly another route, possibly across the arctic.
    Even if they did this in boats, it is much easier to jump islands on small boats through Bering Sea (chain of Aleutian Islands) than traverse long distances at once going through Atlantic.





    3. People are forgetting that the Bearing Strait was not a one-way street. It's possible that some Siberian subclades of Q are descended from American ones. It could be the same for C clades in Northern Japan as well.
    It is very plausable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Even if they did this in boats, it is much easier to jump islands on small boats through Bering Sea (chain of Aleutian Islands) than traverse long distances at once going through Atlantic...
    True, but then we have the issue of where Solutreans/Clovis spear-heads were found. Not to mention the pesky myth about giants with red hair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    It's also possible that C entered the Americas via the conventional Bearing crossing route.

    It could be just another example of the 50th parallel hunting culture that spanned across the north of the globe.
    Maybe Solutrean and Clovis are related via a North Eurasian ancestor but not necessarily through an Atlantic connection.
    Perhaps there's was a small hunting culture somewhere in Siberia that created the precursor to the Solutrean and Clovis cultures, and at some point it split in two, with the future Solutreans going west and the future Clovis types, composed of Q and/or C men and X2 women, going east and crossing the Bering Straits into the Americas. The limited archeological evidence of the pre Solutrean and pre Clovis culture may be buried in a riverbank in some remote part of southern Siberia. I also think it's possible that both groups went west and one of them continued on across the Arctic ice to the Americas, but if that did happen, you're not going to find any archeological evidence of it. And a Bering Straits crossing is admittedly a much more likely scenario, simply because a person who's adapted to arctic living could easily cross on a small boat or even walk across at certain times of the year during certain periods during the past several thousand years. If the Straits are frozen, you just walk across, but I don't see that happening in the north Atlantic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Perhaps there's was a small hunting culture somewhere in Siberia that created the precursor to the Solutrean and Clovis cultures, and at some point it split in two, with the future Solutreans going west and the future Clovis types, composed of Q and/or C men and X2 women, going east and crossing the Bering Straits into the Americas. The limited archeological evidence of the pre Solutrean and pre Clovis culture may be buried in a riverbank in some remote part of southern Siberia. I also think it's possible that both groups went west and one of them continued on across the Arctic ice to the Americas, but if that did happen, you're not going to find any archeological evidence of it. And a Bering Straits crossing is admittedly a much more likely scenario, simply because a person who's adapted to arctic living could easily cross on a small boat or even walk across at certain times of the year during certain periods during the past several thousand years. If the Straits are frozen, you just walk across, but I don't see that happening in the north Atlantic.
    ever heard of Dyuktai culture, eastern Siberia ?
    14-19000 years ago
    they were mammoth hunters and developped Solutran-like spearpoints
    it is from these Clovis descend, 13000 years ago

    Clovis spearpoints dissapeared after extinction of mammoths and large mammals in nothern America
    Solutrean spearpoints dissapeared after extinction of mammoths and large mammals in western Europe

    where did Dyuktai people come from? from Mal'ta : they were R1
    who were their wives : X2
    who went west from Mal'ta : R1a and R1b
    who were their wives : X2 and U5 and others

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    Yes, I was thinking of the Mal'ta folk, but so far we don't have any evidence that the Solutreans were Y haplotype R.

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    I agree that the position of L804 on the haplogroup Q tree isn’t solid evidence of a Solutrean connection, but I think that the evidence favouring the Solutrean hypothesis in general is accumulating, with that being one of the clues.

    Regarding the ANE component comprising 19 percent of the makeup of the 8,000 ybp Motala6 guy in Sweden, that’s where more fun begins, because now we don’t just have the Y-chromosome and mtdna to work with; we have the whole genome. Maybe in the near future they could subdivide the ANE component further into different components, such as a Native American component, a proposed Indo-European component, etc. And perhaps we could ascertain whether or not the ANE component of Motala6 is closer to the Native American component.

    Also, regarding haplogroup X, I wasn’t aware until recently that in the sub-structure of X2, X2a and X2b are on one sub-branch, and X2c, X2d, X2e and X2f are not on it, at least according to Family Tree DNA: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results In this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez they analyzed nine haplogroup X sequences from the Altai, and all nine belonged to X2e, so that Altai connection of X2 to the Americas hypothesis seems to me to be a bit weakened now due to this.

    Oxford geneticist Bryan Sykes says in this video (from about 2:15 to 3:40) that he thinks haplogroup X most likely came to America from Europe around 10,000 years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jTAueCy4O0

    In Stanford and Bradley’s book “Across Atlantic Ice” they say Solutrean-like artifacts found at three different sites along America’s east coast have been dated to fall within the Solutrean Date Range. These sites are named in the book as: “Cinmar”, “Miles Point”, and “Cactus Hill”. They say: “The artifact assemblage from Miles Point includes biface projectile points, blades, scrapers, and burins that are technologically close to artifacts found in Solutrean levels 4, 5, and 6 in La Riera Cave that date to 20,970 +- 50 RCYBP.”

    In Across Atlantic Ice they do mention the Dyuktai culture. In their cluster analysis by “technology” dendrogram, the Dyuktai stone tools cluster most closely with the Beringian samples. However, in their cluster analysis by “tool type” dendrogram, their “Early Dyuktai” samples cluster most closely with their “Pre-Clovis” samples, and their “Late Dyuktai” samples cluster most closely with their Clovis and Solutrean samples. The authors say these two results were their only surprises in their analysis, and they say they may be attributed to small sample sizes. And they also say: “This analysis does not take flaking technology into account, so we do not think it is the best method to investigate possible historical connections.”

    And here’s a picture of Patrick Stewart beside a reconstruction of Kennewick Man: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ld...losqo1_400.jpg
    Last edited by JS Bach; 27-01-14 at 02:05. Reason: added a word

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