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Thread: Solutrean hypothesis: Native American Clovis Culture & NW Europe: (ydna Q, mtdna X2)

  1. #51
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    I'm of the opinion that mainstream archeologists don't want to consider Solutreans Theory because it would "open a can of worms". I've heard rumblings of South American findings that don't fit ANY models (too old in some cases-- hints of Australian DNA or skeltal reports in others). I think ancient humans were better sailors than we realize with our current understanding.

    Patrick Stewart link is a trip by the way! To what y-haplogroup do we think he might belong?

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    I've heard the same thing about some South American findings not fitting any models. Your guess is as good as mine.

    Yeah, it would be interesting to know Patrick Stewart's Y-haplogroup, and his ANE percentage (mine's 13.7%). I'll go out on a limb and guess C this time.

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    Really you have him pegged as a C?

    I would put him solidly in the "I" lineage.

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    Well, seeing how La Brana was C and no one guessed it right, I thought I'd say why not.

    But now that I think about it more, the eyes and wide jaw make me want to lean toward Q now.

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    I found this study of mtdna results for 16 Native North American tribes: http://www.researchgate.net/publicat..._United_States (Click where it says “FULL-TEXT” and go to page 4 where it has the table of haplogroup frequencies.)

    The Algonquin tribes all have the highest occurrences of haplogroup X. For the Micmac tribe (located in the Maritime provinces of Canada) 3 out of 6 belong to haplogroup X. Although admittedly, 6 is a small sample size. But the Wisconsin Chippawa and the two Ojibwa tribes (all located around the Great Lakes area) have the next highest frequencies of X, all at least 25%, and they have sample sizes of 62, 33, and 26. (I think Chippawa might just be another name for Ojibwa)

    The two Cherokee tribes have the highest frequencies of mtdna haplogroup C. (52.5% and 43.3%, respectively) I suspect that the ANE component from the Mal'ta boy correlates with mtdna haplogroups X and C among Native North Americans. According to Eupedia, “C1 has also been found among modern Basques and Catalonians,” http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1a_Y-DNA.shtml Again, right where Stanford and Bradley propose the Solutreans started their voyage “Across Atlantic Ice” to America from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    The Algonquin tribes all have the highest occurrences of haplogroup X. For the Micmac tribe (located in the Maritime provinces of Canada) 3 out of 6 belong to haplogroup X. Although admittedly, 6 is a small sample size. But the Wisconsin Chippawa and the two Ojibwa tribes (all located around the Great Lakes area) have the next highest frequencies of X, all at least 25%, and they have sample sizes of 62, 33, and 26. (I think Chippawa might just be another name for Ojibwa)

    The two Cherokee tribes have the highest frequencies of mtdna haplogroup C. (52.5% and 43.3%, respectively) I suspect that the ANE component from the Mal'ta boy correlates with mtdna haplogroups X and C among Native North Americans.
    The oral history of the Ojibwe/Chippewa state they migrated from the east coast. The Lenape who are called the “Old Ones” or “Grandfathers” in several Algonquin languages are thought to be the ancestral population. At contact the Lenape inhabited the area just south of the Míkmaq.

    There is no connection between the Algonquin and the Iroquoian tribes (Cherokee), The Algonquin are patrilineal and the Iroquoian are matrilineal. Even today, there is almost no intermarriage between those tribes.

    So finding a male/female haplogroups (X/C) connection between the Algonquin/Iroquoian tribes is not likely. If haplogroups X/C are found in those tribes then they arrived separately, because the Iroquoian tribes say they migrated to the northeast from the southwest US.

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    Thanks for the info. In the study I linked to there were no instances of haplogroup X among the Iroquoian tribes, whereas there was a good amount among the Algonquin tribes. Mtdna C1 seems likely to me to be an older lineage in the Americas, based on its wide distribution there. It also seems to me to have no less diversity in Europe than in East Asia, based on the number of mutations on the C1e (and C1f) branches, compared with the C1a branches. There’s a tree listing those mutations in a diagram on page 165 of this paper: http://digital.library.adelaide.edu..../1/02whole.pdf So far, most of the earliest evidence of human settlement in the Americas has been found on the East Coast of North America, but as the authors say in the book “Across Atlantic Ice”: “Of course, wherever we look, be it North Atlantic or North Pacific, we must keep in mind that the best evidence is undoubtedly below the waves on the continental shelves. This is also true in southwestern Europe.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    Thanks for the info. In the study I linked to there were no instances of haplogroup X among the Iroquoian tribes, whereas there was a good amount among the Algonquin tribes. Mtdna C1 seems likely to me to be an older lineage in the Americas, based on its wide distribution there.
    It seems we’re NOT talking about the same thing.

    Because your reference was to Y-DNA; I mistakenly thought you were pointing out

    1. "mtDNA X" was predominate in the Algonquin
    2. “Y-DNA C” was predominate among the Cherokee
    3. that combination only found in North America, had a correlation with European DNA/ANE

    I didn’t notice you were talking about mtDNA in both cases, I’m somewhat confused as to the point you were making.

    “Y-DNA C” is only found in North America, predominately in the west; where as “mtDNA C” is found throughout the Americas.

    I don’t see how mtDNA C & X would indicate an affinity with Europe, since mtDNA C is found primarily in Asia.

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    Yeah, I know it’s confusing with the different C haplogroups. I think y-dna C and mtdna C mirror each other though in that they likely were both much more prevalent in Europe in ancient times compared with today, though I think that came about through different migrations. Mtdna C has turned up in many ancient dna results in Europe: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml Also, to my knowledge there is only one distinct subclade of mtdna C1 found in East Asia, whereas there are two distinct subclades of C1 found in Europe, C1e and C1f, at least according to the paper I linked to: http://digital.library.adelaide.edu..../1/02whole.pdf with C1f being found in ancient dna dating to 7,500 years ago in northwestern Russia next to Finland. The other subclades of C1: C1b, C1c, and C1d are said to be unique to Native Americans.

    In another link I gave: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1a_Y-DNA.shtml if you scroll down to a heading in the middle of the webpage that says: “The maternal lineages (mtDNA) corresponding to haplogroup R1a” it gives a paragraph listing places where some of the ancient mtdna C has been found. Included there are the 4,000-year-old fair-haired Tarim mummies from northwestern China, 14 out of 20 of which belong to mtdna C4. C4c is a unique clade among Native Americans. Regarding the C1 that it says there has been found among modern Basques and Catalonians, I guess we’ll have to wait and see what subclades they belong to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    if you scroll down to a heading in the middle of the webpage that says: “The maternal lineages (mtDNA) corresponding to haplogroup R1a” it gives a paragraph listing places where some of the ancient mtdna C has been found. Included there are the 4,000-year-old fair-haired Tarim mummies from northwestern China, 14 out of 20 of which belong to mtdna C4. C4c is a unique clade among Native Americans. Regarding the C1 that it says there has been found among modern Basques and Catalonians, I guess we’ll have to wait and see what subclades they belong to.
    Origin and Post-Glacial Dispersal of Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups C and D in Northern Asia
    Excerpt: The present-day variation of haplogroups C and D suggests that these mtDNA clades expanded before the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), with their oldest lineages being present in eastern Asia.

    The pre-LGM origin of mtDNA C is in East Asia. Native American mtDNA originates from this period.

    All other variants of mtDNA in East/Northeast Asia stem from post-glacial re-colonization of northern Asia and the reason Native Americans and North/East Asians are not more closely related.

    mtDNA C entered Europe during the middle Holocene and European mtDNA is not closer to Native American mtDNA than the East/Northeast Asian mtDNA is.

    Native Americans have NO genetic connection to Europeans; in spite of the fact Europeans and Native Americans have a genetic connection to Northeast Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    The problem with the distribution of R1 and X2 is that it appears to be limited tothe eastern half North America. That would seem to suggest a rather recent origin, otherwise it would be evenly distributed over both continents.
    Also, any migration by foot would have to happen during the glacial maximum, I would think. There's still a lot of blue water at the North Pole that was iced over.
    really R1 among amrindians (Blackfeet) because they seem to be the very rare survivors of the cataclysme caused by the explosion of the meteorite, otherwise they have no DNA of epoch because everything burned during years on all northwest of the North America.(11500BCE)

    01Pacific_Ocean_laea_relief_location_map.jpgPossible trajectory

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    Quote Originally Posted by martiko View Post
    really R1 among am�rindians (Blackfeet) because they seem to be the very rare survivors of the catclysme caused by the explosion of the meteorite, otherwise they have no DNA of epoch because everything burned during years on all northwest of the North America.(11500BCE)
    What, every DNA burned but somehow people (Blackfoot) survived?!
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Very for the time being theory is, and for the survivors they are those located the most distant from the place of low atmosphere where blew up the meteorite, therefore least on the West
    it is determined the redemption of all kinds of big animals and arboreal flora, at the same time to Clovis in the precise date of the disaster (tiger, lion, huge buffalo, horses, huge bear, mamouth,....)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanda gikendaan View Post
    Origin and Post-Glacial Dispersal of Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups C and D in Northern Asia
    Excerpt: The present-day variation of haplogroups C and D suggests that these mtDNA clades expanded before the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), with their oldest lineages being present in eastern Asia.

    The pre-LGM origin of mtDNA C is in East Asia.
    I agree with that part. Mtdna C and D are on the East Asian “M” branch of the mtdna tree. However, I suspect y-dna Q (and R) probably originated in Northern Asia as well and were originally caucasoid, or at least mostly caucasoid. The dna of the 24,000-year-old boy from Mal’ta, South-Central Siberia is more closely related to western Eurasians than eastern Eurasians, and belongs to haplogroup R*, which is close to the base of Q on the y-dna tree.


    We can speculate as to when mtdna C entered Europe. My view is that mtdna C probably entered Europe with the proto-Solutreans, and from there crossed the North Atlantic to North America, but I’m expecting many people to disagree with that. I think the best evidence I have for that is contained in the book “Across Atlantic Ice” by Stanford and Bradley.


    To anyone who’s interested, Stanford gives an overview of the book in a lecture broken down into 6 videos on youtube. In the fourth part here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl3t4rRo3SM he talks about haplogroup X from around 4:00 on. From Wikipedia, Dennis Stanford is an archaeologist and director of the Paleoindian/Paleoecology program at the National Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    I agree with that part. Mtdna C and D are on the East Asian “M” branch of the mtdna tree. However, I suspect y-dna Q (and R) probably originated in Northern Asia as well and were originally caucasoid, or at least mostly caucasoid. The dna of the 24,000-year-old boy from Mal’ta, South-Central Siberia is more closely related to western Eurasians than eastern Eurasians, and belongs to haplogroup R*, which is close to the base of Q on the y-dna tree.


    We can speculate as to when mtdna C entered Europe. My view is that mtdna C probably entered Europe with the proto-Solutreans, and from there crossed the North Atlantic to North America, but I’m expecting many people to disagree with that. I think the best evidence I have for that is contained in the book “Across Atlantic Ice” by Stanford and Bradley.


    To anyone who’s interested, Stanford gives an overview of the book in a lecture broken down into 6 videos on youtube. In the fourth part here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl3t4rRo3SM he talks about haplogroup X from around 4:00 on. From Wikipedia, Dennis Stanford is an archaeologist and director of the Paleoindian/Paleoecology program at the National Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institution.
    I haven't read the book by Stanford and Bradley, so perhaps you could give me a brief explanation why you've concluded that any connection between Europeans and pre-Columbian Native Americans happened as a result of movement across the Atlantic, as opposed to a common origin in southern Siberia that resulted in the ancestors of Native Americans going across the Bering Straits and the ancestors of Europeans heading west from Siberia into Europe. I'll look at the Youtube videos and perhaps they will address my concerns, but can you summarize here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I haven't read the book by Stanford and Bradley, so perhaps you could give me a brief explanation why you've concluded that any connection between Europeans and pre-Columbian Native Americans happened as a result of movement across the Atlantic, as opposed to a common origin in southern Siberia that resulted in the ancestors of Native Americans going across the Bering Straits and the ancestors of Europeans heading west from Siberia into Europe. I'll look at the Youtube videos and perhaps they will address my concerns, but can you summarize here?
    Well, I think seeing Stanford presenting the videos starting with part 1 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tjoHMMPH90 would convey a far better explanation of it than I could ever give, but basically he looks at the archaeological findings and artifacts of pre-Clovis and Clovis sites in North America, compares them with the Solutrean ones in southwestern Europe, and concludes that the former are derived from the Solutrean. I’m not a stone tool knapper so I can’t say with certainty if he’s correct about that, but he backs up his points with lots of reasons for his claims, and I think he does it in an entertaining fashion as well. I know the topic of stone tools may not sound very interesting, but he has a very easy-going demeanour, is very experienced with the topic, and presents lots of graphs and pictures with his jokes sprinkled in throughout the talk.
    Last edited by JS Bach; 02-02-14 at 21:23. Reason: changed the font of the text

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    What, every DNA burned but somehow people (Blackfoot) survived?!
    Polymorphismes des groupes sanguins :
    The polymorphisme ABO is found everywhere in the world, except for the native populations of Central America and for the South where alone the group O is present.

    In the northwest of North America, they find the highest worldwide frequency of the group A to Indian Blackfoot and Blood.

    It is east of Asia where the prevalency of the group B is the strongest.

    The B group, it seems, penetrated into Europe from Asia in the course of the different waves of plagues, what explains that his frequency diminishes to an est/sud-ouest gradient, from Russia to the Basque Country.

    It is nonexistent in amrindiennes populations and aborigines of Australia.

    Maximum frequency of A is found in countries Scandinavians.

    In Europe, the population Basque, being supposed to do to represent the most ancient human group of this continent and having kept in the course of ages a strong rate of endogamy, present of very particular characters, with the strongest frequency of O and the weakest of B.

    It was represented of associations between certain groups ABO and various clever, contagious pathologies or thrombotiques what can let think of a phenomenon of natural selection.

    So, they showed at the individual's of group not O a significant increase of the risk of thrombotique at the same time arterial and venous illness.

    It could be in touch with a lower medium rate of the complex circulating mailman VIII

    – mailman Willebrand (about 25 %) at the individuals O.
    therefore it is also determined at home big proportion of A followed of B and O weaker and it in contradiction with other amrindiens.
    And as to the different europens'( Russian, Basque, Scandinavian) they seem to be comparable. They are therefore one descendants different.

    High frequency
    O negative: Basque and Icelandic
    A positive: German and Scandinavian
    B positive: Europeans (from Russian to basques)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    I agree with that part. Mtdna C and D are on the East Asian “M” branch of the mtdna tree. However, I suspect y-dna Q (and R) probably originated in Northern Asia as well and were originally caucasoid, or at least mostly caucasoid. The dna of the 24,000-year-old boy from Mal’ta, South-Central Siberia is more closely related to western Eurasians than eastern Eurasians, and belongs to haplogroup R*, which is close to the base of Q on the y-dna tree.

    We can speculate as to when mtdna C entered Europe. My view is that mtdna C probably entered Europe with the proto-Solutreans, and from there crossed the North Atlantic to North America, but I’m expecting many people to disagree with that. I think the best evidence I have for that is contained in the book “Across Atlantic Ice” by Stanford and Bradley
    The problem with this theory is: R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years, which does not coincide with the Solutrean period, so if there was a migration from Europe it was not the Solutrean.

    Secondly, there is no scientific evidence of pre-colonization R1 in the Americas.

    The only source for R1 in the Americas is Wikipedia. That’s because there are a few “core Wikipedia Editors" who promote the Solutrean Theory.

    Other core Editors and the public have pointed out many times that the references cited do not support pre-colonization R1 in the Americas. It’s only the Wikipedia produced maps which show R1 in the Americas.

    No Scientific study has ever produced a map indicating R1 is an Amerindian haplotype.

    The uniparental markers found in the 24,000 year old Mal’ta boy were Siberian/East Asian. Although those markers are found in Europe/West Eurasia today, those markers were not European/West Eurasian 24,000 years ago nor was the Mal’ta boy Caucasoid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanda gikendaan View Post
    The problem with this theory is: R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years, which does not coincide with the Solutrean period, so if there was a migration from Europe it was not the Solutrean.

    Secondly, there is no scientific evidence of pre-colonization R1 in the Americas.

    The only source for R1 in the Americas is Wikipedia. That’s because there are a few “core Wikipedia Editors" who promote the Solutrean Theory.

    Other core Editors and the public have pointed out many times that the references cited do not support pre-colonization R1 in the Americas. It’s only the Wikipedia produced maps which show R1 in the Americas.

    No Scientific study has ever produced a map indicating R1 is an Amerindian haplotype.

    The uniparental markers found in the 24,000 year old Mal’ta boy were Siberian/East Asian. Although those markers are found in Europe/West Eurasia today, those markers were not European/West Eurasian 24,000 years ago nor was the Mal’ta boy Caucasoid.
    Well I guess we’ll see where the evidence leads with those things in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanda gikendaan View Post
    The problem with this theory is: R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years, which does not coincide with the Solutrean period, so if there was a migration from Europe it was not the Solutrean.

    Secondly, there is no scientific evidence of pre-colonization R1 in the Americas.

    The only source for R1 in the Americas is Wikipedia. That’s because there are a few “core Wikipedia Editors" who promote the Solutrean Theory.

    Other core Editors and the public have pointed out many times that the references cited do not support pre-colonization R1 in the Americas. It’s only the Wikipedia produced maps which show R1 in the Americas.

    No Scientific study has ever produced a map indicating R1 is an Amerindian haplotype.

    The uniparental markers found in the 24,000 year old Mal’ta boy were Siberian/East Asian. Although those markers are found in Europe/West Eurasia today, those markers were not European/West Eurasian 24,000 years ago nor was the Mal’ta boy Caucasoid.
    Although I'm not a fan of the Solutrean theory, I'm curious as to how you know that R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years. If you have a lot of YDNA samples for remains that date prior to that period and that were found in those areas that currently are very high in R (Wales, Ireland and the Basque country), please tell me where this data has been published. Also, if there are scientific studies that show that all of the R1 YDNA tested in the Native American samples are from European subclades, please tell me where this data has been published (and no, a statement like "it is assumed" is not scientific proof). I'm sure some of the R1 results that have been found in Native Americans are as a result of European contact (the Cherokee are fairly mixed, for example) but I'm particularly interested in the results that people like Bortolini and Malhi found among Dene people such as the Chippewyan (62.5 R1 and zero other "European" Y haplotypes) and the Dogrib (40% R1 and zero other European haplotypes). If these results weren't tested any further than R1, we have to say that we have no data on that particular question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanda gikendaan View Post
    nor was the Mal’ta boy Caucasoid.
    Can you back this up with a reference. It got my curiosity..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanda gikendaan View Post
    The problem with this theory is: R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years, which does not coincide with the Solutrean period, so if there was a migration from Europe it was not the Solutrean.

    Secondly, there is no scientific evidence of pre-colonization R1 in the Americas.

    The only source for R1 in the Americas is Wikipedia. That’s because there are a few “core Wikipedia Editors" who promote the Solutrean Theory.

    Other core Editors and the public have pointed out many times that the references cited do not support pre-colonization R1 in the Americas. It’s only the Wikipedia produced maps which show R1 in the Americas.

    No Scientific study has ever produced a map indicating R1 is an Amerindian haplotype.

    The uniparental markers found in the 24,000 year old Mal’ta boy were Siberian/East Asian. Although those markers are found in Europe/West Eurasia today, those markers were not European/West Eurasian 24,000 years ago nor was the Mal’ta boy Caucasoid.
    R1 is a theory but not a certainty!
    What is proved to be it is the intersidereal catclysme which endes the physiognomy of the North America by ruining the colossal forests of the middle west and disintegrating colossal floes.

    ...... In October, 2007, a team of 26 researchers belonging to 16 institutions had moved forward the theory of the fall of several comets to explain the glacial period of 1300 years obviously responsible for the redemption of several animal kinds among which mammoths as well as division of the prehistoric culture said about Clovis, one of the most ancient having populated the American continent .......
    .....One of the coats of sediments rich in nano-diamonds of cosmic origin recuperated Clovis directly with relics of culture on the archeological site very rich in Murray Springs in Arizona (southwest).

    These nano-diamonds form in very high temperatures and under very strong pressures created by a cosmic impact. They find it in meteorites. Nano-diamonds can be produced on the Earth but only by a very strong explosion or by chemical vaporization......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Although I'm not a fan of the Solutrean theory, I'm curious as to how you know that R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years. If you have a lot of YDNA samples for remains that date prior to that period and that were found in those areas that currently are very high in R (Wales, Ireland and the Basque country), please tell me where this data has been published. Also, if there are scientific studies that show that all of the R1 YDNA tested in the Native American samples are from European subclades, please tell me where this data has been published (and no, a statement like "it is assumed" is not scientific proof). I'm sure some of the R1 results that have been found in Native Americans are as a result of European contact (the Cherokee are fairly mixed, for example) but I'm particularly interested in the results that people like Bortolini and Malhi found among Dene people such as the Chippewyan (62.5 R1 and zero other "European" Y haplotypes) and the Dogrib (40% R1 and zero other European haplotypes). If these results weren't tested any further than R1, we have to say that we have no data on that particular question.
    R1 is not an european but a Siberian, and first porter R1b has only 14000 years the first R1a old and only 12000 years old, therefore it participants do not belong to Clovis.
    Ancient European from the west the only ones did not belong to maitriser the techniques of size of the obsidian or flint
    better aspiring two seem to be Q3 and R1 compared with the Indian tribes of lowlands, but anything is proved and every rest theory, and everything remains to prove. And how to explain Mt DNA X and Y DNA R1?

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Although I'm not a fan of the Solutrean theory, I'm curious as to how you know that R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years. If you have a lot of YDNA samples for remains that date prior to that period and that were found in those areas that currently are very high in R (Wales, Ireland and the Basque country), please tell me where this data has been published.
    To be fair, she said "about." More importantly is her point, which can be substantiated by published data, that there is evidence against R1 being so ancient in the Solutrean region. Such evidence would include modern SNP diversity, modern STR diversity, and assorted pre-Copper Age ancient samples. Asking for much more at this point would be asking to prove a negative. There needs to be evidence for R1 in the Solutrean region during the Solutrean period before we can continue this side of the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Also, if there are scientific studies that show that all of the R1 YDNA tested in the Native American samples are from European subclades, please tell me where this data has been published (and no, a statement like "it is assumed" is not scientific proof). I'm sure some of the R1 results that have been found in Native Americans are as a result of European contact (the Cherokee are fairly mixed, for example) but I'm particularly interested in the results that people like Bortolini and Malhi found among Dene people such as the Chippewyan (62.5 R1 and zero other "European" Y haplotypes) and the Dogrib (40% R1 and zero other European haplotypes). If these results weren't tested any further than R1, we have to say that we have no data on that particular question.
    We have data on several tribes, from plenty of R1 carrying Amerindians who have joined public DNA projects, as I linked earlier in this thread. All have been apparently European lines. Sure, there are some tribes that haven't been sampled like that, and it would be worthwhile to sample them, but until that happens, "it is assumed" and it is justified to be assumed based on the weight of current evidence that R1 in Amerindians is European. Asking more at this point is, again, asking to prove a negative.
    Last edited by sparkey; 05-02-14 at 02:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    To be fair, he said "about." More importantly is his point, which can be substantiated by published data, that there is evidence against R1 being so ancient in the Solutrean region. Such evidence would include modern SNP diversity, modern STR diversity, and assorted pre-Copper Age ancient samples. Asking for much more at this point would be asking to prove a negative. There needs to be evidence for R1 in the Solutrean region during the Solutrean period before we can continue this side of the discussion.



    We have data on several tribes, from plenty of R1 carrying Amerindians who have joined public DNA projects, as I linked earlier in this thread. All have been apparently European lines. Sure, there are some tribes that haven't been sampled like that, and it would be worthwhile to sample them, but until that happens, "it is assumed" and it is justified to be assumed based on the weight of current evidence that R1 in Amerindians is European. Asking more at this point is, again, asking to prove a negative.
    With due respect, there’s another possible (if far-fetched) scenario for how R1 might have entered the Americas before 10,000 ybp. After the LGM ended around 16,000 ybp the ice sheets retreated for a few thousand years, but then the Younger Dryas came and the ice sheets would have re-expanded again until about 12,000 ybp, and they might have extended to the Grand Banks, off the coast of Newfoundland. And if it was as late as 12,000 years ago, the R1 might have even been R1b1a2 (M269) and hence be hard to distinguish from modern European R1b. There are speculations as to other ancient European cultures being descendants of the Solutreans, such as the Swiderian culture, 10,000 ybp in Poland and the surrounding areas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiderian I wonder if there’s some R1b1a2* in that region that matches some found in Amerindians?

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