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Thread: Solutrean hypothesis: Native American Clovis Culture & NW Europe: (ydna Q, mtdna X2)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    At the mergins of this trhead:
    have you some scholar analysis of the the La brana and Loschbour crania?
    No.

    based on my unique angle picture of their skulls (a very poor basis) La Brana could very well be a variant of 'cromagonn' or a cross of 'cromagnon-brünn' but with very very dominant 'cromagnon' features
    Maybe. I'm slightly more inclined towards a brünn variant. In particular the skull does not look cro-magnoid to me but more like a brünnoid with enlarged brain cavity and slighly less prominent bizygomatic and browridges than Loschbour. I think the brain cavity of La Brana is too globular and less rectangular to be cro-magnon. The jaws might be cro-magnid though.

    when Loschbour could very well be of typical 'brünn' phylum in its previous brutal features
    I completely agree. In another thread (the one with the photo collection of all ancient skulls) I mentioned that I have changed my opinion about Loschbour. I too think now that it is an unusually brutal Brünn.
    In my amateurish thought model I consider La Brana 1 and probably also Motala 1 to be a variant of Brünn just with less prominent bizygomatic and eye socket edge (brow ridges as part of it), resulting in a more globular (not brachycephalic) and less brutal skull overall. The jaws seem to be broader (cro-magnoid?) than in brünn. Motala 1 seems to deviate even more in that direction, being even less brutal.
    My very simplistic model:

    Loschbour : most archaic --> La Brana : less archaic --> Motala : possibly even less archaic, but hard to see

    But I don't insist to be right.

    : the element that later influenced some of the SOM culture human elements in the between Paris/Champagne-Eiffel regions before celtic domination...
    by the way, ancient scholars (not too "up-to-date") thought the these "brutal" types came with the solutrean in Europe, coming from Siberia: an old thought, it's true...
    the origin of solutrean could be in a region around southern Eurasia, being the siberian sites some of the subsequent eastwards colonizations as western Europe could bethe westwards ones ?
    Very speculative, but who knows. I was once speculating that it is the opposite in that old Cro-Magnon is originally more related to continental eurasia and potentially more autosomally ANE while Brünn being an adaptation to milder european climates (WHG). But I have actually no knowledge about possible origins.
    Last edited by ElHorsto; 09-03-14 at 15:43. Reason: changed Loschbour to brünn

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    by the way, ancient scholars (not too "up-to-date") thought the these "brutal" types came with the solutrean in Europe, coming from Siberia: an old thought, it's true...
    the origin of solutrean could be in a region around southern Eurasia, being the siberian sites some of the subsequent eastwards colonizations as western Europe could bethe westwards ones ?
    Expert flintknapper Dr. Bruce Bradley (co-author of "Across Atlantic Ice") compares these "Strletskayan points" found in Russia, southeast of Moscow to Clovis and Solutrean points here: http://www.primtech.net/info/strelets.html He says: "What amazes me most about the Streletskayan points is the advanced bifacial thinning technology that is twice as old as the Solutreen and three times older than our cherished Clovis points!"

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    Expert flintknapper Dr. Bruce Bradley (co-author of "Across Atlantic Ice") compares these "Strletskayan points" found in Russia, southeast of Moscow to Clovis and Solutrean points here: http://www.primtech.net/info/strelets.html He says: "What amazes me most about the Streletskayan points is the advanced bifacial thinning technology that is twice as old as the Solutreen and three times older than our cherished Clovis points!"
    And there's your common source, IMO. I think it isn't that Native Americans are partly of European descent or that Europeans are partly of Native American descent. Europeans and Native Americans are partly of Siberian descent and I think that if there is any connection between Solutrean and Clovis technologies, other than people finding similar solutions to similar problems, it's a case of a Siberian technology ending up in both Europe and the Americas.

    Having said that, if there is good archeological evidence of east to west settlement in the Americas, that should be looked at in more detail. But my own assumption is that any east to west movement found on the eastern half of the Americas is simply evidence of the probability that people travelled all around the edge of the Americas by sea before they penetrated very far inland. Coastal delta regions with lots of fish and migratory birds would probably provide and easier living for stone age people than hunting would, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Having said that, if there is good archeological evidence of east to west settlement in the Americas, that should be looked at in more detail. But my own assumption is that any east to west movement found on the eastern half of the Americas is simply evidence of the probability that people travelled all around the edge of the Americas by sea before they penetrated very far inland. Coastal delta regions with lots of fish and migratory birds would probably provide and easier living for stone age people than hunting would, I think.
    Here's a density plot of fluted points in North America: http://www.anthropology.ualberta.ca/en/The-Institute-of-Prairie-Archaeology/ResearchInterests/WesternCanadianFlutedPointDatabase.aspx

    There's also another plot there of "The distribution of fluted points (Clovis, Folsom, and small basally thinned) in western Canada plotted against the extent of retreating ice masses at ca. 13,000 calendar years ago."

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    Now that the Lazaridis et al paper has been published, I wanted to point out some things from the paper’s graph which they’ve titled here “Extended Data Figure 3 Admixture Analysis (K = 2 to K = 20)”: http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reic...Ancestries.pdf

    Regarding the ancient dna sample Motala12 (at the left of the graph): For K = 19 and K = 20, it shows it as belonging to a single component, the blue North European component. For K = 9 to K = 18, it shows it as belonging to two components, with the vast majority belonging to the blue North European component, and a bit belonging to the orange Karitiana (Amerindian) component. For K = 7 and K = 8, it shows it as belonging to three components, again the large majority of it belonging to the blue North European component, a bit belonging to the orange Karitiana component, and a bit belonging to the beige Siberian component. And for K = 4 to K = 6, it belongs to two components again, with the large majority belonging to the blue North European component, and a bit belonging to the Karitiana component. The Motala_merge sample is very similar, except that it has a smidgen of the beige Siberian component in a few more of the levels. In my opinion, this gives more weight to the validity of the Solutrean Hypothesis, as I think southern Sweden 8,000 ybp would be a place one would expect these Amerindian-like genes to be found if the theory were true. Also, one of the Motala samples (Motala6) tested positive for Q-L55, which is also carried by the Q-M3 and Q-Z780 Amerindians, although he tested negative for Q-L323 making the haplogroup assignment inconclusive. However, given that these Motala samples had the Karitiana component, it would make sense to me that Q-L55 would be a prime candidate for one of the samples from this burial of samples carrying this admixture. La Brana and Loschbour also have a bit of this Karitiana component from K = 4 to K = 7, and MA1 has a fair amount of it as well.

    Also, over towards the right side of the graph, the Algonquin component has some interesting results. For K = 20, it has some European-like admixture, but its proportions are strange. That is, the proportions of the blue North European, light blue Mediterranean, and light green West Asian components are very unlike most NorthWest Europeans of today. It has much more of the blue North European component, much less of the light blue Mediterranean component, and hardly any of the light green West Asian component, in comparison with contemporary NW Europeans. To me if anything, the proportions look more like those of present-day Lithuanians or Estonians. Could this admixture be perhaps from a Neolithic NW European population before the Corded Ware invasion? And could they have brought haplogroup X2, which apparently makes up about 25% of the Algonquin mtdna? The Ojibwa and Cree samples are similar, except the European-like admixture proportions look more like modern NW European samples – although I think more samples would be needed to test that case.

    Next to them is the Mayan sample. For K = 20 its European-like admixture is different, with it having a large proportion of the light blue Mediterranean component, a small proportion of the blue North European component, and hardly any of the light green West Asian component, from what I can tell. It also has a little bit of an African component. Although it’s hard to tell from the graph, I wouldn’t rule out it possibly coming from another pre-Columbian source. There are theories of ancient Phoenicians coming over to South America in pre-Roman times, and others coming via the Canary Islands, and so forth. And in this study: http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/08/...nd-native.html they apparently found Y-haplogroup Q1b in South and Central America. There’s a discussion of this in the comments to the article. One of the commenters says the closest STR match to one of the South American samples is found in Morocco.

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    Sorry for the back to back posts, but I wanted to point out a few more things from the Lazaridis paper and its Admixture graph.

    From one analysis result in the paper, “Motala12 fits as a mixture of 81% WHG and 19% ANE.” And from another method, which generated the Admixture graph with the number of groups (K) varying from 2 to 20, for about 13 of the 19 levels Motala12 looks like a 2-way mixture of a North European component and a Karitiana component (or an Amerindian component at lower levels). For instance, for K = 18, it looks like a mixture of about 98% North European and 2% Karitiana. So out of 18 different clusters, those are the two components the model generates for that 8,000 ybp Swedish sample. And unlike the Mal’ta boy, the Motala samples don’t have any West Asian, South Asian, or Oceanian-like components at different values of K.

    Also from the graph (around the middle of the paper): http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reic...Ancestries.pdf the large majority of the contemporary European samples have a bit of the Amerindian component at low levels (K = 4 to K = 8), the Sardinians and Basques being among the few that either don’t or just have tiny amounts. Some of the European samples seem to have tiny amounts of Amerindian components at higher levels as well.

    I suspect these ANE and Karitiana components from the two methods are related, and are also related to Y-haplogroup Q, specifically Q-L54 and its sub-branch Q-CTS3814, which contains the Native American Q-M3 and Q-Z780 sub-branches, as well as the Scandinavian / NorthWest European Q-L804 sub-branch: http://www.haplogroup.org/blog/2014/...-dna-lineages/ How these Y chromosomes got to dominate the American continents is a mystery, but I’ll bet they came across the North Atlantic and later mixed with the East Asian people who crossed by way of the Bering Strait. Although, how most Native Americans seem to have gotten most their autosomal dna from East Asians while so overwhelmingly carrying the Q-L54 Y-chromosomes remains a puzzle to me. Maybe there were early confrontations in the NorthWest, with the descendants of the Solutreans being the winners, at least with the males.
    Last edited by JS Bach; 30-09-14 at 23:31.

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    The Lazaridis et al paper now has a higher resolution version of the admixture graph available. And upon re-examination, I noticed that the Mayan sample has some Near Eastern admixture, represented by this very light cloud blue component that peaks in their “BedouinB” sample. The non-Amerind components of the Mayan sample appear to have four components: a light blue Mediterranean component; a dark blue North European component; a cloud blue Near Eastern component, and a dark brown West African component. I looked across the graph to find the population that best matched this admixture, and the sample that best matches it looks to me to be the Canary_Islanders sample. The graph is on page 11 of this paper: http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reic...Ancestries.pdf Does this connect the pyramids found in the Canary Islands off the coast of NorthWest Africa to the Mayan pyramids in Mexico? There appear to be similarities in the pyramids:
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_guanches_1.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    The Lazaridis et al paper now has a higher resolution version of the admixture graph available. And upon re-examination, I noticed that the Mayan sample has some Near Eastern admixture, represented by this very light cloud blue component that peaks in their “BedouinB” sample. The non-Amerind components of the Mayan sample appear to have four components: a light blue Mediterranean component; a dark blue North European component; a cloud blue Near Eastern component, and a dark brown West African component. I looked across the graph to find the population that best matched this admixture, and the sample that best matches it looks to me to be the Canary_Islanders sample. The graph is on page 11 of this paper: http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reic...Ancestries.pdf Does this connect the pyramids found in the Canary Islands off the coast of NorthWest Africa to the Mayan pyramids in Mexico? There appear to be similarities in the pyramids:
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_guanches_1.htm
    I would think the most parsimonious explanation is that a Canary Islander, many of whom emigrated to the New World, left some genetic material in Mexico.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    According to Felix's webpage, a pre-Columbian sample from Peru contains a non-Amerindian mtdna haplogroup: http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html


    It's listed as follows:

    Sample Name
    Sample Location
    Sex
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    Approx. Age by authors
    NA41 Laguna de los Condores, Peru Male L3 1000-1500 AD


    L3 seems to be an overwhelmingly African mtdna haplogroup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L3_%28mtDNA%29

    And as I mentioned in my post above, the Mayan samples in the Lazaridis et al paper have a non-Amerindian component that looks most similar to their Canary Islanders samples, and which contain a West African component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    According to Felix's webpage, a pre-Columbian sample from Peru contains a non-Amerindian mtdna haplogroup: http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html


    It's listed as follows:

    Sample Name
    Sample Location
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    Mt-DNA
    Approx. Age by authors
    NA41 Laguna de los Condores, Peru Male L3 1000-1500 AD


    L3 seems to be an overwhelmingly African mtdna haplogroup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L3_%28mtDNA%29

    And as I mentioned in my post above, the Mayan samples in the Lazaridis et al paper have a non-Amerindian component that looks most similar to their Canary Islanders samples, and which contain a West African component.
    Well, L3 is the parent haplogroup for all mtDNA haplogroups outside of L, including all of the typical Amerindian haplogroups. Do we know for sure that this is L3*?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Well, L3 is the parent haplogroup for all mtDNA haplogroups outside of L, including all of the typical Amerindian mtDNA haplogroups. Do we know for sure that this is L3*?
    I just noticed that two more of those pre-Columbian Peruvian samples are listed on that page as mtDNA L3: NA47 and NA40. The rest seem to have Amerindian mtDNA haplogroups: http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html

    According to Genetiker, NA47 has 11.27% Negroid admixture, and NA41 has 12.53% Caucasoid admixture, with the rest being Amerindian admixture: http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/...f-chachapoyas/

    Genetiker also gives a listing of mtDNA calls for NA41 and says he was probably B2: http://genetiker.wordpress.com/mt-sn...a-sample-na41/
    Last edited by JS Bach; 09-11-14 at 06:13. Reason: Added a line at end of post

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There’s a fairly new paper out by Stanford, Bradley, and Oppenheimer called “Solutrean hypothesis: genetics, the mammoth in the room” here: http://www.academia.edu/9562579/Solu...th_in_the_room

    From reading the paper, it seems pretty clear to me that few academics are willing to consider the hypothesis – or at least if they do, their publishers or peer reviewers won’t carry it further. This is evident in nearly all the sections of the paper.

    They spend nearly half the article discussing and analyzing the distribution and phylogeny of mtdna haplogroup X2, and estimate the age of its North American subclade X2a as perhaps being 18,500 years old. They also provide a graph on page of 760 of the paper of the distribution of X2 minus its largest subclade, X2b. The graph shows a clear European and Middle-Eastern distribution. And to me, it seems to correlate fairly well with the variance of R1b1a2 (M269), a graph of which was recently posted in post 2 of this thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n-R1-J2-and-G2

    They also discuss Y-haplogroup R1 in Native Americans, and note that one study indicated that 97% of the Native American R1 had the M269 SNP. They go on to say:

    “ ... STR (Short TandemRepeats – more rapidly mutating, but less reliable than SNPs) characterization of R1, however, indicates a substantial proportion of derived, STR-haplotypes not shared with Europeans (Bolnick, Bolnick, and Smith 2006, Fig 6b; Zegura et al. 2004, Fig. 5). This would not be expected if those R1 STR types were all recent European introductions, and could be consistent with being derived from more ancient founders. While better phylogenetic resolution is needed, these results, far from refuting the SH, are more consistent with its predictions than solely with massive recent male replacement.”

    Interesting. If only we had that higher resolution.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    So, Kennewick Man turned out to be ydna Q and mtdna X2. More specifically, Q-M3 and X2a.

    From the paper's supplementary information: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re14625-s1.pdf


    "7.2 Principal component analysis

    Principal component analysis was performed on a subset of individuals excluding the
    109 YRI individuals, using EIGENSOFT. The two ancient individuals were

    projected onto the components inferred from these sets of modern individuals by
    using the ‘lsqproject’ option of smartpca. Heterozygote genotypes were converted to
    homozygous prior to the analysis, by randomly sampling a single allele at each locus
    and individual. The PCA results for the subsampled Anzick-1 genome (Figure S5a)
    demonstrate that the effects of the lower coverage of the Kennewick Man are
    negligible, with only a slight shift towards European populations observed. Under the
    assumption of a higher fraction of contaminated and erroneous reads in the low
    coverage data, this suggests that the Kennewick Man’s actual PCA coordinates would
    be closer to the contemporary Northern Native Americans than observed. To provide
    a statistical argument, we also used a block bootstrap approach. We generated 100
    bootstrap data sets using blocks of length 5 MB. For each data set we reproduced the
    PCA analysis using bammds. In 100/100 cases the closets individual in the PCA

    analysis was Native American (4 Colville, 5 Cree, and 91 Ojibwa). This illustrates
    that despite the low coverage, we can assign the sample to the Native American group
    with strong statistical confidence. However, based on this particular analysis we

    cannot assign to a single tribe."

    However, on page 11 of this study: http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reic...Ancestries.pdf their admixture graph indicates that all the samples of their Ojibwa and Cree data have some North- and South-European-like admixture. I don't know if those are the same Ojibwa and Cree samples, but seeing that Kennewick Man was X2a and that X2a appears in something like 25% of those two tribes, and seeing from the graph that the European components account for about 25% of their bar graphs, I wonder if that 25% really is ancient European admixture? How they got the Southern European admixture that early (before the farmers came to Europe from the Near East about 7,000 years ago) remains a problem (especially for K=19 and K=20), but from K=12 to K=18, the Southern European component isn't that much.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Picard ~has~ to be Q

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    Hello I'm new here. I also do believe there could have been a solutrean offshoot that migrated to america by atlantic way following the ice sheets in the atlantic ocean and that they were possible descendants of perigordian-gravettian tribes, which may have spoken a kind of proto-language derived from another much earlier language group called by some scholars and linguists sino-caucasian-amerind-nostratic (scan) or according to some others nostratic-afro-asiatic-sino-caucasian-amerind (nasca), this proto-scan / nasca was spoken in the gravettian somewhere in central asia or eastern europe as an ancient north eurasian language. I'm not a scientist but this is kinda my theory.

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    If Q in scandinavia is of Hunnic and other eurasian sources then more nordics should be of hunnic ancestry because Q is found in small percentages even among eurasian turks say around 10% for groups that settled in europe.

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    Is the theory that Scandinavians got their y-dna Q from either the EHG during the mesolithic or by the Steppe derived CWC peoples completely ruled out? Q seemed exist in Afontova-Gora (I guess he is classified as ANE?) at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    Sorry for the back to back posts, but I wanted to point out a few more things from the Lazaridis paper and its Admixture graph.

    From one analysis result in the paper, “Motala12 fits as a mixture of 81% WHG and 19% ANE.” And from another method, which generated the Admixture graph with the number of groups (K) varying from 2 to 20, for about 13 of the 19 levels Motala12 looks like a 2-way mixture of a North European component and a Karitiana component (or an Amerindian component at lower levels). For instance, for K = 18, it looks like a mixture of about 98% North European and 2% Karitiana. So out of 18 different clusters, those are the two components the model generates for that 8,000 ybp Swedish sample. And unlike the Mal’ta boy, the Motala samples don’t have any West Asian, South Asian, or Oceanian-like components at different values of K.

    Also from the graph (around the middle of the paper): http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reic...Ancestries.pdf the large majority of the contemporary European samples have a bit of the Amerindian component at low levels (K = 4 to K = 8), the Sardinians and Basques being among the few that either don’t or just have tiny amounts. Some of the European samples seem to have tiny amounts of Amerindian components at higher levels as well.

    I suspect these ANE and Karitiana components from the two methods are related, and are also related to Y-haplogroup Q, specifically Q-L54 and its sub-branch Q-CTS3814, which contains the Native American Q-M3 and Q-Z780 sub-branches, as well as the Scandinavian / NorthWest European Q-L804 sub-branch: http://www.haplogroup.org/blog/2014/...-dna-lineages/ How these Y chromosomes got to dominate the American continents is a mystery, but I’ll bet they came across the North Atlantic and later mixed with the East Asian people who crossed by way of the Bering Strait. Although, how most Native Americans seem to have gotten most their autosomal dna from East Asians while so overwhelmingly carrying the Q-L54 Y-chromosomes remains a puzzle to me. Maybe there were early confrontations in the NorthWest, with the descendants of the Solutreans being the winners, at least with the males.
    This approach seems wrong. The only way Q has expanded to other continents is through walking, even the Eskimos simply walked and hunted on ice. Solutrean is speculated to have been was a maritime culture. Haplogroup I best fits the bill for that kind of thinking. However, Iberia is known to have harbored haplgroup C during the Paleolithic. Until we actually test a real Clovis skeleton(not the fake ones analyzed so far) or a Solutrean, we don't know to which Y-haplogroup Solutreans belonged to. Though Q is out of the question.

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    What I do know, confidently, is that N, O, P, Q and R descend from K2 and that K2* is Australian Aboriginal.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by GRDTobin View Post
    What I do know, confidently, is that N, O, P, Q and R descend from K2 and that K2* is Australian Aboriginal.
    K2* just means K2 which hasn't been classified in another branch - as soon as it is classified it will no longer be K2*. So far only a few Australian Aboriginal Y chromosomes have been fully sequenced but all K2(xNO, P) has been under S1-B255, and all the K2(xNO, P) tested for P331 has been positive, hence under K2b/MPS. None of the K2* found in other studies checked these SNPs, so there is no evidence they have anything outside of MPS or even S1. Actually there are many other cases of reported K2* besides in Australia, mainly in Indonesia if we count only those with a decent number of SNPs. (I wouldn't rule out the Indonesian stuff is pre-NO.)

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    It seems there is still no basis for this hypothesis...

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